Conversation with those who believe Christ has NOT returned (2nd Advent) and will NOT be coming pre trib (rapture)

[DeighAnn]

10 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I've never heard anything about such trials.
I believe there will be those who don't fall for the deceptions.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Walter and Deborah said:

Great post and questions.

 

 

Love, Walter

I hope if you see something you think is wrong or just needs to be investigated more or you know where something goes you will jump in.  I think we can do this.  All we need do is pray for Gods wisdom and understanding and  help will arrive via the Holy Spirit BUT we need pray and to do it as a group if we are really looking for His Truth to be revealed (at least it is alot quicker that way)  Thank you looking forward to thoughts, questions and answers.  Thank you for the input.  Every bit helps...God Bless you and yours

[DeighAnn]

9 hours ago, OneLight said:

I'd like to discuss it, but I am very tired of the same arguments you are.    Good luck on that ...

Yup, the little foxes keep running and knocking off the flowers (the Song of Solomon) so as no fruit can ever grow.  

BUT we can do this.  Must do this.  It's why we are here.  So any input would be appreciated.  At the very least I think we might be able to find a group to do a 'soap box' restricted kind of thing, like minds searching being led by the Spirit through the Scriptures, not the laws of language.
 

[Selah7]

@DeighAnn

Regarding the Deadly Wound, here’s what I got. ….but I need to keep on studying.  After reading this, D, ask me your questions again, okay?  Not that I’ll be able to answer them right now.  I need to hear what you and others have to say.

Revelation 2:12  And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; these things saith He which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
 
Revelation 2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan`s seat is; and thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 

No one in history knows who Antipas is. ….because this hasn't happened yet, but he is one of the Elect for sure.

So what brought about the deadly wound?  I’m not sure if it’s Antipas being martyred or not. ??  In Revelation 13, a beast rises out of the sea (waters, people, Revelation 17:15) having seven heads (Nations) and ten horns, (Ten supernatural kings) and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.  This is Satan and his one-world system.

In the first half of the 5 months Satan is controlling the rulers of the earth from behind the scenes, gathering them together for his world government.  In the middle of the 5 months, Antichrist appears in Jerusalem (2 Thes 2:4).  Antipas goes after AC and exposes him and is martyred, and one of the nations, 6th (Head) gets the deadly wound.  That’s what caused the nation to get the deadly wound….because of what Antipas is prophesying (witnessing) (The sword of the LORD—Truth).  Then Antichrist (7th kingdom) heals the deadly wound and takes over.  
So who controlled Jerusalem first?
1  Babylon
2  Medo-Persia, Iran of today
3  Greece (Alexander)
4  Rome (Caesar)
5  Mohammedan's took the temple site itself – A.D.  636 to 1948
6  When both the good and bad figs partake of it, AND CONTROL, with no       peace. You have both entities from 1948 till now.
7  Antichrist
8  Satan at the end of the millennium for a short season.
 
These were the Kingdoms (Kings) down through the ages in Jerusalem (Temple Mount).  The Deadly Wound is to one of these heads (Nations), and it has to be the 6th Nation because it's the only one left before Antichrist takes it over. So what is the subject of Luke 21?  The TEMPLE; it's the key.

Who's going to receive the deadly wound, most likely? Well, who’s sitting on the rock?  The one sitting on the rock is going to get moved.
But then it’s healed by the antichrist and the world is made happy and everyone EXCEPT for those found written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world, are going to worship him. 
 

[Selah7]

@DeighAnn  Remember from Revelation 12:13-15, that Satan comes after and persecutes the "woman,” representing Christianity, those who keep the holy covenant by believing in Jesus Christ.

And as it is written, the vile person, who is the son of perdition, shall "do exploits,” which means he will act effectively, as in be very successful, in spreading his spiritual desolations which cause the "great falling away" spoken of by Paul in 2 Thes. 2:3.

And let no man deceive you by any means!

And this, the AC will do BEFORE Jesus Christ returns and we gather back to Him at the sound of the 7th Trump.

2 Thes. 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

…

check this out:

Daniel 11:29:  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

[30] For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

What is it that gives the false messiah so much grief to the point he becomes indignant?  It looks like he becomes extremely wroth with God's elect who give him a spiritual bruising—If you check out the phrase "the ships of Chittim" in Hebrew you will find it means "the appointed bruisers.”

BDB (Brown Driver Briggs) Definition #H3794kitt?y / kitt?y?y 
Chittim or Kittim = “bruisers” 
1) a general term for all islanders of the Mediterranean Sea 
2) the descendants of Javan, the son of Japheth and grandson of Noah

Bible Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Chittim, Kittim

Chittim, Kittim

(bruisers ), a family or race descended from Javan. ( Genesis 10:4 ;  1 Chronicles 1:7 ) Authorized Version KITTIM. Chittim is frequently noticed in Scripture. ( Numbers 24:24 ;  Isaiah 23::1,12  Isaiah 1,12 ;  Jeremiah 2:10 ;  Ezekiel 27:6 ;  Daniel 11:30 ) In the above passages, the "isles of Chittim," the "ships of Chittim, the "coasts of Chittim," are supposed to refer to the island of Cyprus. Josephus considered Cyprus the original seat of the Chittim. The name Chittim, which in the first instance had implied to Phoenicians only, passed over to the islands which they had occupied, and thence to the people who succeeded the Phoenicians in the occupation of them.

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Selah7 said:

I don’t think it has far to go.  We are the Fig Tree generation.  

 

Here’s my take on some of this.  I’ll be continuing in multiple posts.  Thanks for the thread, D.

Okay, so the Antichrist (AC) appears in the midst of the week (Daniel’s 70th week) (but those days have been shortened to 5 months).  The delivering up of the Elect does not occur until after Satan appears as the AC, and so this happens in the latter half of the hour of temptation.  Many will come out of confusion and into the Truth at this time, including the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth (Rev. 14).  This is the deadly wound, the Elect letting the Holy Spirit witness to the world.  These "strangers" from all the nations are all the men and women of God that will stand and prophecy against Satan and his system.  The sword that these "strangers” will use is the Word of God.  The people of God will have the “cloven” tongue; when the Holy Spirit speaks through them, it will be like it was in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.  When the Elect of God are speaking, all mankind will hear in their own language.

Ezekiel 28:6-8

6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

…
The 2 witnesses are here before AC arrival (Zech 4:14), about 10 days before?  Anyway, when the two witnesses show up, then it’s game over because shortly after that, Satan gets booted out, and he only has 5 months.

Note Revelation 9:5 concerning the locusts (a “locust” army of men).

Rev. 9:5 
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 
Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 
Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 

Ok, I am having a hard time following but THAT is exactly why I want to do this.  So please put those where they belong OR 

place these in order as you see scripture telling us and place them where they belong.  Looking forward to seeing where we are close and even where we are not.  Thank you for this contribution.  

Before the 1st beast rises

Before the 2nd beast rises

Before the deadly wound

Before the 2 witnesses arrive

After the deadly wound

After war in heaven and Satan and angels kicked out

After the image is set up and worship becomes mandatory

While Gods elect are being delivered up

Before the two witnesses are killed

After the two witnesses are killed

As Christ and army arrives - Satan destroyed and bound, those with mark destroyed

Once Christ arrives those destroyed resurrected having had their 1st death, the rest changed into breath of life bodies, never see death

Christs foot touches the Mount

The sheep and goats separated

The Millennial temple set up

The tribes settled around the temple

Reigning and ruling with Christ (nations coming to worship)

1000 years of Gods Truth being taught 

Final test, Satan loosed

Final war, judgment lake of fire 2nd death

Judgment rewards

New Heaven and New Earth



AS of right this minute, I believe that is the out line of the end times and I believe I can fit all scripture to fit without any conflict in that very order.  Only one thing I am absolutely sure of besides I got somethings wrong is SCRIPTURE ALONE WILL SHOW ME WHAT CAN AND CAN NOT BE.  

LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR OUTLINE!!!   and hearing if it was hard to do or not.  


For the past 5000 years plus the mystery of iniquity has been setting up shop for this final battle.  There have been some major missteps by him but that hasn't slowed anything down.  

Christ's first advent as Saviour has taken place, and He has gone to the heavenly throne of God awaiting the time of His own earthly throne and rule with the rod of iron that will commence with the Day of Vengeance in which EVERY knee shall bow.  

THE final generation has finally come into being with the 2520 year prophecy completion and Israel back on the map.  

What are the first things that have to take place or bring all together having been getting ready for a long time?  WITHOUT times and numbers and all the rest what are the bare bones that must take place


What we do know is that Christs heel has already been bruised and Satans head is coming up for a crushing but to do that he must first be sent down to overcome the world.  How will that take place?

We know that there is a beast, make that 2 beasts that need to rise up.  We know they will consist of things/rulers/kingdoms it takes to control the world.  To control the world takes controlling the money, what people know, how they behave and most importantly what they believe.  THOSE are some big beasts to get all situated. 

Once kicked out they are only going to have an hour.  SO the structure to implement this rule is going to have to be in place before they arrive BECAUSE there isn't enough time to do it once they get here.  THAT IS THE mystery of iniquity already working, and continuing on until that war in heaven gets them kicked down to earth.

We know that there must be a deadly wound to some part of that beast and a healing to set up the image for the world to worship and all control be firmly in Satans hand.  We know the 10 toes part clay and part iron are the feet of the day and the iron parts are the angels that rule with Satan.  

and ONLY after that does the Stone arrive to crush it all.   










 

[DeighAnn]

I am way behind, still on page one and brain going down.  Will try to catch up later.  

Just another thank you to all who have given support to this so far.  I will be PRAYING for all to be receiving some enlightenment from the Comforter sent to lead and guide us until Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth as it now is in heaven.  Again, thank you all and good night

[R. Hartono]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

.  I will be PRAYING for all to be receiving some enlightenment from the Comforter sent to lead and guide us until Christ returns

Thanks for praying 

Wise virgins Will Converse with wise virgins.

Left behind Will converse with left behind (Foolish virgins)

 

 

 

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, but it is through DEception.  Lies.  The whole world doesn't want to follow anyone or thing they THINK is against their god or God.  That is why Satan is portrayed as ugly and evil and all the things we think of as criminal.  But isn't that the rub? We are told he is beautiful and wise and he will be the first supernatural 'person' anyone alive on earth at the time has ever witnessed.  How much do you think it will take to sway people with signs and wonders?  Having 'healed' the deadly wound basically making the world belive he is a SAVIOUR of some sort isn't going to be hard at all.  MANY will be deceived.  Only those with the gospel armor will be able to withstand.  They don't/won't SEE him as evil in any way.  It takes spiritual eyes to see who he REALLY is.  Look at Eve our first example.  He came in with what SOUNDS like Gods truth but really isn't.  He sounds like he is going to give a leg up but is only pulling the wool over the eyes.  He is convincing.  Do you think it will be much different than that?  If so I would like to know how you see it.

Well of course. And I do not see it as much different. But the deception and lies are here. We don't have to wait. We have been lied to by every source of so called 'information' out there. Maybe all that's left is for the lie to be out in the open. 

Like superheros for instance. We see superheros in the movies all the time. Coming to save the planet. Fighting against some dreaded form of evil from the sky or the moon or another planet. And that's just one example. We have been primed to accept a superhero savior.

I don't see it as possible we can be deceived. 

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible."

The rest of them are deceived even now. I think what the deception is when the end is upon us it that the ones doing the signs and wonders is God or Christ. 

The pretrib lie is another example. What happens when the pretrib rapture doesn't happen and the world falls into chaos, falling apart all around us? These people were are so desperate for the rapture to take them away they will believe anyone who promises safety.

But again, they are already deceived. Only waiting for the deception to take physical form.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

These are the things I would like to work out in scripture without getting taken off course.  And I do agree, Daniels prayer 'thy holy city' is the place our eyes best remain.  Not to mention the feet and the 10 TOES being 'potters clay and iron'.  

 

Are you sure?  Those divisions we see so clearly ESPECIALLY when discussing Gods Truths are there for a reason.  They can't help but do what they do.  But we are to Watch, take note.  Those who would come against us many times 'know' more of the letter than we do, they possess lots and lots of wisdom and knowledge but it is ALL about MANS words, mans history, mans ways of 'dividing', but what they can't understand is the knowledge and wisdom only the Spirit gives.  Inspect the fruit, not the words.

It's more like what Paul says in 1 Cor 1; "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree together, so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be united in mind and conviction." 

I find this to be a huge source of trouble. We don't agree as one mind under sure conviction. I think it makes us look weak in the eyes of the world. Divide and conquer, and it worked, just like in the Garden. 

But we don't listen to the Spirit, do we? We all have our own desires that are more important. A big lie is that it's okay, that it should be that way, it's fine to disagree with the Spirit and Christ. Just like what Eve heard from the serpent. 

 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
 

Sure. Division between the believer in Jesus and the unbeliever, even in one's own house. Between husband and wife, father and children, brothers and sisters as you point out below; not in the minds and hearts of the elect however. 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

THIS IS OUR HOUSE

Luke 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

Luke 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

DO NOT be deceived by any man, MANY will come in HIS NAME but believe them not.  

THis is what is hard to do.  It is so easy to spin someone away from finding Gods truth by placing all kinds of different stumbling blocks in the way.   Mis direction TAKES UP VALUABLE TIME NEEDED TO PUT ON THE ARMOR.  ENDLESS DISCUSSIONS BUT NOT ABOUT GODS TRUTHS,  BUT ABOUT THE WORDS USED.  THose can be manipulated.  Gods overall plan CAN'T.  But if that overall plan can be KEPT from being found out, well,  job accomplished for someone.  Keep 'em in the details so they never see the light, isn't that something WE must fight against? 

Depends. The truth in the Spirit is about balance, moderation, control of one's self, hearing with spiritual ears and seeing with spiritual eyes. It's more about how we are fashioned in His image than a certain prescription for thought or action. 

"If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." Col 2

And we are told to examine everything and keep the good and toss the bad. Nothing wrong with examining the details as long as one doesn't lose themselves in it. 

I find the overall theme of balance and control in the individual is a common thread in the Epistles. 

 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Looking forward to finding a starting place and moving forward.  I am thinking maybe with Luke 21:24 or Dan 7:24 or 9:24 (cause we know those pretty well I think).  First off just going to see if a discussion can be had at all without 'being taken away captive by what others wish to discuss'. 

Any and all suggestions welcome.  Thank you for all you have written already

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Looking forward to finding a starting place and moving forward.  I am thinking maybe with Luke 21:24 or Dan 7:24 or 9:24 (cause we know those pretty well I think).  First off just going to see if a discussion can be had at all without 'being taken away captive by what others wish to discuss'. 

I don't know what you are seeing in Luke 21:24 But I can draw a parallel from Dan 7:24,

"And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings"

"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast." Rev 17

They are 10 kings who seem to have some backing or base but are not 'kings' until the beast rises. As a part of a wholly different discussion I find these 10 kings to be from the Islamic world. I don't see them as within or coming from any recognized world organization like NATO or the UN, etc. 

I don't think we are seeing the 10 kings right now. They are there just lacking any real standing or prominence. It's been predicted by many these 10 were from various world political organizations that have come and gone over the years, none of which came to pass.

Are you pointing out the infamous gap with the Dan 9:24 reference?

Overall when all this begins it's going to very fast and extremely chaotic. Much will occur all at once and the shock day after day will be the real 'new normal'.