Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[seeking the lost]

20 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

What Daniel say's nullifies your interpretation of the Scriptures.  Daniel says the Just of Israel rises 1335 days after the A/D is set up.  Daniel was a prophet, you are not.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi M Marv

I agree, I am not a prophet.  I am only repeating without adulteration the words of John who is a prophet.  John is aware of all that Daniel had said.  It is John who tells us about the first resurrection and those who are included.  The list is limited and non inclusive of anyone not listed.  There is a warning about adding to these words.  Do whit this as you please but do not deny the words of the prophet John.

[seeking the lost]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Have you considered that the last day might be a reference to the last day of Satan's dominion, when Jesus takes His great power and begins to reign?  1 Corinthians 15:23-24 & Revelation 20:5 indicate that not all are resurrected at the same time.

Greetings Last Daze

In Revelation 20 There are two resurrections listed.  Everyone not listed in the first resurrection are included in the second resurrection stated as the rest of the dead.  They are not raised until the end of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection is limited to those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.  They are raise for the purpose of reigning with Christ.  All that I say is trying to be faithful to the text without adding to it or taking from it.

[seeking the lost]

15 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

 

And here's the resurrection He performed on the last day that got people to believe Him. The last day He spoke of throughout John 6 is the day He died on the cross: His last day.

Matthew 27:50-54 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁵⁰ And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

⁵¹ Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, ⁵² and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; ⁵³ and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

⁵⁴ So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

 

The resurrection on the last day was already fulfilled at the cross. Do not deny Jesus, He is the resurrection!

 

John 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁵ Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

Greetings PS 37:04

That would mean that the resurrection is past but I believe it is a future event.  There were two men that taught the resurrection is past recorded in 2 Timothy 2

.

Dealing With False Teachers

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

There is no doubt that Jesus is the resurrection and the life but the resurrection as an event when bodies come up out of the grave is yet future.

John is very aware of the life and teaching of Jesus and he places the resurrection as future.  The last day is a day in which the dead are raised and the books are opened.

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings PS 37:04

That would mean that the resurrection is past but I believe it is a future event.  There were two men that taught the resurrection is past recorded in 2 Timothy 2

.

Dealing With False Teachers

14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

There is no doubt that Jesus is the resurrection and the life but the resurrection as an event when bodies come up out of the grave is yet future.

John is very aware of the life and teaching of Jesus and he places the resurrection as future.  The last day is a day in which the dead are raised and the books are opened.

Absolutely correct.   Their were some teaching the resurrection as a past thing........and pual identified them as false.   The day of the resurrection is still future.

while we know we have the new resurrection life in Christ now.   The event of the last day resurrection is still future.  Their is a real resurrection coming

and JESUS speaks very clear ...............some will inherit eternal life..........but those who did evil............Not good , not good at all that end.

I think the reason most try and say this is past, is due to they don't want to believe in a event which occurs after death.  and the result is either a evil ressurctoin

which means a real torment for those who did evil and rejected Christ.  Too many going under the mindset of universal concepts and such things.  its linked

to this religion called interfaith too.    But you were spot on .   their is a coming resurrection day.......and it wont bode well for any who followed allah

or any other religion , nor who worked inquitiy............because all that is signs one knows not Christ , and only CHRIST saves one.

[Psalms37:4]

22 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

That would mean that the resurrection is past but I believe it is a future event.  There were two men that taught the resurrection is past recorded in 2 Timothy 2

No! That does not mean the resurrection is past. It means the resurrection on the last day was past. There's more resurrections ahead. Who's the one here who's believes in a Pre-Trib rapture? How can I be a Pre-Trib rapturist if I don't believe there will be a resurrection in the future? Who's the one who's been trying to tell you there's still at least 3 more resurrections ahead in the future? And a total of 4 resurrections if you count the two witnesses too. That has been me.

 

The 1st Resurrection occurs in stages:

1) Matthew 27:50-54. This resurrection happened already 2000 years ago when Christ resurrected the OT saints when He died on the cross on the last day. (This is past).

2) 1st Thesalonians 4:16-17. This is the rapture at the start of the tribulation. (This is future)

3) Revelation 20:4. This is the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs at the end of the tribulation. (This is future)

 

The 2nd Resurrection is a single event:

1) Revelation 20:11-13. This is the resurrection at the Great White Throne. (Wayyyyy in the future)

 

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

 

If you're gonna acknowledge Jesus as The Resurrection, you need to accept all the resurrections He performs, PAST and FUTURE, and not only at the rapture which you should tell others you think happens at the end of the millennium: a post-millennial rapture

 

On 8/9/2017 at 1:53 PM, seeking the lost said:

The rest of the dead are raised at the end of the thousand years.  This is the resurrection of everyone not included in the first resurrection.  This is the time of the rapture.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the only resurrection that fits the description of the rapture passages.  

Post Mill Rapture.  Reasoning of man and additions to scripture that accommodate a belief do not alter the truth.

 

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The rest of the dead are raised at the end of the thousand years.  This is the resurrection of everyone not included in the first resurrection.  This is the time of the rapture.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years is the only resurrection that fits the description of the rapture passages.  

Post Mill Rapture.  Reasoning of man and additions to scripture that accommodate a belief do not alter the truth.  

 

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John is very aware of the life and teaching of Jesus and he places the resurrection as future.  The last day is a day in which the dead are raised and the books are opened.

No, you're still pushing Revelation 20:11-13. Jesus isn't the one who does the resurrection here. That would be God.

Jesus does the resurrections of Matthew 27:50-54, 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Revelation 20:4. If you acknowledge Jesus is the resurrection, you need to accept all the resurrections He performs past and future, and not only the resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment which is actually done by God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings PS 37:04

 

btw, I'm Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil. And this is what I believe.

 

The 1st Resurrection occurs in stages:

1) Matthew 27:50-54. This resurrection happened already 2000 years ago when Christ resurrected the OT saints when He died on the cross on the last day. (This is past).

2) 1st Thesalonians 4:16-17. This is the rapture at the start of the tribulation. (This is future)

3) Revelation 20:4. This is the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs at the end of the tribulation. (This is future)

 

The 2nd Resurrection is a single event:

1) Revelation 20:11-13. This is the resurrection at the Great White Throne. (Wayyyyy in the future)

 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

On 8/18/2017 at 10:54 AM, inchrist said:

This is about the invasion of Judea by Sennacherib, and Jerusalem's sudden deliverance.

Not when you read the rest of Isaiah 29. During the tribulation, God will destroy the wicked and uphold the righteous. This never happened after the Assyrian invasion around 700 bc.

 

Isaiah 29:18-21 Good News Translation (GNT)

¹⁸ When that day comes, the deaf will be able to hear a book being read aloud, and the blind, who have been living in darkness, will open their eyes and see. ¹⁹ Poor and humble people will once again find the happiness which the Lord, the holy God of Israel, gives. ²⁰ It will be the end of those who oppress others and show contempt for God. Every sinner will be destroyed. ²¹ God will destroy those who slander others, those who prevent the punishment of criminals, and those who tell lies to keep honest people from getting justice.

 

 

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However if you're going to start recognizing recurring patterns then you would have a case.

 

The problem lies with you not recognizing hebrew "prophesies" are in fact recurring patterns until they reach their ultimate fulfillment.

 

Because if you are going to start recognizing recurring patterns, you will have a problem with your eschatology. 

I don't think you understand prophecy. When it's fulfill, every single detail of the prophecy will be accomplish all at once, every single word and every verse down to the tee, not a portion here and a portion there needed to being taken out of context. Similar events occurring regularly does not fulfill prophecy, they're just recurring patterns like other people's ideas of rumors of war. They're nothing new under the sun. 

Ecclesiastes 1:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁹ That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.

 

But the wars and rumors of wars Jesus spoke of involves famine, pestilence, ethnic groups and governments. If you can understand this, you'll know in one single verse: Matthew 24:7 Jesus described the Syrian Civil war. He also said when you see it, the end is not yet but a sign of birth pang (pretribulation). He also went on to say when you see all these things happen, you'll know the time is near - at the door! 

 

The disciples asked for signs of His return. He gave them the signs of Syria's Civil War in one single verse: Matthew 24:7.

 

Famines and Pestilences: Syrian Civil War

Syria: Assad forces 'using starvation as weapon of war'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26481422

 

Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Civil War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_chemical_weapons_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

 

Nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms: Syrian Civil War.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/25/middleeast/syria-isis-whos-fighting-who-trnd/index.html

The free-for-all in Syria will make your head spin

 

Syria's civil war is not only one of the bloodiest conflicts in the world today, it's also one of the most complicated.

It started out as an uprising against President Bashar al-Assad, but now it's a free-for-all.

ISIS controls a big chunk of the country, but they are under attack from all sides.

The Kurdish YPG and its allies are fighting them. Rebel groups, such as the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian Democratic Forces, are fighting them. And there are also competing Islamist groups like Jabhat Fateh al Sham.

That's just the half of it.

The Iranian-supported Hezbollah militia is backing Assad, while the US is backing the YPG. Turkey hates the YPG because it fears Kurdish separatism. But Turkey's letting the US bomb ISIS from one of its bases.

Russia supports Assad and is fighting ISIS. The US is fighting ISIS but it's also bombed Syrian military targets in retaliation for a chemical attack on civilians.

Confused? That's why we figured it'd be easier if we just drew you a picture.

 

 

Do you know why Jesus decided to use the Syrian Civil War as a sign just before His return? It's the most known and talked about event in the entire Middle East today. You don't even have to see the news on TV to know what's happening if you live in Israel because the events are happening only miles away from where you are. The purpose of Syrian war is to gather all the major players who will be fighting each other in the Middle East during the tribulation. Three of the four beasts described in Daniel 7 has already manifested and the third beast (Daniel 7:6) is already actively fighting in Syria and will be reveal during the tribulation. Daniel 8 already gives you the clue of where the countries will originate from: they are the kings of Media and Persia, Daniel 8:20. This is Iran with an alliance of 3 other countries just east of Israel.

 

The last player that will be drawn into the Syrian war before the destruction of Damascus fulfilling Isaiah 17 is Israel. Until you see Israel fighting in Syria -- mostly likely against Iran and Hezbollah -- the city of Damascus will not be destroy.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[Psalms37:4]

17 hours ago, inchrist said:

Two completely different time frames

Show me your understanding of Luke 19:11-27

I already know what Luke 19:11-27 is about and I'm doing my part fulfilling Christ's request. Why don't you tell us what it means since you're constantly bringing it up in every other argument.

Also tells us what your view is on the rapture. Are you a 6th or 7th trumpet rapturist or something else?

Go ahead, I'm all ears!

 

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Psalms37:4

[seeking the lost]

On 8/19/2017 at 4:41 AM, Psalms37:4 said:

 

btw, I'm Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil. And this is what I believe.

 

The 1st Resurrection occurs in stages:

1) Matthew 27:50-54. This resurrection happened already 2000 years ago when Christ resurrected the OT saints when He died on the cross on the last day. (This is past).

2) 1st Thesalonians 4:16-17. This is the rapture at the start of the tribulation. (This is future)

3) Revelation 20:4. This is the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs at the end of the tribulation. (This is future)

 

The 2nd Resurrection is a single event:

1) Revelation 20:11-13. This is the resurrection at the Great White Throne. (Wayyyyy in the future)

 

 

 

 

greetings Psalms 37:4

In regard to the rapture I am Post Final resurrection which is the second resurrection.

In the Revelation of Jesus which was given to us by John there are blessings and curses.  Revelation 1:3

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

There are three parts to obtain blessings, 1) read, 2) understand, and 3) keep the things that are written.  If you read and do not understand no blessing.  If you read understand but do not keep there will be no blessing.

The curse is a twofold curse.  Revelation 22: 

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Adding to the word or taking away from the word is not a good thing.  My view is an effort to strive for integrity of the word.  John gave this message to the Church to let them know what to prepare for.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

The things to come the Church must be ready for.  They will not miss it but will have to go through it.  This is from the amplified version Revelation 13:10 Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God’s people).

The necessity of patience and fidelity is for a people in the middle of this stuff.  The Church should be encouraged to prepare for martyrdom.  It is through tribulation that we enter the Kingdom.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Notice it is through tribulation.

American missionaries were teaching the Chinese people that they would escape tribulation and that they were not appointed to wrath etc.  When the communist took over millions of the Chinese Christians were tortured and killed for their faith.  After China opened to people coming back in they discovered a great bitterness.  The Chinese felt they had been lied to and could not trust the rest of the message.  There are millions of Christians today that are going through tribulation with joy.  They know their confession of Christ may cost them everything but they are ready and willing to lose everything that they may follow Christ.  Promise of escape is empty to them.

The main point that I believe do not add to the Word and the second is like it do not take away from the Word.  

The rapture is waaaaay in the future.

[Psalms37:4]

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

greetings Psalms 37:4

In regard to the rapture I am Post Final resurrection which is the second resurrection.

Well first let me commend you for being upfront about your position on the rapture.

 

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The things to come the Church must be ready for.  They will not miss it but will have to go through it.  This is from the amplified version Revelation 13:10 Whoever leads into captivity will himself go into captivity; if anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Herein is [the call for] the patience and the faith and fidelity of the saints (God’s people).

The necessity of patience and fidelity is for a people in the middle of this stuff.  The Church should be encouraged to prepare for martyrdom.  It is through tribulation that we enter the Kingdom.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Notice it is through tribulation.

Now let's get down to business. Are you trying to tell me here that in order to be saved, one must endure the coming 7 year tribulation (Daniel's 70th  week)? If this is what you believe, than let me ask you a few questions.

Concerning the Christians and the OT saints that have already passed away and will not be able to go through Daniel's 70th week, are they not saved? Are they going to hell instead?

Take John for example, the guy who wrote the book of Revelation. He's not alive today to go through the coming tribulation. And he wasn't a martyr either. Is he going to hell?

My question to you is, what is your salvation based on? Is it based on what you do or is it based on what He's already done, at the cross.....on the last day?
 

 

.

The other thing you got wrong here is Acts 14:22. It said the Kingdom of "God." This is not talking about salvation as in John 3:16. Do you know the difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven? The kingdom of God is God Himself involving a personal relationship. The kingdom of heaven is the place of heaven.

Have you ever heard the term, "When you come to the end of yourself, you find the beginning of God?"

It's when you're finally broken-hearted to the lowest point of being till you're humbled enough to admit you're wrong is when He'll reveal Himself to you and begin a relationship.

Deuteronomy 4:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁹ But from there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. ³⁰ When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice

A parallel verse to Acts 14:22 is Psalm 34:18, a related verse is Matthew 11:28. It is here when He'll send the holy spirit to you to begin a relationship and have Jesus led you from within.

Psalm 34:18 Good News Translation (GNT)

¹⁸ The Lord is near to those who are discouraged;
    he saves those who have lost all hope.

Matthew 11:28 Good News Translation (GNT)

²⁸ “Come to me, all of you who are tired from carrying heavy loads, and I will give you rest.

 

Once again, the kingdom of God is God Himself, having a relationship with Him inside you. Examples.

Luke 17:20-21 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁰ Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; ²¹ nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Matthew 6:33 New King James Version (NKJV)

³³ But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Matthew 12:28 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁸ But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

The kingdom of heaven is the place of heaven where God dwells. Examples.

Matthew 8:11 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹¹ And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 25:1 New King James Version (NKJV)

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

 

 

8 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

There are millions of Christians today that are going through tribulation with joy.  They know their confession of Christ may cost them everything but they are ready and willing to lose everything that they may follow Christ.  Promise of escape is empty to them.

So why are you waiting till the coming tribulation to be tested? Trying to escape now? Endure to the end means you begin resisting the devil's temptation now, the moment you accept Christ as your savior, not later when it's convenient. You have a lot to learn my friend.