Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

This speaks of immortal resurrection:

For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

There is no distinction made between the righteous and the wicked.  All die.  All will be made alive.

Are you meaning the wicked will not be cast into the lake of fire?

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Are you meaning the wicked will not be cast into the lake of fire?

I think it's clear that the wicked are cast into the lake of fire.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."  Matthew 25:41

Mark 9:47-48 & Revelation 14:11 also speak of an eternal fire and torment.  I don't think the wicked are consumed by the lake of fire. 

[transmogrified]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

For since by a man death came, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

There is no distinction made between the righteous and the wicked.  All die.  All will be made alive.

But the verse says all that are in Christ shall be made alive...the wicked are not in Christ..

[transmogrified]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

What the angel told Daniel is actually the solution to how to understand the first resurrection.   If it was only a chronological issue it could be easily seen the way you are seeing it. The first resurrection would simply mean the righteous are resurrected first at the Second Coming and then later the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but understanding it in this sense places us at odds with other scriptures plainly showing that it is not WE who are resurrected first, but it was CHRIST who was first resurrected and we are just taking part in that (first) resurrection.

It's not the 1st resurrection in an order. It's the primary or main resurrection. It's 'of import' not the first in a series.

The first resurrection is first in time in that Jesus was the first that should die and be resurrected into immortality...and when we are resurrected it is the resurrection unto life which would also be the best resurrection...

I use the word 'best' because the Greek word 'protos' is translated 'best' in the story of the prodigal son, when the father said to bring in the best robe...it does not mean it was the first robe he had, but it was the best robe he had. So it also states in Hebrews that they underwent many things that they might obtain a better resurrection..

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

It cannot be denied that Dan. 12: 2-3 are included in the wonders...when the angel said ALL these things shall be finished, he didn't say all these things shall be finished except the resurrection of the dead...he didn't say all these things would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked...of course the angel begins to describe events before the anti christ comes into position but they will also have been fulfilled by the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast...the specific kingdoms he mentioned will all come down at the Second Coming and will become the kingdoms of Christ...the time of trouble will have come to its end, Israel will have been delivered, so there is no justification of removing the resurrection of the good and the bad out of the mix no matter when the angel began showing Daniel these wonders...

Well that's my point. "Which wonders?" It's not all, clearly. Maybe it's Dan 11 to which Gabriel refers. 

There is no question that both the question Daniel asked and the answer that was given to him pertained to all the wonders he had just spoken about. Saying it might pertain only to Daniel 11 would make no sense in that there is no break in the narrative at all...Daniel 11 ends with 'and he (anti christ) shall come to his end and none shall help him...' then the next sentence is 'At that time Michael shall stand up, there will be a time of trouble, Israel shall be delivered..' all these things are tied directly into the time of when the man of sin comes to his end...the resurrection of the just is also acknowledged to take place at this same time...the only thing that does not fit within many of the constructs is the resurrection of the wicked but it is undeniably included in the mix. There is no justification at all in saying the angel is clearly not referring to all the wonders he just mentioned.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

If God wanted us to think the first resurrection means we would be resurrected at the Second Coming and the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years he would not have told Caiphas he would see him coming in the clouds.

But I don't think it's chronological nor can it be. Lazarus and the open graves were two resurrections before the 'first resurrection'. And from the implication of Paul here, "35Women received their dead raised to life again:"[Heb 11]  resurrections happened with some degree of frequency. 

Right..there were other resurrections before Jesus, both in the Old and New Testament...but none of these were resurrections where anyone ever died and was raised to immortality...this is where Paul said, 'we shall all be changed at the last trump..' this is where the believers receive immortality...all the other resurrections people died and were raised but then died again and are now awaiting the last day when all the believers will resurrected and receive immortality.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

I think it is a resurrection to life only. Paul specifies 'the dead in Christ' are raised and doesn't mention the dead 'not in Christ'. That could be just an oversight on his part and it's gap filling on my part to say the evidence isn't there so the fact of it doesn't exist, but it's also gap filling to say all the dead, wicked and righteous, are raised in 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5, 1 Cor 15, or in Matt 24 and Mark 13. In all these only the righteous dead in Christ are raised, no mention of the wicked dead. I could see one or two failures to include but not all of them. 

There is no failures. The scriptures you are referring to pertain to the righteous, while other scriptures are referring to the resurrection of the righteous, and some pertaining to the resurrection of the wicked and some that speak of both. I am not saying the first resurrection pertains to the wicked dead...it does not...even though both are resurrected at the same time, the wicked dead are not in Christ so they are not in the first resurrection.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

There are other ways to explain how "...every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him." apart from the resurrection of all flesh from the Fall to the Coming. First I would say Jesus arrives before the resurrection.

It is absolutely false that Jesus comes before the resurrection...the dead in Christ are resurrected and ascend up to heaven and Jesus descends back down to the earth WITH THEM..as it states in Zech. 14 and 1 Thess. 3:13 ...Jesus returns and all the saints are with him...for them to come with him, they have to be resurrected first.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Matt 24:

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c 

and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

So the order here is the Sign, the mourning of the nations, then "They will see the Son of Man" then the gathering. 

So the only eyes that could see Him are the living, not the dead. 

That is the point..the wicked dead are raised so they are no longer dead, but alive..that is how Caiphas sees Jesus, because he has been resurrected and is no longer dead.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

How many nailed Jesus to the cross? Two, three? The Centurion stabbed Him. So those who pierced Him are maybe 4 or 5 people. What if they are still alive? Not beyond possibility. Also interesting is the idea the slain lamb also covered the sins of those who sacrificed the lamb. Just saying.

It was not just those that drove the nails into his hands that crucified Jesus...

Here was Peter speaking to devout Jews out of 17 different nationalities on the day of Pentecost:

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Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

 

 

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

What if they are still alive? Not beyond possibility. Also interesting is the idea the slain lamb also covered the sins of those who sacrificed the lamb. Just saying.

As scripture shows, it was not just those who literally pounded the nails into his hands and feet that crucified Jesus. Even if all those who scripture states crucified Jesus were still alive, it would not do away with the fact of the resurrection of both the good and bad takes place at the Second Coming. There are many wicked people besides those who were there when Jesus was crucified who are sleeping in the dust of the earth..Revelation was only emphasizing the fact that every eye would see him, even those who pierced him...because all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth at one time, every eye will literally see him, both dead and alive. Most history I have looked at says Caiphas died in 36 or 46 AD. Peter was addressing devout Jews who were dwelling in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost...this is the list of those who were there:

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Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

 

The above Jews Peter said were guilty of crucifying the Lord:

 

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Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

The Jews in this setting were cut to the heart and asked Peter what they should do...Peter said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...and that day there were added some 3000 Jews to the congregation.

So in this setting certain Jews were converted, But Paul later said this concerning the Jews:

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For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

 Here Paul says these Jews had killed the Lord and they had not repented and they were not pleasing to God and that the wrath of God had came upon them to the uttermost. So the point is, some Jews that had crucified the Lord repented, and some Jews who killed the Lord did not repent, meaning of course that some died in Christ and some died in their sins. So it is not just 4 or 5 soldiers we are talking about when he said those that pierced him.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

There has to be another explanation as the resurrection only occurs after the arrival of Jesus and at the trumpet call and the great shout of the archangel. The resurrection does not occur before these. So no wicked dead could be raised to see Jesus. That would have to mean they are resurrected before His arrival, which from scripture is not the case.

I am not saying the wicked dead are raised before the righteous, and neither is the scripture....The scripture states all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth..both good and bad are gathered in one net, at one time, then separated...in other words, when the righteous are resurrected is the same time the wicked are...for example,  in a cemetery say there is one man that is righteous and the other is wicked, both of these will hear the same voice and both of these will come forth...the picture you sometimes see of all the righteous raising up into the air at the rapture is only showing the righteous rising...if the whole picture was shown you would not only see the righteous come out of their graves, but also the wicked would come out of their's as well. 

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

So you say. Jesus says, "‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. " not, "Come, reign over the nations with Me for 1000 years."

Yes, in that specific scripture it does not say 'Come, reign over the nations with me for 1000 years.' Just like the scripture in 1 Thess. 4 does not say 'And it shall come to pass on the last day that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first...' Because it does not say it in that specific verse does not mean the resurrection will not take place on the last day as Jesus said. All we are doing is connecting two places...one that says all that believe will be resurrected on the last day, and they we read 'and the dead in Christ will rise first,' we make the connection that the time frame for this event is on the last day and not before the tribulation as pre trib has taught.

Likewise, it does not say 'Come reign with me for 1000 years,' but it does say 'He that overcomes will I give power over the nations...' and likewise it says 'and we shall reign on the earth...' and likewise it says 'he has made us to be kings and priests...' When does this happen? It happens when he says 'Come you blessed of my Father...inherit the kingdom...' It is from this point onward the saints rule with Christ for the 1000 years.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

The particular time in Matthew 25 is the Second Coming WHEN the Son of man comes, THEN he sits on the throne of his glory...

But His throne is established forever. Not one day, 1000 years and then forever. 

Yes, we do not reign with him for one day, but rather for the 1000 years. It is broken up into that time span, because at the end of the 1000 years there is a new heaven and a new earth and it does not go into much detail about what it will be except it seems we will not be ruling as kings and priests anymore because all the wicked dead during that time will have been cast into the lake of fire and the only ones remaining will be saints and no more devil.

 

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

Yes, the resurrection at the great white throne is for all those who will live and die during the 1000 years...the resurrection of the dead at the second coming takes care of both the righteous and the wicked up to the time Jesus returns...remember, the goats, the tares, and the bad fish have already been cast into everlasting fire, which is the second death. Of course this does not disanull the Great White throne, for even those killed at Gog and Magog at the end of the 1000 years will be resurrected and judged shortly after they are killed by the fire that comes down from heaven.

Not really. The 2nd death has no power over those in the primary resurrection so no wicked dead there.

No wicked dead where? 

 

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Gog and Magog happen after the 1000 years and it said they are consumed by  fire and it is not said they are judged at the GWT.

Yes, fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them...but they died within the time frame of the 1000 years...the Greek word 'teleo' is translated in the KJV as:

1) Fulfilled

2) Finished

3) Expired

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And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: 

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

Strongs definition for teleo:

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to bring to a close, to finish, to end

with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command

with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil

 

The point would be that at the same time the Great White Throne judgement takes place is the same time that is called 'when the thousand years are finished...' meaning this is the break point between the end of the 1000 years and the new heavens and the new earth.

Those of Gog and Magog are said to be destroyed at this same end point in time worded as -"When the thousand years are expired, Satan shall go out to deceive...' 

So yes, you are right, it does not come out and say 'And Gog and Magog will be judged at the Great White Throne...' so we have to look at when the resurrection takes place...it says:

But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL the thousand years was FINISHED...so it seems the entire thousand years has to be fulfilled and THEN the resurrection, or the Great White Throne would happen...which in essence would make it AFTER the entire 1000 years had been fulfilled.

It seems to say the same thing about when Satan is released...it says:

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And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 

So if Satan is released AFTER the 1000 years and the Great White Throne takes place AFTER the 1000 years then Gog and Magog who was destroyed by fire would be included in the group identified as 'the dead.':

'And death and hell gave up the dead which were in them...'

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2022 at 6:46 AM, transmogrified said:

What cannot be fulfilled in the 1335 days?

This wonder:

"Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.c" Dan 12

Paul said we would all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...it only takes a twinkle of an eye...what do you think can not be accomplished in the 1335 days?

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Still can't get past: "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

So the 2nd death has no power over those in this resurrection, can't be any wicked here. Those in this resurrection are priests of God and Jesus, no wicked dead here. They reign with Jesus for 1000 years, no wicked dead do that.

If the 2nd death has no power in this main resurrection then no wicked dead are raised here. If there were then the 2nd death would have power over some participants in this general, primary resurrection. It's impossible if we stay in the text.

This may be a misunderstanding...I am not saying the wicked dead will be in the first resurrection...they will not be even though they are resurrected at the same time...they are not in Christ so they are not in the first resurrection.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Really doesn't say 2nd coming though. Scripture says, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne"

I don't understand at all what you are saying..What do you mean 'it really doesn't say Second Coming,' when the scripture you are quoting says 'When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him...' This is the Second Coming.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

We know He will sit on this throne for 1000 years. His Throne is forever. We know "The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete."

Yes, of course. He comes at the Second Coming and then reigns on the earth for 1000 years.

On 4/30/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Can't get away from the fact the 2nd death has no power over those in the 1st resurrection, and here the 2nd death has power. This isn't even saying all those before the GWT are guilty, judged guilty, convicted, and cast into lake of fire. So if that's the case then this isn't only the wicked dead, there are some found not guilty. The standard is, "IF anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life".

Yes, I am not saying the wicked dead are in the first resurrection...there will be both groups, the righteous and the wicked at the Great White Throne like you say.

 

[Diaste]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:59 AM, transmogrified said:

Right...the chronological aspect was fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected in that he was the first that should rise and enter into glory..

I am sorry, but I think maybe there is a misunderstanding of what I am saying about the wicked dead...I am not saying they are in the first resurrection...they are not in Christ, so even though they get resurrected at the same time as the righteous does not mean they are in the first resurrection...so for example, a righteous person is buried alongside a wicked person and the resurrection happens...the righteous will be in the resurrection of the just, and the wicked will be in the resurrection of the unjust...because both rise at the same time does not make him in the first resurrection...remember the net...all are gathered at the same time, then the good are kept and the bad are cast away...

For my part the idea of the lowering the net and filling it with fish is analogous to fishing for men. "And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men."

Hmm...seems that if all are resurrected, righteous and wicked, at the same time they are very much part of the protos resurrection. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The first resurrection is first in time in that Jesus was the first that should die and be resurrected into immortality...and when we are resurrected it is the resurrection unto life which would also be the best resurrection...

I use the word 'best' because the Greek word 'protos' is translated 'best' in the story of the prodigal son, when the father said to bring in the best robe...it does not mean it was the first robe he had, but it was the best robe he had. So it also states in Hebrews that they underwent many things that they might obtain a better resurrection..

 

There is no question that both the question Daniel asked and the answer that was given to him pertained to all the wonders he had just spoken about. Saying it might pertain only to Daniel 11 would make no sense in that there is no break in the narrative at all...Daniel 11 ends with 'and he (anti christ) shall come to his end and none shall help him...' then the next sentence is 'At that time Michael shall stand up, there will be a time of trouble, Israel shall be delivered..' all these things are tied directly into the time of when the man of sin comes to his end...the resurrection of the just is also acknowledged to take place at this same time...the only thing that does not fit within many of the constructs is the resurrection of the wicked but it is undeniably included in the mix. There is no justification at all in saying the angel is clearly not referring to all the wonders he just mentioned.

Yes. Just saying that we don't know which wonders are the focus. Could be all of Dan 11. The visitation of Gabriel and the giving of the prophecy is unbroken from Dan 9 to the end of Dan 12. These 4 chapters are one event, the visitation of Gabriel, and a single prophecy. 

I have the one issue where Dan 12:3 cannot be fulfilled in 1335 day, since it's an eternal proclamation. So again, which wonders are included in the question, "How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?"

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Right..there were other resurrections before Jesus, both in the Old and New Testament...but none of these were resurrections where anyone ever died and was raised to immortality...this is where Paul said, 'we shall all be changed at the last trump..' this is where the believers receive immortality...all the other resurrections people died and were raised but then died again and are now awaiting the last day when all the believers will resurrected and receive immortality.

I have talked about this before. I'm not prepared to say the previous resurrections had no element of immortality. The life of those resurrected before the Ascension is unknown to me. It would be an assumption on my part to say they were, or were not, immortal as I have no evidence of either. 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is no failures. The scriptures you are referring to pertain to the righteous, while other scriptures are referring to the resurrection of the righteous, and some pertaining to the resurrection of the wicked and some that speak of both. I am not saying the first resurrection pertains to the wicked dead...it does not...even though both are resurrected at the same time, the wicked dead are not in Christ so they are not in the first resurrection.

Then I'm not understanding which resurrection is being discussed. I thought it was Rev 20:5-6

 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is absolutely false that Jesus comes before the resurrection...the dead in Christ are resurrected and ascend up to heaven and Jesus descends back down to the earth WITH THEM..as it states in Zech. 14 and 1 Thess. 3:13 ...Jesus returns and all the saints are with him...for them to come with him, they have to be resurrected first.

Huh? 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

The Lord descends then:

 and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

And only after the Lord descends and the dead are raised

17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

 God is bringing the righteous dead with Jesus in terms of a resurrection of the dead, not a return to earth. 

 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

That is the point..the wicked dead are raised so they are no longer dead, but alive..that is how Caiphas sees Jesus, because he has been resurrected and is no longer dead.

Perhaps. 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

As scripture shows, it was not just those who literally pounded the nails into his hands and feet that crucified Jesus. Even if all those who scripture states crucified Jesus were still alive, it would not do away with the fact of the resurrection of both the good and bad takes place at the Second Coming. There are many wicked people besides those who were there when Jesus was crucified who are sleeping in the dust of the earth..Revelation was only emphasizing the fact that every eye would see him, even those who pierced him...because all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth at one time, every eye will literally see him, both dead and alive. Most history I have looked at says Caiphas died in 36 or 46 AD. Peter was addressing devout Jews who were dwelling in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost...this is the list of those who were there:

The above Jews Peter said were guilty of crucifying the Lord:

 

The Jews in this setting were cut to the heart and asked Peter what they should do...Peter said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...and that day there were added some 3000 Jews to the congregation.

So in this setting certain Jews were converted, But Paul later said this concerning the Jews:

 Here Paul says these Jews had killed the Lord and they had not repented and they were not pleasing to God and that the wrath of God had came upon them to the uttermost. So the point is, some Jews that had crucified the Lord repented, and some Jews who killed the Lord did not repent, meaning of course that some died in Christ and some died in their sins. So it is not just 4 or 5 soldiers we are talking about when he said those that pierced him.

Well, Rev 1:7 does say 'whoever pierced Him.' It could be less than literal I suppose. 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I am not saying the wicked dead are raised before the righteous, and neither is the scripture....The scripture states all that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth..both good and bad are gathered in one net, at one time, then separated...in other words, when the righteous are resurrected is the same time the wicked are...for example,  in a cemetery say there is one man that is righteous and the other is wicked, both of these will hear the same voice and both of these will come forth...the picture you sometimes see of all the righteous raising up into the air at the rapture is only showing the righteous rising...if the whole picture was shown you would not only see the righteous come out of their graves, but also the wicked would come out of their's as well. 

It's yet to be established this is at the same time. Nothing says the voice is uttered once and only once. 

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, in that specific scripture it does not say 'Come, reign over the nations with me for 1000 years.' Just like the scripture in 1 Thess. 4 does not say 'And it shall come to pass on the last day that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first...' Because it does not say it in that specific verse does not mean the resurrection will not take place on the last day as Jesus said. All we are doing is connecting two places...one that says all that believe will be resurrected on the last day, and they we read 'and the dead in Christ will rise first,' we make the connection that the time frame for this event is on the last day and not before the tribulation as pre trib has taught.

Sure. But we have qualifying evidence. In the case in point the judgement is not fixed on the continuum. I don't have any evidence this is when Jesus arrives, or at the end of the 1000 years, sometime in between or ongoing. To say when exactly is speculation.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Likewise, it does not say 'Come reign with me for 1000 years,' but it does say 'He that overcomes will I give power over the nations...' and likewise it says 'and we shall reign on the earth...' and likewise it says 'he has made us to be kings and priests...' When does this happen? It happens when he says 'Come you blessed of my Father...inherit the kingdom...' It is from this point onward the saints rule with Christ for the 1000 years.

Yes, when. We lack evidence for when. That it will happen is assured, when it happens is at our Father's pleasure.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

No wicked dead where? 

Where the 2nd death has no power. Rev 20:6. If the 2nd death has no power over any taking part in the 1st resurrection there are no wicked dead and the GWT is not in session at this point.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Yes, fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them...but they died within the time frame of the 1000 years...the Greek word 'teleo' is translated in the KJV as:

1) Fulfilled

2) Finished

3) Expired

Strongs definition for teleo:

The point would be that at the same time the Great White Throne judgement takes place is the same time that is called 'when the thousand years are finished...' meaning this is the break point between the end of the 1000 years and the new heavens and the new earth.

Those of Gog and Magog are said to be destroyed at this same end point in time worded as -"When the thousand years are expired, Satan shall go out to deceive...' 

So yes, you are right, it does not come out and say 'And Gog and Magog will be judged at the Great White Throne...' so we have to look at when the resurrection takes place...it says:

But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL the thousand years was FINISHED...so it seems the entire thousand years has to be fulfilled and THEN the resurrection, or the Great White Throne would happen...which in essence would make it AFTER the entire 1000 years had been fulfilled.

It seems to say the same thing about when Satan is released...it says:

So if Satan is released AFTER the 1000 years and the Great White Throne takes place AFTER the 1000 years then Gog and Magog who was destroyed by fire would be included in the group identified as 'the dead.':

'And death and hell gave up the dead which were in them...'

I agree.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Paul said we would all be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...it only takes a twinkle of an eye...what do you think can not be accomplished in the 1335 days?

"And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens,b and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever."

I'm saying the above in bold is not one of the wonders within 1335 days as it's an eternal wonder. So I'm questioning which wonders are the focus. The text is vague here. It could be those who are resurrected are not raised then, or some are raised then[Rev 20] and other later.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

I don't understand at all what you are saying..What do you mean 'it really doesn't say Second Coming,' when the scripture you are quoting says 'When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him...' This is the Second Coming.

The 2nd coming preceded this: "He will sit on His glorious throne." When He sit on the throne and judges it's for at least 1000 years. I can't say this judgement begins at the 2nd coming as the text relates 'when He is on the throne' which is after the 2nd coming. The text says this will happen, it does not say exactly when, just after the Coming when He sits on the throne.

5 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, of course. He comes at the Second Coming and then reigns on the earth for 1000 years.

Yes, I am not saying the wicked dead are in the first resurrection...there will be both groups, the righteous and the wicked at the Great White Throne like you say.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

23 hours ago, transmogrified said:

But the verse says all that are in Christ shall be made alive...the wicked are not in Christ..

That's not what it says.  It says "so also in Christ all will be made alive."  There's a difference between that and what you say the verse says.  Christ has the resurrection authority to raise the wicked as well as the righteous.  He has authority over death.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Hmm...seems that if all are resurrected, righteous and wicked, at the same time they are very much part of the protos resurrection. 

The thing we are looking at is Jesus was the first that rose from the dead...this is the first resurrection chronologically...there was never anyone who had been resurrected unto immortality before him..all the others died and were resurrected and then died again.. So the first in time aspect of the 'protos' resurrection was fulfilled in Christ...the quality aspect of the 'protos' resurrection is fulfilled in us when we are resurrected.. i.e. we are in the 'best' or the 'better' resurrection...

So chronologically Jesus was first in time...

Qualitatively we are in the best resurrection...

That being the case we do not have to be chronologically resurrected before the wicked dead in order to be in the first resurrection...we are already in Christ, so we are not in the race to be first before anyone else...Jesus already won that race....

The concept that the righteous dead must be first resurrected before the wicked is not the comparison that needs to be made...just like when it says the dead in Christ will rise first, we have to ask the question, first before what? It is not first before the wicked dead, it is first in that they ascend up  before those who are alive and remain ascend up.  

That is how Daniel is being misunderstood...it plainly shows both are resurrected by the end of the reign of the beast...The angel was not wrong...it did not later get revised to fit a different understanding...it is carried throughout the rest of scripture...the scripture saying 'the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished' does not disanull Dan. 12:2-3...it does not revise what the angel said to Daniel and relocate the resurrection of the dead to 1000 years after the reign of the beast...no. It is the misunderstanding of who the rest of the dead are that leads people to these conclusions...and when they read other texts where both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time they don't question how it could be true...they isolate the one about not living until the 1000 years are finished and think it trumps every other scripture..it does not trump other scriptures...they are all there and serve their own distinct purpose and are necessary to leave in an un- adulterated state to see what is being said. 

Something similar to how the JW's have alleged Jesus is not God...what did they do? They troll through all the scriptures that show he is and then manipulate them in translation or additions to make it say what it never said...This is kind of the same job going on with the resurrection of the wicked dead...scripture shows both being resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time and seemingly the job has become how to make these scriptures mean something different...hence there are literal additions to the text that were made...

Here is an example of how far reaching this can get. The Tregelles translation of Daniel 12:2-3 is as follows:

"And many from among the sleepers in the dust of the earth shall awake. These (that awake) shall be unto everlasting life. But those (the rest of the sleepers who awake later) shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt..."

How do you get this kind of translation without adding a completely different narrative into the text...? You don't. This is called adding to Gods word. There is nothing in the Hebrew text that states there would be sleepers who would not arise at that time and be raised later. This is like the JW's adding to the text that 'and the Word was 'a' God.' Why did they have to do this? Because it did not fit their own narrative...and why did not their narrative fit? Because it was a narrative the Word of God was not saying. 

So when we are saying 'first resurrection' we are not saying first before the wicked...we are saying we are in Jesus who was the first that was resurrected and we could be resurrected at any time, before or after the wicked and still be in the first resurrection...the issue is that the scripture portrays both being resurrected at the same time.

 

[transmogrified]

42 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

That's not what it says.  It says "so also in Christ all will be made alive."  There's a difference between that and what you say the verse says.  Christ has the resurrection authority to raise the wicked as well as the righteous.  He has authority over death.

Yes, I am not saying the wicked dead will not rise...I am saying this verse is not speaking about the wicked dead being made alive...of course Christ has the authority to raise the wicked dead...as it states...all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...so we know both the wicked and the dead  come forth at the voice of Jesus...

Blessings to you- Gary

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The thing we are looking at is Jesus was the first that rose from the dead...this is the first resurrection chronologically...there was never anyone who had been resurrected unto immortality before him..all the others died and were resurrected and then died again.. So the first in time aspect of the 'protos' resurrection was fulfilled in Christ...the quality aspect of the 'protos' resurrection is fulfilled in us when we are resurrected.. i.e. we are in the 'best' or the 'better' resurrection...

So chronologically Jesus was first in time...

Qualitatively we are in the best resurrection...

That being the case we do not have to be chronologically resurrected before the wicked dead in order to be in the first resurrection...we are already in Christ, so we are not in the race to be first before anyone else...Jesus already won that race....

The concept that the righteous dead must be first resurrected before the wicked is not the comparison that needs to be made...just like when it says the dead in Christ will rise first, we have to ask the question, first before what? It is not first before the wicked dead, it is first in that they ascend up  before those who are alive and remain ascend up.  

As I understand it there is no 1st resurrection as in order. Christ the first fruits then those who are His at His coming scripture says. I light of this then all that are Christ's are part of the same harvest of which Christ is the first fruits. So it's the main harvest wherein the wheat is gathered into the barn. 

As an aside I don't know that anyone resurrected before Christ died again. It seems that would be the case but I just don't know it.

 

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

That is how Daniel is being misunderstood...it plainly shows both are resurrected by the end of the reign of the beast...The angel was not wrong...it did not later get revised to fit a different understanding...it is carried throughout the rest of scripture...the scripture saying 'the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished' does not disanull Dan. 12:2-3...it does not revise what the angel said to Daniel and relocate the resurrection of the dead to 1000 years after the reign of the beast...no. It is the misunderstanding of who the rest of the dead are that leads people to these conclusions...and when they read other texts where both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time they don't question how it could be true...they isolate the one about not living until the 1000 years are finished and think it trumps every other scripture..it does not trump other scriptures...they are all there and serve their own distinct purpose and are necessary to leave in an un- adulterated state to see what is being said. 

If the righteous dead were raised separate into everlasting glory. Then at another time the wicked dead were raised and judged into everlasting shame and contempt the prophecy is still correct. I really don't see the 'When' clearly stated in Daniel. The fact of it is there, the timing is vague. 

No scripture, especially prophecy, is lesser or greater than any other. Our task is to find understanding to reconcile how both can be true at the same time.  So for me it's not an issue to see a resurrection of the righteous, over which the 2nd death has no power, and another resurrection 1000 years later where the 2nd death has power.

Daniel 12 is equivocal as to timing. Rev 20 is not. In Rev 20 some awake to eternal glory and some awake to eternal shame. This is not a contradiction to Dan 12 it a clarification since Dan 12 doesn't show timing. 

Because there are two resurrections some time apart doesn't negate the general statement by Gabriel concerning the dispensation of Dan 12:2-3. I would go so far as to say Gabriel says, "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake," not,

"Then many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake,"

Gabriel is saying, "Also, in addition" and not "Then, or after this" so it's not linear in the narrative.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Something similar to how the JW's have alleged Jesus is not God...what did they do? They troll through all the scriptures that show he is and then manipulate them in translation or additions to make it say what it never said...This is kind of the same job going on with the resurrection of the wicked dead...scripture shows both being resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time and seemingly the job has become how to make these scriptures mean something different...hence there are literal additions to the text that were made...

I don't see it as 'at the same time'. It's more 'in this age' or 'during the reign' or 'in the sphere or realm'.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Here is an example of how far reaching this can get. The Tregelles translation of Daniel 12:2-3 is as follows:

"And many from among the sleepers in the dust of the earth shall awake. These (that awake) shall be unto everlasting life. But those (the rest of the sleepers who awake later) shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt..."

In light of Rev 20 I don't see this as incompatible.

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

How do you get this kind of translation without adding a completely different narrative into the text...? You don't. This is called adding to Gods word. There is nothing in the Hebrew text that states there would be sleepers who would not arise at that time and be raised later. This is like the JW's adding to the text that 'and the Word was 'a' God.' Why did they have to do this? Because it did not fit their own narrative...and why did not their narrative fit? Because it was a narrative the Word of God was not saying. 

So when we are saying 'first resurrection' we are not saying first before the wicked...we are saying we are in Jesus who was the first that was resurrected and we could be resurrected at any time, before or after the wicked and still be in the first resurrection...the issue is that the scripture portrays both being resurrected at the same time.

 

I mean, except for the 2nd death has no power over those of the 1st resurrection who are said to be priests and reign with Christ for 1000 years. 

I just can't merge the two. Rev 20 is clear about there being two resurrections. One of life and glory where the 2nd death has no power, and another where the 2nd death is faced. And even then the 2nd death only has power over those whose names were not found in the book of Life. 

In 1 Thess 4, 1 Thess 5 2 Thess 2 and 1 Cor 15 and Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, THE passages about the gathering, we see no wicked dead raised at the same time as the elect saints. Seems quite the omission. And in Rev 7 we see nothing of the wicked dead. It's true, of course, just because it's not mentioned it's proof of non existence but to insert a concept is gap filling. 

I just can't go there.