Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

So it's the main harvest wherein the wheat is gathered into the barn. 

When does the scripture say the wheat is gathered into the barn?

[WilliamL]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:25 AM, Diaste said:

As I understand it there is no 1st resurrection as in order.

Exactly. The first/protos resurrection is according to preeminence [another meaning of protos], not order. Christ's resurrection and our own coming one, and again the one of Rev. 20's beheaded faithful saints -- these are all of the protos resurrection.

[Diaste]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:21 PM, transmogrified said:

When does the scripture say the wheat is gathered into the barn?

Matt 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 5/3/2022 at 10:21 PM, transmogrified said:

When does the scripture say the wheat is gathered into the barn?

Matt 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ 

And so the tares are children of the devil...the wicked...and they get harvested at the end of this age...the scripture defines when the harvest is...it doesn't just say they grow together until the harvest it states exactly when the harvest is...

It is says so shall it be in the end of THIS AGE...not the end of the NEXT AGE which would be the end of the 1000 years:

Quote

 

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Mat 13:41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:42

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:43

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

 

It specifically states the tares are harvested and cast into the fire at the same time the righteous shine forth...

So shall it be in the end of THIS world

1)  He shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity   (the wicked are those who do iniquity) 

2) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (it is the wicked who are cast into the fire)

3) THEN (at the same time the wicked are cast into the fire) shall the righteous shine forth

The wicked dead cannot be construed to be cast into the fire at the end of the 1000 years, nor can the righteous shine forth at any other time than at this same time of the harvest..i.e. the end of THIS AGE, as they are both harvested at the same time.

 

Blessings to you

 

 

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[Diaste]

19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

And so the tares are children of the devil...the wicked...and they get harvested at the end of this age...the scripture defines when the harvest is...it doesn't just say they grow together until the harvest it states exactly when the harvest is...

It is says so shall it be in the end of THIS AGE...not the end of the NEXT AGE which would be the end of the 1000 years:

 

It specifically states the tares are harvested and cast into the fire at the same time the righteous shine forth...

So shall it be in the end of THIS world

1)  He shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity   (the wicked are those who do iniquity) 

2) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (it is the wicked who are cast into the fire)

3) THEN (at the same time the wicked are cast into the fire) shall the righteous shine forth

The wicked dead cannot be construed to be cast into the fire at the end of the 1000 years, nor can the righteous shine forth at any other time than at this same time of the harvest..i.e. the end of THIS AGE, as they are both harvested at the same time.

 

Blessings to you

 

 

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I still cannot just ignore the fact the 2nd death has no power of those in the 1st, primary, resurrection. That changes the outlook on what's what in the main resurrection and who is and isn't involved. 

Yes, the end of the age. How are we to define this? Is it one day? A week? Maybe it's much longer. The Day of the Lord is 1000 years long. Maybe the end of the age is referring to when the age is over abstractly and not a specific moment. 

"Over these the 2nd death has no power" must be part of the definition and search for the truth.

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I still cannot just ignore the fact the 2nd death has no power of those in the 1st, primary, resurrection.

It is not being ignored...the wheat are in the first resurrection and the tares are not even though they are both resurrected at the end of this age. I am not alleging those in the first resurrection are subject to the second death. You do not have to believe the righteous are subject to the second death in order to believe that the wheat and tares are both harvested at the end of this age. It is not a valid response to say it cannot be ignored that the second death has power over the righteous...I am not saying that and neither is scripture. 

The wheat died in Christ so even though they are resurrected at the same time as the wicked does not make them now subject to the second death...only the wicked are subject to the second death. The two categories are:

1) You die in Christ and are in the resurrection unto life...

2) You die in sin and are in the resurrection unto damnation...

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

That changes the outlook on what's what in the main resurrection and who is and isn't involved. 

It doesn't change the outlook at all..I was never alleging they were subject to the second death and neither was scripture.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, the end of the age. How are we to define this?

We define it by the word 'THEN' in Matthew 13

As it says:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD...

Note: When is the end of this world, or age? The second coming is the dividing line between THIS AGE and the AGE TO COME...so when it says so shall it be at the end of this age, it is not talking about the end of the next age...when the sheep and goats are before the Lord and judged when he comes to the earth, they then are given the kingdom and reign with Christ from that day forward for 1000 years. It is at THIS SAME TIME that the goats are cast into everlasting fire...both examples in the wheat and tares use the same word THEN to describe the time frame as follows:

"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth..." 

"THEN  shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

The word 'then' is only used in two contexts...either it happens at the same time, or immediately following.

He puts it forth that the wicked are cast into the fire and THEN, or 'at that time, or immediately after, the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their father. The righteous do not inherit the kingdom of their father at the end of the 1000 years...No. That is the END of the 1000 years, so the 'THEN' in this context means 'at that same time.'

Matthew 13:

The tares are gathered and cast into the fire:

1) THEN shall the righteous shine forth

Matthew 25:

Then shall he say unto them on his right hand...Come ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..

2) THEN shall he say to them on his left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels..

In both cases the word THEN is being used to denote the righteous and the wicked are both resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time.

It cannot be construed to mean the righteous shine forth and the wicked are cast into the fire 1000 years later.

It cannot be construed to mean he rewards the sheep and then 1000 years later casts the goats into everlasting fire.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is it one day?

Yes, the resurrection, judgment and rewards for both the righteous and the wicked happen on one day. It is called the 'Day of the Lord.' In some contexts it means 1000 years and in other contexts it is restricted to one day. The judgement of the sheep and goats does not happen throughout the entire 1000 years. The wicked are cast into the fire and THEN the righteous reign with Christ for 1000 years. The judgment of the sheep and goats does not continue throughout the 1000 years. No. The goats are cast into the fire and THEN the righteous enter into the kingdom and reign from that time forward for 1000 years. All the sheep collectively enter into the kingdom at the same time..as it says 'he says to THEM on his right hand...' in other words, ALL the sheep collectively then enter the kingdom, it is not spread out over the entire 1000 years.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Maybe it's much longer.

It cannot be.  How long do the righteous reign with Christ? For 1000 years. They all cannot be reigning with Christ if the sheep are being judged throughout the entire 1000 years. This would invalidate what Jesus said when he says to them on his right hand ...enter into the kingdom...it would have to say, 'Then shall he say to SOME of them on his right hand...enter in the  kingdom..and later say to some of the others...enter into the kingdom...and then later say to some of the others...No. This is adding to what is written...he speaks to all the sheep just as he speaks to all the wicked. All the wicked are collectively cast into the fire, and all the sheep are collectively rewarded. 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Day of the Lord is 1000 years long.

In some contexts it is one day and in other contexts it is 1000 years. 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

Maybe the end of the age is referring to when the age is over abstractly and not a specific moment. 

It does not say the 'end of THE age.' It says the end of THIS age...Jesus made a distinction between this age and the next...he said if a man sins against the holy ghost it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in the age to come...Was he meaning the same thing? Was he meaning something abstract and not referring to a specific time? Of course not. The age we are in now will END at the Second Coming and from that day forward we will be in the age that is to come...If both were the same thing, it would not be called the age which is to come...meaning it is not here yet. In the same manner it cannot be said the wheat and tares will be judged at the end of this age, and also have it mean at the end of the next, so the premise is totally invalidated. 

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

"Over these the 2nd death has no power" must be part of the definition and search for the truth.

There is no searching for the answer or the definition on this question. The question and definition of who is in the first resurrection is  already answered....the righteous are in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death...

Blessings to you

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is not being ignored...the wheat are in the first resurrection and the tares are not even though they are both resurrected at the end of this age. I am not alleging those in the first resurrection are subject to the second death. You do not have to believe the righteous are subject to the second death in order to believe that the wheat and tares are both harvested at the end of this age. It is not a valid response to say it cannot be ignored that the second death has power over the righteous...I am not saying that and neither is scripture. 

So you're not saying the righteous and wicked are resurrected at the same time? 

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The wheat died in Christ so even though they are resurrected at the same time as the wicked does not make them now subject to the second death...only the wicked are subject to the second death. The two categories are:

So you are. "The wheat died in Christ so even though they are resurrected at the same time as the wicked..."

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

1) You die in Christ and are in the resurrection unto life...

2) You die in sin and are in the resurrection unto damnation...

It doesn't change the outlook at all..I was never alleging they were subject to the second death and neither was scripture.

Are you saying it doesn't follow that even though the righteous and wicked are resurrected at the same time, in the same resurrection, that the 2nd death would have power over those of the primary resurrection?

If the 2nd death has no power over the those in the 1st resurrection, and the 2nd death has power of the resurrected wicked, and they are part of the 1st resurrection, then the 2nd death would have power over those in the 1st resurrection. Yes?

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

We define it by the word 'THEN' in Matthew 13

As it says:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD...

Sure. But Matt 13:40-43 looks like the weeding is going on before any resurrection.

"40As the weeds are collected and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.f"

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Note: When is the end of this world, or age? The second coming is the dividing line between THIS AGE and the AGE TO COME...so when it says so shall it be at the end of this age, it is not talking about the end of the next age...when the sheep and goats are before the Lord and judged when he comes to the earth, they then are given the kingdom and reign with Christ from that day forward for 1000 years. It is at THIS SAME TIME that the goats are cast into everlasting fire...both examples in the wheat and tares use the same word THEN to describe the time frame as follows:

"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth..." 

"THEN  shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

The word 'then' is only used in two contexts...either it happens at the same time, or immediately following.

I would have to say the righteous shining as the sun is a result of their righteousness in Christ and the harvest, not the final disposition of the tares. We also see the angels: "will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness" This doesn't appear to me to be a judgement at the GWT or the bema seat[not sure I buy this] but some action independent of judgement focused on the members of the kingdom as it says, "they will weed out of His kingdom " and it's the angels doing this. 

I suppose we could say the kingdom of Christ is every atom in creation and therefore every person wicked or righteous is in the kingdom of Christ. But from Matt 25 the goats do not enter into the kingdom, only the sheep.

Matt 7 is even more explicit.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’

This weeding out then takes place on earth and it's focused on those who call themselves by His name who practice lawlessness and in whom there is the cause of sin. I think this is in keeping with the time of testing that is to come on the earth and the several plagues used by the Most High to plead with the flesh and turn the heart toward God. 

I could be wrong about that but even so I cannot liken the parable of the weeds and the full explanation of the parable to the primary resurrection.

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

He puts it forth that the wicked are cast into the fire and THEN, or 'at that time, or immediately after, the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their father. The righteous do not inherit the kingdom of their father at the end of the 1000 years...No. That is the END of the 1000 years, so the 'THEN' in this context means 'at that same time.'

Possibly but I think not. If 'then' is 'after' I'm going with 'after the harvest' and not 'after the tares are weeded out'. 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Matthew 13:

The tares are gathered and cast into the fire:

1) THEN shall the righteous shine forth

Matthew 25:

Then shall he say unto them on his right hand...Come ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..

2) THEN shall he say to them on his left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels..

In both cases the word THEN is being used to denote the righteous and the wicked are both resurrected, judged and rewarded at the same time.

It cannot be construed to mean the righteous shine forth and the wicked are cast into the fire 1000 years later.

It cannot be construed to mean he rewards the sheep and then 1000 years later casts the goats into everlasting fire.

It would have to be established "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him," is immediately upon the return of Jesus. "He will sit on His glorious throne" is for 1000 years and beyond as 'Your kingdom is established forever' is also true. 

"All the nations will be gathered before Him", to be judged isn't even possible immediately as wrath falls on the nations at His return, and the nations survive for 1000 years after His return and Gog is destroyed after the 1000 years. Going back to Matt 13 this would have to mean sin and lawlessness were not weeded out as said. 

This is another reason why I'm convinced the weeding is from among those that are called by His name and it's not a final judgement as in Matt 25 and Rev 20.

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, the resurrection, judgment and rewards for both the righteous and the wicked happen on one day. It is called the 'Day of the Lord.' In some contexts it means 1000 years and in other contexts it is restricted to one day. The judgement of the sheep and goats does not happen throughout the entire 1000 years. The wicked are cast into the fire and THEN the righteous reign with Christ for 1000 years. The judgment of the sheep and goats does not continue throughout the 1000 years. No. The goats are cast into the fire and THEN the righteous enter into the kingdom and reign from that time forward for 1000 years. All the sheep collectively enter into the kingdom at the same time..as it says 'he says to THEM on his right hand...' in other words, ALL the sheep collectively then enter the kingdom, it is not spread out over the entire 1000 years.

You may be right. However there is a logistical problem with this. If Matt 25 is such a judgement are the sheep and goats not going through a hearing? In Rev 20 there is a hearing. Books are opened, the dead are judged according to what's in the books. This will take a great deal of time. 

Is Matt 25 just an announcement or individuals appearing before the throne? The text says Jesus sits on His glorious throne. I don't think I can separate Matt 25 from Rev 20 and the depicted judgment. That would mean two judgements when I see but one. 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It cannot be.  How long do the righteous reign with Christ? For 1000 years. They all cannot be reigning with Christ if the sheep are being judged throughout the entire 1000 years. This would invalidate what Jesus said when he says to them on his right hand ...enter into the kingdom...it would have to say, 'Then shall he say to SOME of them on his right hand...enter in the  kingdom..and later say to some of the others...enter into the kingdom...and then later say to some of the others...No. This is adding to what is written...he speaks to all the sheep just as he speaks to all the wicked. All the wicked are collectively cast into the fire, and all the sheep are collectively rewarded. 

Not if Matt 25 and Rev 20 are the same and neither has anything to do with the primary resurrection in which there are no wicked dead and only the righteous are resurrected. 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

In some contexts it is one day and in other contexts it is 1000 years. 

It does not say the 'end of THE age.' It says the end of THIS age...Jesus made a distinction between this age and the next...he said if a man sins against the holy ghost it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in the age to come...Was he meaning the same thing? Was he meaning something abstract and not referring to a specific time? Of course not. The age we are in now will END at the Second Coming and from that day forward we will be in the age that is to come...If both were the same thing, it would not be called the age which is to come...meaning it is not here yet. In the same manner it cannot be said the wheat and tares will be judged at the end of this age, and also have it mean at the end of the next, so the premise is totally invalidated. 

Seems we differ here on what the meaning of end of the age is in the context of these judgements and resurrections. 

I see it in critical points, like we are discussing, as 'when this age is over' where you see it as 'the moment the age ends'. 

 

15 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is no searching for the answer or the definition on this question. The question and definition of who is in the first resurrection is  already answered....the righteous are in the first resurrection and are not subject to the second death...

Blessings to you

But you are also saying the wicked dead are in the 1st resurrection and in that case the 2nd death would have power over them, when it's not possible the 2nd death has power over anyone in the primary resurrection.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

So you're not saying the righteous and wicked are resurrected at the same time? 

Please provide clarity to your position. Are you saying in order to be in the first resurrection you must be resurrected before the wicked?

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Please provide clarity to your position. Are you saying in order to be in the first resurrection you must be resurrected before the wicked?

 

I'm not saying that. Scripture is. 

I have yet to hear any explanation countering the Rev 20 truth 

"The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

If the wicked are are raised along with the specific group which: 

"had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands"

Then the second death would have power over those sharing in the primary resurrection, which cannot be. 

Then, this resurrection in Rev 20 is very specific as to whom takes part:

The beheaded for their testimony of Jesus

Those who had not worshiped the beast

Those who had not taken the mark

It's not all Christians from the Ascension, or from the time of the Exodus, or from Adam; it's just those who faced the beast and refused his authority over them.

Then the next resurrection is after 1000 years when the 2nd death has power, where everyone is resurrected, both righteous and wicked, and they are judged according to what is written in the books.

Interestingly we know only some are judged wicked as the scripture says, "And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life," 

IF. Big, profound, important, critical IF. Not 'When'. A lot of people are going to be found righteous at this time.

So only those who overcome the beast are in the protos resurrection, all the rest appear before the throne after 1000 years.

Paul states it's the dead in Christ who rise at the 2nd coming. This would then be all the dead who are born again of the Spirit from the time of the Ascension. This would account for the great, innumerable company about the throne in Rev 7.

But the scripture states this vast throng came out from within great tribulation. 

Is Paul wrong? No. There's a gap. Paul says, the dead in Christ will rise first, then the living who remain will be taken up. Paul doesn't state all the dead in Christ, just the dead in Christ. In light of Rev 7 and 20 that's a specific group as earlier stated.

Paul is also not saying what dead in Christ, how many, when or how they died in Christ. Paul would have needed to add detail to answer these questions. He did not, so we cannot assume the details to answer the questions but, those critical details are filled in later, in Rev 7 and 20, and the questions are answered. 

However, I don't know how accurate it is to say only those who "had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands" are the only ones resurrected in the protos resurrection. 

Scripture makes mention of "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. " right before the description of those who came to life and reigned with Him for 1000 years. 

It's probably the case this specific group in Rev 20:4 who overcame the beast are the designated rulers and priests of Jesus for 1000 years. Many others in the GT who are in Christ may not have faced the test. I can think of people who hide, are in remote areas, on islands, deep jungles, etc. Also I think it's possible to take the mark but repent of it and be saved. [that's another topic :)]

In that case you would be qualified to come out of GT and appear before the throne as righteous but not be qualified to reign as a priest with Jesus for 1000 years.

In the end it's those who come out of GT that are in the protos resurrection, a specific group that reigns as priests with Christ from that same group that came out from within GT, and then the general resurrection of all the dead from everywhere, after the 1000 years. [after the Gog action of Rev 20:7-10]

 

 

 

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have yet to hear any explanation countering the Rev 20 truth 

Hello Diaste,

The truth in the passage you cite is that those you refer to are notable among the rest in the first general resurrection, all believers.

In Matt 25 Jesus spells it out. The sheep and goats are there together at the same time. One group are the unbelievers, the others are His followers. There are two destinations, fire, and joy of the Lord in His Kingdom. There cannot be people who believe the only Gospel that is true (as you do) and NOT be recipients of what it promises.

Paul describes this in 1Cor 15. The two groups he refers to are the living and dead.

Jesus said in John 5:28,29- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Found also in Dan 12:2- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest of the dead are those who die in the millennium and those who march across the earth against Jerusalem after that. 

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is what Paul talked about in 1Cor 15. I don't expect Jesus to then ban one group from joining these.

Heb 11:39,40- And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Martyrs AND non martyrs are in this chapter, yet it (the resurrection) is declared openly that it will be without them or us.