Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And I showed him the Bible SAYS Jesus is the Son of God.

I understand why you pursued that member's denial of the truth, my friend. I don't blame you for that because I would have done the same thing in that situation. There comes a point when sharing the truth is no longer effective. Reporting posts that disagree with the Worthy Statement of Faith is my advice. I really don't wish to see this topic become locked to further discussion.  

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

I understand why you pursued that member's denial of the truth, my friend. I don't blame you for that because I would have done the same thing in that situation. There comes a point when sharing the truth is no longer effective. Reporting posts that disagree with the Worthy Statement of Faith is my advice. I really don't wish to see this topic become locked to further discussion.  

Right.  I've already told him I'm not interested in discussion with someone who denies the Deity of Jesus Christ.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, NConly said:

Sorry I have following and reading but I must have missed that verse being posted. did not mean to but in.

Here is what I posted:

He is 'firstborn' because His Father declared Him to be His Son way before the universe was created.

Heb 1:5 -  For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

And v.8 -  But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

God the Father calls His Son "O God".  Pretty clear.

[transmogrified]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:33 PM, The Light said:

On 9/7/2023 at 7:03 PM, transmogrified said:

When zech. And Paul said he would return with all the saints he did not mean part of the saints… saints who lived from Pentecost to before the tribulation are not all the saints.. those are part of the saints.. the saints that are missing is the OT saints and the tribulation saints.. they will not come with Jesus at the second coming according to pre trib doctrine.. the pre trib doctrine does not provide a rapture for the  OT saints or the tribulation saints so that makes  pre trib in violation of scripture.. when God said he would come with all his saints that means all these saints must be raptured..

Expand  

Good for you. I agree.

You do not agree with this as your next comment says there will be a pre trib rapture and another rapture at the sixth seal ...this is in complete disagreement with what Paul  said...I said there is ONE rapture that occurs ONE time for all saints, at the Second Coming, and at the last trump...you have two raptures which is in violation of Paul saying we shall all be changed in a moment...you CANNOT, absolutely CANNOT have two raptures at two different times and also say you agree with what I just said..nor can you have two raptures and agree with what Paul said, you can not even have Jesus descend down from heaven until the prophecies are fulfilled which obviously does not happen pre trib...scripture explicitly states 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..Peter says the heaven MUST receive Him until the restitution of all things spoken of the prophets...the sun and the moon have to be darkened before that great day comes...the sun and moon are not darkened before pre trib...they say there is no sign what soever that has to be fulfilled and he can just descend at any time -FALSE...he CANNOT just descend AT ANY TIME...Peter explicitly states the prophecies must be fulfilled, the anti christ must appear and the falling away must occur first...Jesus explicitly told his disciples 'WHEN YOU SEE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATE STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE....then know it is near at the door...why did Jesus tell them something he knew they would never see because the rapture would have taken them up to heaven before all this...this is actually ANOTHER of the false tenets of Pre trib...absolutely false that the church must be raptured before the anti christ can appear...Jesus would have been lying to his disciples telling his true followers that they would see him...
    One who taught this was John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary...he said the disciples were in no condition to know about the rapture so he didn't want to tell them at this time when he was talking to them in Matthew 24...NO...he was talking TO THEM...he was not talking past them or giving them a false story because they were in no condition to hear it at that time...Here is his quote:

 

Quote

Christ, having taught the truth of the second coming to the earth at a time when He had not even announced the rapture of the church, which was first mentioned in John 14 the night before His crucifixion, would hardly apply a truth like this to the rapture of the church at a time when the disciples knew absolutely nothing about it. Preferable is the interpretation that the subject of the second coming to the earth is continued in verse 45 in the same strain as in the previous verses. In other words, He is still illustrating and still implying the truth of Christ’s second coming to the earth.

The disciples were asking him direct questions...the disciples were his true followers...Walvoord tells us Christ would not be 'applying a truth like this to the rapture of the church at a time when the disciples knew absolutely nothing about it..." He is saying Jesus would not be applying the truth about the rapture at a time when the disciples knew nothing about it...and so in answer to the disciples question about what would be the sign of his coming and of the end of the age...he had to completely mislead them because at that time they knew absolutely nothing about it.. So because they 'knew absolutely nothing about the rapture,' he had to mislead them and tell them 'when YOU see such and such...' when he absolutely knew they would never see such and such because they would be gone....and then he goes on to mislead them more...'When YOU see the abomination of desolation...' completely overiding Pre trib's premise that they would NOT see this because they would be gone...NO NO NO...Jesus is NOT misleading them...He is TALKING DIRECTLY TO THEM, AND TELLING THEM THINGS THEY WILL SEE ......NOT THINGS THEY WILL NOT SEE. Walvoord is NOT telling the truth...Jesus was talking directly to the church, the true believers, the elect, and telling them what to expect.

The reason Jesus is telling them they will see this is because Jesus is telling the truth...the church that is living during that time WILL SEE these things.. Jesus was talking to the true disciples and he told them they would see these things...Jesus is not a liar...Jesus is not telling them a lie because they couldn't handle the truth at that time...NO NO NO!!! Absolutely NOT..Jesus is telling them they will see these things BECAUSE THEY REALLY WILL SEE THINGS THINGS...what does that mean? It means the true disciples will be there in the tribulation. It means the true disciples had not been raptured...it means the whole premise of the church being absent from the tribulation in the narrative of Matthew 24 is COMPLETELY FALSE

[The Light]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

You do not agree with this as your next comment says there will be a pre trib rapture and another rapture at the sixth seal ...this is in complete disagreement with what Paul 

These events are in scripture and are in total agreement with what Paul said.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

.I said there is ONE rapture that occurs ONE time for all saints, at the Second Coming, and at the last trump...you have two raptures which is in violation of Paul saying we shall all be changed in a moment...you CANNOT, absolutely CANNOT have two raptures at two different times and also say you agree with what I just said.

There are two raptures and it does not violate what Paul is saying. You disregard that Paul says the dead in Christ rise first. The scripture says that at this rising the body is changed from corruptible to uncorruptible. If this happens first then it is impossible for the alive believers "that remain" to be changed at the same time. 

However, at the second rapture, the dead and alive are changed at the same time.

In the pretrib rapture, the Lord Himself comes for the bride. In the rapture of the 12 tribes, which is part of the gathering from heaven and earth, the Lord sends His angels. Two separate events.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

.nor can you have two raptures and agree with what Paul said, you can not even have Jesus descend down from heaven until the prophecies are fulfilled which obviously does not happen pre trib...scripture explicitly states 'For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout..Peter says the heaven MUST receive Him until the restitution of all things spoken of the prophets...

Every man is his order. First fruits and then they that are Christ's at His coming.

Christ comes for the Church. They return to heaven. Heaven receives Him. See Revelation 4 for 24 elders with crowns showing Jesus has come and His reward is with Him and Revelation 5 for the kings and priests of the Church........before the seals are opened.

Then we have first fruits of 144,000. Every man in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming as Jesus comes for the harvest at the 6th seal. And heaven must receive Him UNTIL the restitution of all things spoken of by the prophets. That is why you have a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal.  

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

the sun and the moon have to be darkened before that great day comes...the sun and moon are not darkened before pre trib...they say there is no sign what soever that has to be fulfilled and he can just descend at any time

The sun and the moon are not darkened before pretrib, but they are darkened at the second harvest at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

-FALSE...he CANNOT just descend AT ANY TIME...Peter explicitly states the prophecies must be fulfilled, the anti christ must appear and the falling away must occur first...Jesus explicitly told his disciples 'WHEN YOU SEE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATE STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE....then know it is near at the door...why did Jesus tell them something he knew they would never see because the rapture would have taken them up to heaven before all this...this is actually ANOTHER of the false tenets of Pre trib...absolutely false that the church must be raptured before the anti christ can appear...Jesus would have been lying to his disciples telling his true followers that they would see him...

Jesus is talking to the Jews when He talks of the AOD. They are to flee to the mountains......to their place of safety that is prepared for them. This is FACT.

Further........

Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

    One who taught this was John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary...he said the disciples were in no condition to know about the rapture so he didn't want to tell them at this time when he was talking to them in Matthew 24...NO...he was talking TO THEM...he was not talking past them or giving them a false story because they were in no condition to hear it at that time...Here is his quote:

 

The disciples were asking him direct questions...the disciples were his true followers...Walvoord tells us Christ would not be 'applying a truth like this to the rapture of the church at a time when the disciples knew absolutely nothing about it..." He is saying Jesus would not be applying the truth about the rapture at a time when the disciples knew nothing about it...and so in answer to the disciples question about what would be the sign of his coming and of the end of the age...he had to completely mislead them because at that time they knew absolutely nothing about it.. So because they 'knew absolutely nothing about the rapture,' he had to mislead them and tell them 'when YOU see such and such...' when he absolutely knew they would never see such and such because they would be gone....and then he goes on to mislead them more...'When YOU see the abomination of desolation...' completely overiding Pre trib's premise that they would NOT see this because they would be gone...NO NO NO...Jesus is NOT misleading them...He is TALKING DIRECTLY TO THEM, AND TELLING THEM THINGS THEY WILL SEE ......NOT THINGS THEY WILL NOT SEE. Walvoord is NOT telling the truth...Jesus was talking directly to the church, the true believers, the elect, and telling them what to expect.

The reason Jesus is telling them they will see this is because Jesus is telling the truth...the church that is living during that time WILL SEE these things.. Jesus was talking to the true disciples and he told them they would see these things...Jesus is not a liar...Jesus is not telling them a lie because they couldn't handle the truth at that time...NO NO NO!!! Absolutely NOT..Jesus is telling them they will see these things BECAUSE THEY REALLY WILL SEE THINGS THINGS...what does that mean? It means the true disciples will be there in the tribulation. It means the true disciples had not been raptured...it means the whole premise of the church being absent from the tribulation in the narrative of Matthew 24 is COMPLETELY FALSE

Please don't base your argument on what some guy named Walvoord has to say. Lets base things on what scripture says. First off Jesus does talk to the Gentiles when He says....

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The people of Daniel are not the ones that can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS. It is the Gentiles whose fullness comes in at the pretrib rapture that can escape all these things......AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In summary, there are two raptures. One for the Church before the seals are opened and one for the 12 tribes across the earth at the 6th seal second coming of Jesus. Only the nation of Israel and unbelievers will be on earth when the wrath of God occurs as we are not appointed to wrath. And those of the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection, will obviously be protected during the wrath of God.

Isaiah 26

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Now let's prove something else false that you are claiming. You say the there is only one resurrection and it happens at the 7th trumpet. The seventh trumpet is at the END OF WRATH as proven by the fact that Jesus sets up His kingdom on eath at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In Isaiah 26 shown above we see that the people are told to enter their chambers until the indignation is past, which we see is the world being punished. However, note the verse prior..........

Isaiah 26

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

So we see that some dead are raised BEFORE the wrath of God, not at the 7th trumpet at the end of the wrath of God. We can prove this other ways also. So the claim that there is one resurrection and it is at the 7th trumpet........IS FALSE.......as proven by scripture.

[The Light]

21 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If this DOESN'T HAPPEN at the 6th seal 

until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

but the 2nd coming comes, WHEN does it take place?  

The second coming does occur at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

This is the 5th seal, great tribulation.

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

[Montana Marv]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Peter says the heaven MUST receive Him until the restitution of all things spoken of the prophets...the sun and the moon have to be darkened before that great day comes...the sun and moon are not darkened before pre trib...they say there is no sign what soever that has to be fulfilled and he can just descend at any time -FALSE...he CANNOT just descend AT ANY TIME...Peter explicitly states the prophecies must be fulfilled, the anti christ must appear and the falling away must occur first...Jesus explicitly told his disciples 'WHEN YOU SEE THE ABOMINATION THAT MAKES DESOLATE STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE....then know it is near at the door...why did Jesus tell them something he knew they would never see because the rapture would have taken them up to heaven before all this...this is actually ANOTHER of the false tenets of Pre trib...absolutely false that the church must be raptured before the anti christ can appear...Jesus would have been lying to his disciples telling his true followers that they would see him...
    One who taught this was John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary...he said the disciples were in no condition to know about the rapture so he didn't want to tell them at this time when he was talking to them in Matthew 24...NO...he was talking TO THEM...he was not talking past them or giving them a false story because they were in no condition to hear it at that time...Here is his quote:

Christ could not reveal anything of the Church to his followers, at that particular time,  for the mystery of the Church was not revealed until Pentecost.  He did reveal what would be happening to those of Israel.  So John Walvoord was right.  The Rapture was given to those of the Church, not to those of the House of Israel.

Those Thessalonians thought they had missed the "day of the Lord" because their persecution was so severe.  What does that tell us.  They new about "the day of the Lord", they also knew that the "day of the Lord" was to preceded a time of Great Persecution.  This sequence was taught in the early Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

There are two raptures and it does not violate what Paul is saying. You disregard that Paul says the dead in Christ rise first. The scripture says that at this rising the body is changed from corruptible to uncorruptible. If this happens first then it is impossible for the alive believers "that remain" to be changed at the same time. 

I show you a mystery...we (the believers) shall not all sleep (die) but we (the living and the dead) shall ALL be changed in a moment..the WE is NOT just the dead, the WE is both the living and the dead...WE (the believers) shall not all sleep...but WE (not just the dead, but ALL the believers) will be changed in a moment...

 the WE is referring to all believers and out of ALL the believers some of US will still be alive and remain...but WE (all the believers) shall all be changed...you are making it say 'I show you a mystery...those of us who are dead will all be changed in a moment, but the living will be changed at another time...THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID...the WE is NOT just the dead believers...the WE is all believers whether living or dead...By changing the meaning of rising first means Paul would be contradicting himself...but Paul was not contradicting himself. if he was meaning both the living and the dead would NOT be changed at the same time he would not have used the word WE shall all be changed...he would have said 'THE DEAD shall all be changed at the same time but THE LIVING' will be changed at another time...but he didn't...he said WE shall all be changed, and that is the way it will be.. when you quote 'it is raised in power' it does not mean it rises up into the sky with power...Jesus was raised in power, he had a glorified body some 40 days before he ascended up..HE DID NOT HAVE TO RISE UP IN THE SKY TO GET IT...NO...and we won't either. The change to immortality is NOT RELIANT on rising up in the sky..the change happens to both living and dead before either of them rises up...Paul is not contradicting himself...both groups are changed at the same time..saying it impossible for all to be changed at the same time is what is contradictory...

 

[farouk]

15 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

I show you a mystery...we (the believers) shall not all sleep (die) but we (the living and the dead) shall ALL be changed in a moment..the WE is NOT just the dead, the WE is both the living and the dead...WE (the believers) shall not all sleep...but WE (not just the dead, but ALL the believers) will be changed in a moment...

 the WE is referring to all believers and out of ALL the believers some of US will still be alive and remain...but WE (all the believers) shall all be changed...you are making it say 'I show you a mystery...those of us who are dead will all be changed in a moment, but the living will be changed at another time...THAT IS NOT WHAT HE SAID...the WE is NOT just the dead believers...the WE is all believers whether living or dead...By changing the meaning of rising first means Paul would be contradicting himself...but Paul was not contradicting himself. if he was meaning both the living and the dead would NOT be changed at the same time he would not have used the word WE shall all be changed...he would have said 'THE DEAD shall all be changed at the same time but THE LIVING' will be changed at another time...but he didn't...he said WE shall all be changed, and that is the way it will be.. when you quote 'it is raised in power' it does not mean it rises up into the sky with power...Jesus was raised in power, he had a glorified body some 40 days before he ascended up..HE DID NOT HAVE TO RISE UP IN THE SKY TO GET IT...NO...and we won't either. The change to immortality is NOT RELIANT on rising up in the sky..the change happens to both living and dead before either of them rises up...Paul is not contradicting himself...both groups are changed at the same time..saying it impossible for all to be changed at the same time is what is contradictory...

 

Hi @transmogrified The rapture of the church is linked with the 1 Corinthians 11.26: we are reminded to look back to the Cross and forward to the Lord's coming, in the Lord's Supper.

[DeighAnn]

11 minutes ago, The Light said:

The second coming does occur at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

This is the 5th seal, great tribulation.

"until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

I not asking you to state what you think or believe, 

I am asking you to PROVE IT for me.  I'll give an example of how I learn and I am asking you to explain to me in this fashion so I can understand how you arrived at what you put forth here.
This seems to be the ONLY WAY I can come to understanding.  All the words in the world go over my head it I don't them directly connected to the words of God you say they come from.  I understand it may not be your usual modus operandi but I would really appreciate it.  Once you have showed what is written and how it fits, I will be able to see how what I put forth no longer does and it will allow me to hold fast to what is good and get rid of what is evil.  I think we are both looking to get rid of any 'vain' words in our beliefs and as in Romans 12 'And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God' knowing '(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord'.


So when it comes to
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If there was something that immediately followed this verse that was anything like 'the Heavens opened and LORD OF LORD AND KING OF KINGS and his army followed'...

maybe I could accept the 5th seal contained all the information to be found in THE SEALED BOOK about the GREAT TRIB,

but with what actually follows and what is given as to what the signs mean and when they take place, it becomes impossible for the 6th seal to have anything to do with the return of the LORD except to point to HIS COMING NEXT. 

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood


one place 'the season' is spoken of

23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


and another witness to the Return of Christ being AFTER THE 6TH SEAL
"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:" Acts 2:20 KJV

5th witness "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." Joel 2:31 KJV

 

Some examples of how Sackcloth is used
8Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

"But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom." Psalms 35:13 KJV

"Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;" Psalms 30:11 KJV


  

continuing with the last verses of the 6th seal

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
 

Which to me, is almost a perfect description of 

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

EVEN the 'little season' they are told to WAIT for is covered
 

Heb 12
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying,
Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.








 

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Still Rev 13
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

This comes AFTER the moutains have been moved out of their places....

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Which looks like this in 19

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Which 'ends that season'.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,