Defense of the Mid Trib Rapture

[Guest]

I heard a pastor teach Mathew 24 is not a timeline but more of a shopping list........

 

~

 

And Just What Was The LORD Jesus Christ Suppose to be Shopping For?

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35

 

.... that's when we looked for a new church....

 

~

 

Amen~!

[tgw]

Guest_shadow2b_* wrote:

 

"    YES, JESUS was the FIRST to be raised from the dead-  "

 

 

Here all along  I thought Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus BEFORE Jesus was even crucified... And even he was not the first.

Edited June 18, 2013 by tgw

[Montana Marv]

Lazarus did not receive a glorified body,  he died bodily again.  Christ was the firstfruit to receive a glorified body.  A real resurrection body, He was able to go through doors, walls, not limited by the physical even though He was flesh and blood, He had a Spiritual body.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[RevelationWriter]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the mid-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a mid trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

I believe the rapture can happen after the first few martyrs refuse the mark of the beast, since they are shown clearly as being among the FIRST RESURRECTION..............since Paul says we will not procede the dead in Christ.........they must be resurrected First

Curious , Just exactly by definition , what do you think a rapture is and why is one used?

set aside any timing of 'when' it should happen and focus on precisely what it is and what its purpose is .

Since there are already untold millions of people who are already dead in Christ ,,there is no requirement for the people who refuse the mark of the beast to take place before the rapture can happen as there is no scripture that states the mark of the beast has to be implemented before the rapture can happen, as Paul has only stated that before Jesus returns to earth the son of perdition must be revealed.

Getting back to the 'why' the rapture happens, how do you define what a rapture is ?

Why is there such an event , what purpose do you believe it is for?

scripture is clear that when it happens believer go UP into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and NO people see it happen

At Jesus 2nd coming he seen by many people coming to earth

and as I said in the other thread we need to agree on how many resurrections there are

I believe in two

the first is the resurrection of all who died since Christ

and second resurrection all who ever lived on earth

if you agree then we can procede

~ John said he saw:

"Thrones and they that sat on them and Judgments was committed to them. - Matt.19:28-Rev.20:4

And second John saw: The Soul Of Those Who Had Been Beheaded For The Witness To Jesus and For The Word Of God, Who Had Not Worshiped The Beast, or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRST 1,000 YRS." - Rev.20:4

- So John only saw two groups of these people. And not everyone that has ever believed in Christ.

[chance]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the mid-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a mid trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

I believe in the pre trib, Christians are not appointed to wrath, just to say a little.

Edited July 26, 2013 by chance

[Guest]

.... the pre trib, Christians are not appointed to wrath....

 

 

~

 

Ah

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

 

Beloved

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

The Wrath Of God

 

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10

 

Is Not The Wrath Of Man

 

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.

 

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Revelation 13:6-10

 

You See

 

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2 Timothy 3:12

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the mid-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a mid trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

 

I believe the rapture can happen after the first few martyrs refuse the mark of the beast, since they are shown clearly as being among the FIRST RESURRECTION..............since Paul says we will not procede the dead in Christ.........they must be resurrected First

 

Curious , Just exactly by definition , what do you think a rapture is and why is one used?

set aside any timing of 'when' it should happen and focus on precisely what it is and what its purpose is .

Since there are already untold millions of people who are already dead in Christ ,,there is no requirement for the people who refuse the mark of the beast to take place before the rapture can happen as there is no scripture that states the mark of the beast has to be implemented before the rapture can happen, as Paul has only stated that before Jesus returns to earth the son of perdition must be revealed.

Getting back to the 'why' the rapture happens, how do you define what a rapture is ?

Why is there such an event , what purpose do you believe it is for?

scripture is clear that when it happens believer go UP into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air and NO people see it happen

At Jesus 2nd coming he seen by many people coming to earth

 

Daniel you don't seem to grasp two critical points......1. there are only two resurrections and 2. the dead in Christ are resurrected in the FIRST resurrection, before those who are alive are gathered up to meet the Lord in the air.

since we see who is apart of first resurrection, we know that it can't happen until they get among the dead in Christ

since the dead in Christ are raised first, we can conclude the (our being gathered to the Lord) does not happen until the dead in Christ .............are DEAD!

this sequence of events is clearly given by Jesus Himself in Mathew 24..........I kinda lean towards His clear and plainly written teaching rather than some false teachers secret escape that one can receive through some of the most vague, and obscure verses, reading into place by silence and complete disregard of context

 

I am not sure I understand your post, but let's see if I did.

 

Are you believing that the "first" resurrection must be at the end, perhaps I should say "the last day" as shown in Rev. 20, and since it is the first, there can be NO OTHER before it, therefore forcing the rapture of the church to the last day? Is this your argument?

 

We know there are only two resurrections: one is called "the first resurrection." The other is called "the second resurrection."

Since there are only two, there can be no other. Agreed so far?

 

So WHY did God say there is only two? We know Jesus was the firstfruits of some resurection. Since there are only two, His resurrection must be a part of either the first or second. There were some of the Old Testament saints that rose with Jesus. They are a part of one or the other also. Which one? Next, at some time the dead in Christ will rise...so they have to be part of either the first or second. We see that the 144,000 are in heaven, in chapter 14, so they too must have been a part of one or the other. At some time the Old Testament saints will rise, so they two must be a part of one or the other. Those that lose their head during the week will be resurrected, so they too will be a part.

 

Finally, all those in hell will be resurrected, and they will be a part of one or the other.  Did I miss someone or some group? Is there something you can see that separates all these groups? There should be! All the groups who are resurrected before the 1000 years are RIGHTEOUS. All those who come from hell are unrighteous. So at some time or other, before the 1000 years, all the righteous will be resurrected, EXCEPT those who will remain with natural bodies and enter the 1000 year reign of Christ in natural bodies.  Then after the one thousand years, all the unrighteous will be resurrected.

 

In this scenario, is the first resurrection BEFORE the second? Yes, of course, by at least 1000 years. But is that the intended meaning?

 

Notice these verses:

 

Mat 20:27 And ²⁵³² whosoever ^3739 1437 will ²³⁰⁹ be ¹⁵¹¹ chief ⁴⁴¹³ among ¹⁷²²you ⁵²¹³, let him be ²⁰⁷⁷ your ⁵²¹⁶ servant ¹⁴⁰¹:

Mar 10:44 And ²⁵³² whosoever ^3739 302 of you ⁵²¹⁶ will ²³⁰⁹ be ¹⁰⁹⁶ the chiefest ⁴⁴¹³, shall be ²⁰⁷¹ servant ¹⁴⁰¹ of all ³⁹⁵⁶.

Act 16:12

And ⁵⁰³⁷ from thence ¹⁵⁶⁴ to ¹⁵¹⁹ Philippi ⁵³⁷⁵, which ³⁷⁴⁸ is ²⁰⁷⁶ thechief ⁴⁴¹³ city ⁴¹⁷² of that part ³³¹⁰ of Macedonia ³¹⁰⁹, [and] a colony ²⁸⁶²: and ¹¹⁶¹ we were ²²⁵⁸ in ¹⁷²² that ⁵⁰²⁶ city ⁴¹⁷² abiding¹³⁰⁴ certain ⁵¹⁰⁰ days ²²⁵⁰.

 

Here are three verses that use the SAME GREEK WORD that KJV translated as first, as in FIRST resurrection. It could as well have been translated as CHIEF resurrection, because it is for RIGHTEOUS ONLY.

 

Therefore, one cannot say that those beheaded were in the FIRST resurrection at the end, so there could not be another resurrection PREVIOUS to this time. That is error. We KNOW Jesus was resurrected, as part of the first or PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection.

 

As you can see by scripture, this is NOT an argument against a pretrib rapture. JEsus resurrection was the FIRST of the chief resurrection, and it was long before the pretrib rapture. If we study Paul's rapture, we see that it comes as the TRIGGER for the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord, meaning, the moment the dead in Christ are raised, the SIGNS of the Day begin. The great earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising will be the FIRST sign, then comes the sun dark and the moon into blood. So we can easily see that the rapture will come one instant before the great earthquake at the 6th seal. This is long before the end of the 70th week and long (at least 7 years) before chapter 20.

 

Next, why would you expect Jesus to be speaking of the rapture of the church? The church had not even begun. Jesus was answering the questions of JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age, which will be the 70th week OF DANIEL. Daniel was Jewish. He was from ISRAEL. It is a mistake to look for the rapture of the church in the Olivet discourse, for it is not there. Did you not notice that the gathering in Matthew 24 is FROM HEAVEN? Paul's rapture gathers from EARTH.

 

The truth is, ONLY Paul got the revelation of the pretrib rapture. No other New testament writer mentioned it. So the ONLY place to find the timing of that rapture is in Paul's letters or in Revelation.

 

Lamad

Edited August 15, 2013 by iamlamad

[Guest]

.... Jesus was answering the questions of JEWISH men about the end of THEIR age, which will be the 70th week OF DANIEL. Daniel was Jewish. He was from ISRAEL.....

 

 

Jesus Was From Israel Too

And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. John 19:19

 

And Beloved, As I See It The First Resurrection

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

Is The Start Of The Eternal Age

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

 

Of The JEWISH Men

The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. Zechariah 12:1-3

 

With Their KING

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. Zechariah 2:8-10

 

~

 

Seriously Beloved

"But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people." Isaiah 51:15-16

 

God

"Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the LORD, the rebuke of thy God." Isaiah 51:17-20

 

Knows

"Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:" Isaiah 51:21-22

 

And Loves

"But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over." Isaiah 51:23

 

His Israel, The Peoples Of The Book

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

 

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

 

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

 

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:32-40

[The Temple Code]

My name is R. L. Flatter I'm a newbie here, I would like to say I my belief is in the mid tribe view, at least five months before the mid point of Revelations. My problem I'm having is uploading images this way I can better show a discovery I made about the timing sequencing to Revelations.

[ghtan]

Hi Temple Code,

 

I believe in a mid-trib rapture too. Few do, so it is always a pleasure to meet someone who does. Look forward to see what you have discovered. Unfortunately, I do not know how to load images either. Why not try to put it in words?