Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

13 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Marv

I've not been following the conversation so perhaps you're  not insinuating thst Brother Free Frace is not Saved,I hope not...as thst would be in violation of our ToS.... if you're saying "IF one believes such & such" that less personal but still,hmmm?

So,if you don't mind clarifying ......

There's nothing wrong with debating different positions-getting personal,especislly regarding a Brothers Salvation are not acceptable

With love in Christ,Kwik

Nothing about anyone's salvation.  Doctrine is the issue.  There maybe 10 different doctrines or views on a subject.  And Does Scripture state that the Rapture happens at the Second Coming???  Christ says No, Christ says only God the Father knows.  Yet many place the two together..

When posting it is difficult to run a sentence/paragraph correctly.  Someone, Someone, then you is written or comes in play.  Then the "you" can become personal, when one has been implying 'someone" with doctrinal differences throughout the conversation..  Roy and I have doctrinal issues, WilliamL and I have doctrinal issues, I have Eschatology issues with maybe 80 percent of those who post on these threads.  Even with Revelationman I have some issues with timing. dougg I agree with mostly, except with timing issues.  Others I have no agreement with at all in eschatology. That is where it can become a battle of wits.  Scripture against Scripture as you know.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

That is because many O.T. saints are resurrected Post Mill..   Rev 20:5 - And the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended, This is the First Resurrection.

All the saints can not come back with Jesus at the Second Coming if some are not resurrected until after the MK.. Pre trib does not have any OT saints coming back with him, nor trib saints because they are never raptured up to heaven so they can never come with Jesus when scripture says all the saints will come with him...both Paul and Zech. said that...When Jesus comes all the saints will be with him...God will fulfill his word... all saints will come back with him...OT saints, NT saints, Tribulation Saints...pre trib even calls them OT believers saints, they also call tribulation believers saints, but pre trib CANNOT agree that all saints come back with and still be pre trib...it is IMPOSSIBLE for all the saints to return according to pre trib...pre trib says only the dead in Christ are in the rapture, when it specifically states the trib saints die in the Lord...Rev. 14: 13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth....' Pre trib does not agree all the saints come back with Jesus...Pre trib does not believe all the dead in Christ will be raptured...pre trib does not believe all will be changed at the same time...pre trib doesn't agree the living trib saints will be changed at all...they enter into the MK in natural bodies when Paul said we shall all be changed...pre trib does not agree one bride consisting of both Old and New Testament believers descends out of heaven as it clearly states...The many people John heard in heaven just before Jesus descended from heaven were not just saints who died from pentecost until the pre trib rapture...NO...these were ALL THE SAINTS UP THERE getting ready to come down to the earth...HOW DID THEY GET UP THERE? They got up there according to scripture, because pre trib can not be pre trib and still allow them to be there, so they HAVE TO DENY THEY ARE THERE, WHEN IT IS APPARENT THEY ARE THERE.

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I see no Bowl judgments listed until after the 7th Trumpet. 

You are not paying attention. Armageddon is over before the 7th trumpet is blown. 

Revelation 10

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

\No mention of them from the 1st Seal onward.  The 7th Trumpet contains the 3rd Woe.  The 5th, 6th and 7th Trumpets are the Three Woes.  Looking at Rev 11 17,18 - you have taken your great power and begin to reign, The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.  The 7 Bowl Judgments are all Wrath. 

The bowl judgements are Gods wrath, just like the trumpets are Gods wrath. They both take place in the same timeframe. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet. Want and different view? It's in the bowls.

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

Armageddon did not happen at the 6th Trumpet. For only 1/3rd of mankind are killed by the plagues.  Those rest of mankind who were not killed continued to worship demons and idols, they did not repent.  I see no Armageddon.

You should see Armageddon before the 7th trumpet because God has set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation reads like Genesis 7. There is one flood but you get three views.

In Revelation there is one wrath of God, but you get 2 views. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals.

 

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 

  Any you say the Post-Trib Rapture happens here.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Post trib rapture happens at the 6th seal. It is also a pre wrath rapture. However, it is not he Church raptured then, as the Church is raptured pretrib.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Post trib rapture happens at the 6th seal. It is also a pre wrath rapture. However, it is not he Church raptured then, as the Church is raptured pretrib.

There can be no pre trib rapture plus a post trib rapture at the 6th seal...all are changed in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye at the last trump...not some changed at one time and the others changed at another time...No...at the 7th trumpet is the time of the dead that they should be judged...not at the 6th seal, not pre trib...the time of the dead that they should be judged means the resurrection took place then, at the 7th trumpet, as it says at that time the saints, the prophets, them that fear thy name both small and great and the saints would be rewarded..no one was resurrected before the 7th trumpet, no one was rewarded before the 7th trumpet...the saints were not rewarded pre trib because the resurrection did not happen till the 7th trumpet ..John says they were all judged and rewarded at the 7th trumpet so no one was judged and rewarded before then

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

How much room does a soul occupy vs. How much room does and body with its soul occupy.

Irrelevant question.  Souls are immaterial and take up no space.

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

  How big is your abode.  Doing your calculations on body and soul as a unit.  How much of an abode do you need just for your soul.

Still irrelevant.

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

  Thousands of souls were under the Altar in heaven. We will be in the Father's House; which will have many rooms or mansions within it.  Does one float in or out of a room, or does one walk in or out of a room as Christ did, even through a wall or door..  12 gates in the New Jerusalem.  Does one float or walk through them.

God hasn't given us any details.

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

How does one get a body up to heaven once they died and it not be a resurrection.  First time for some things.

You'll know when you die.  Unless you survive the tribulation and will be "caught up" and changed in the twinkling of the eye, and then return to ground to serve in the MK.

9 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The thing is that Jesus Christ the Son does not know the time for the Bridegroom/Rapture.  So who influenced you and others.  Wasn't Jesus Christ or His Word.

I guess you didn't get the info that Jesus was speaking from His humanity when He said that.  My "influence" is the Bible, unlike yours, apparently.

If you believe that Jesus is God, you realize that God is omniscient.  However, maybe you don't really believe that Jesus is also fully human.  Well, that's what the Bible teaches.  

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

AMEN! God sets up his kingdom on that day that the 7th trumpet sounds...this is when the thrones are cast down and the Ancient of Days did set...this is the day of judgment for the righteous and the wicked...as he said 'and the nations were angry and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged...' if it says the time of the dead that they should be judged, it is apparent the time of the dead that they should be judged did not happen at another time...and what else happened? And that thou shouldest give reward to 'thy servants the prophets...and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, both small and great...' these are all the saints of all time...the OT prophets, the saints means anyone who was a saint, whether old or new, them that fear thy name means anyone who feared his name...this is all the righteous from all time being judged...not pre trib, not at the 6th seal, but at the 7th trumpet.

[transmogrified]

9 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

We will be in the Father's House; which will have many rooms or mansions within it.

No one will be resurrected until all are resurrected as Paul said, we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump...God does not extract people from pentecost to before the tribulation to be resurrected at a different time than all the other saints...it is apparent that all will not be changed within the pre trib scenario so the resurrection / rapture before the tribulation is a false hope and will never happen.

[transmogrified]

14 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

You'll know when you die.  Unless you survive the tribulation and will be "caught up" and changed in the twinkling of the eye, and then return to ground to serve in the MK.

What do you mean 'serve in the MK?' All the saints will reign as kings and priests during the MK...

[FreeGrace]

26 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

FreeGrace said: 

We will be in the Father's House; which will have many rooms or mansions within it.

No one will be resurrected until all are resurrected as Paul said, we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump

Correct.  I was commenting on John 14:1-3.  All believers will be in heaven "in the Father's house" with many rooms.  That passage is not about the resurrection.

26 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

...God does not extract people from pentecost to before the tribulation to be resurrected at a different time than all the other saints...it is apparent that all will not be changed within the pre trib scenario so the resurrection / rapture before the tribulation is a false hope and will never happen.

Correct!  1 Cor 15:23 is very clear, 'those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when he comes".  

I'd like a pre-trib aficionado to explain how any saved person won't fit the description "those who belong to Him".  It is obvious that ALL believers belong to Him.

And so all believers will be resurrected at the same time; the Second Advent.

[FreeGrace]

27 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

What do you mean 'serve in the MK?' All the saints will reign as kings and priests during the MK..

It will be at the Bema where believers will receive their rewards, or not.  All based on their faithfulness/lifestyle.  Some will reign with Christ, per 2 Tim 2:12 and Rom 8:17b.  But not all will reign.  Those who don't earn reward will serve Him gladly.

There will be no pride in our resurrection glorified bodies.