Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Diaste,

The truth in the passage you cite is that those you refer to are notable among the rest in the first general resurrection, all believers.

In Matt 25 Jesus spells it out. The sheep and goats are there together at the same time. One group are the unbelievers, the others are His followers. There are two destinations, fire, and joy of the Lord in His Kingdom. There cannot be people who believe the only Gospel that is true (as you do) and NOT be recipients of what it promises.

Shalom, Uriah.

Matthew 25, still a part of the Olivet Discourse, is talking about the BEGINNING of the Millennium or rather at the BEGINNING of His reign! Notice the wording:

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (in His brightness), and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (of His brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:' ..."

Later, 

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

" 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ...' " 

At the end, He said,

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)

46 "And these (NATIONS) shall go away (EVENTUALLY) into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

It's a WAR TRIBUNAL that the Son holds for His Father in which those who have mistreated His people, primarily the children of Israel, are given their rewards AT THE BEGINNING of His reign! The same is true for those who aided His people. They are given their good rewards, too! Some nations are destined to become a part of His Kingdom, but other nations are left out until they are SUBDUED and/or KILLED by the King of kings in battle!

It's important to notice that NO ONE is actually SENT to the Lake of Fire at that time! NO ONE is actually THROWN into the Fire! Their nation is merely consigned to that sentence. If one stays with his or her nation, then at the end of the Millennium, the Great White Throne Judgment, they will THEN be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

We're talking about a THOUSAND YEARS! Anyone who has NOT been raised from the dead as a glorified body or has NOT been changed into a glorified body as a believer will not live the entire time! They will die in some way DURING the Thousand Years, before the end of the Millennium!

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Paul describes this in 1Cor 15. The two groups he refers to are the living and dead.

Yes, he does! He says a LOT in the context of the resurrection!

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 
24 (2) THEN COMETH THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (The Messiah His Son's) feet. But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (revealed; obvious) that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (the Messiah). 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah), THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Verse 25 IS the Millennium, the initial 1,000-year reign of the Messiah!

THAT is what is going on during the Millennium! It's not the same environment as the New Earth, where all things are made new! The Millennium is NOT "a time of peace and joy" (except for those within His Kingdom); it's a time of DESTRUCTION and SUBDUING! It's a time of RIGHTEOUS RESTITUTION! It's a time of VENGEANCE and MAKING THINGS RIGHT AROUND THE WORLD! And, this will ALL TAKE TIME to complete!

Look at the words of Psalm 2!

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

The Psalmist sees YHWH GOD reigning with His Anointed - His Messiah - this way:

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH GOD), and against his Anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens (YHWH God the FATHER) SHALL LAUGH (AUDIBLY)!: the Lord (the Master, the Messiah) shall have them in derision (shall POKE FUN AT THEM; MOCK THEM! "Oh, waaah! Boo hoo!")

5 Then shall he (YHWH GOD) speak unto them IN HIS WRATH, and vex them IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE.

6 "Yet have I set MY KING upon MY holy hill of Zion!

7 "I will declare (quote) the decree:

" 'The LORD (YHWH God) hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt BREAK THEM with a rod of iron; thou shalt DASH THEM IN PIECES like a potter's vessel!" '

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth!

11 "Serve the LORD (YHWH God) WITH FEAR, and rejoice WITH TREMBLING!

12 "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way (road), WHEN HIS WRATH IS KINDLED BUT A LITTLE! Blessed are all they that put their trust IN HIM!"

Just imagine that happening at a United Nations meeting! THAT'S how our God will handle things! THAT'S how He will endorse His Son's RIGHT TO RULE and His Kingdom!

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Jesus said in John 5:28,29- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

YES! TWO DIFFERENT, GENERAL RESURRECTIONS! And, they occur at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES, one at the BEGINNING of the "Millennium" and one at the END of the "Millennium!"

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Found also in Dan 12:2- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, TWO DIFFERENT, GENERAL  RESURRECTIONS at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES!

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

The rest of the dead are those who die in the millennium and those who march across the earth against Jerusalem after that. 

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the general Resurrection AT HIS COMING, at the BEGINNING of the Millennium!

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

This is what Paul talked about in 1Cor 15. I don't expect Jesus to then ban one group from joining these.

Heb 11:39,40- And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Martyrs AND non martyrs are in this chapter, yet it (the resurrection) is declared openly that it will be without them or us.

Frankly, He does NOT "ban one group from joining those at His Coming," except to say that this Resurrection is for the Dead IN CHRIST! IN THE MESSIAH! One should also understand what Yeshua` said to Marta ("Martha"):

John 11:21-27 (KJV)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her,

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE!: he that believeth IN ME, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth IN ME shall never die. Believest thou this?"

27 She saith unto him,

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of God, which should come into the world."

There is MUCH that people do not understand about the Coming King or His Kingdom! What does it take to "REIGN?" What is it that a King does? A King makes DECISIONS that affect the whole Kingdom! He makes JUDGMENTS on the national scale! He is indeed a JUDGE! He is the LAST WORD in a matter! He will have mercy on those He feels are deserving of mercy, but He is a HARSH DEFENDER of the innocent! Would one try to intimidate a KING?! Would even another king attempt to intimidate the KING OF KINGS?! Not if they had ANY sense in them!

As a Judge, He is the SUPREME COURT of His Kingdom. However, He will also delegate some of the responsibility of judging to lesser kings and judges, only taking those matters they feel are necessary to escalate to His wisdom.

In matters of life or death, HE is the RESURRECTION and the LIFE! His people also will be entrusted by His Father with the ability to GIVE LIFE as well as mete out death! Therefore, INDIVIDUAL RESURRECTIONS will be going on THROUGHOUT the Millennium!

Did Jesus bring people to life during His three-and-a-half-year "Ministry?" Of course! Will Yeshua` bring people to life during His reign? OF COURSE! So will His Saints - His Holy Ones! Were not His disciples given that power while He was offering the Kingdom to the Jews during His First Advent? YES!

Matthew 10:5-8 (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying,

"Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give!"

Why would it be any different when He COMES AGAIN?!

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Diaste,

The truth in the passage you cite is that those you refer to are notable among the rest in the first general resurrection, all believers.

Okay. I don't know that I see this. So far as I know there are two places, three, where this group is described:

"So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation" Rev 7

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Rev 20

and the 3rd:

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"

So an idea of the Rev 20 reference could be all in Christ from the Ascension since before the beast rises no one could technically be beheaded by the beast for their testimony, take the mark, or worship the beast and his image. In that sense this could include 2 millennia of those in Christ. Is a technicality enough? Idk.

The Rev 7 reference is quite clear and wholly unambiguous; the ones pictured came out of GT. There are some who want to claim this GT extends backward in time to the Ascension as Jesus does relate to us,

"I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!”"

But the reference to the vast, innumerable throng assembled before the throne and the Lamb is in the context of GT or mega tribulation. That isn't the same as the tribulation in the world from John 16. And GT is always associated with the end of the age and the Coming of Jesus.

The Gathering of the Elect is also placed squarely at the time of the end, at the Coming of Jesus, after GT, as in Matt 24. 

In all that I do not see a description of any other who was not somehow associated with GT at the end prior to Jesus arrival. I could be just missing it but I'm not convinced of that just yet.

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

In Matt 25 Jesus spells it out. The sheep and goats are there together at the same time. One group are the unbelievers, the others are His followers. There are two destinations, fire, and joy of the Lord in His Kingdom. There cannot be people who believe the only Gospel that is true (as you do) and NOT be recipients of what it promises.

Yes. I understand the argument. I also agree 100%.

An alternative explanation here is that the Matt 25 Sheep and Goats judgement is the GWT after the millennium. Does it matter if the promises are immediate or delayed as long as they are delivered? We are assured the promises of God are true and secure and He will make good on them. Would it matter if it was one day later or 1000 years before the promise was made good?

In light of eternity in the joy of the Lord, in the inheritance prepared for us from the foundation of the world, what would 1000 years mean? In comparison to eternity it's null. A long wait or a short wait for a promise to be fulfilled doesn't negate the promise. Sure, we don't like the waiting but it's just time passing and not despairing the promise will go unrealized.

Then even if the only ones raised in the protos resurrection are those that came out from within GT, faced down the pressure of the beast and his image, and were the only ones who reigned as priests with Christ for 1000 years, the Matt 25 promise of inheritance of an eternal kingdom of joy in the Lord is assured and in no way diminished.

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Paul describes this in 1Cor 15. The two groups he refers to are the living and dead.

Yes. But Paul is also silent on which dead, how they died, and where they came from. We assume this to be a great general resurrection of all the dead in Christ from at least the Ascension, maybe back to Adam, but this is not said here. And as pointed out in other unequivocal statements by Jesus our assumptions may be inaccurate.

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Jesus said in John 5:28,29- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Found also in Dan 12:2- And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The rest of the dead are those who die in the millennium and those who march across the earth against Jerusalem after that. 

This goes back to the Rev 20 statement about the 2nd death having no power over those who share in the protos resurrection. Both John and Daniel above speak to life and damnation in the same resurrection, mirroring Matt 25 and the sheep and goats. Rev 20 does not have the same dichotomy of dispensation of the pictured group. 

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them"

If the second death has no power over this resurrection then it's not the same one as in John 5 and Daniel 12. No one is in danger of the 2nd death in the 1st resurrection, totally different than an entire group where some are and some are not in that danger.

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Matt 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is what Paul talked about in 1Cor 15. I don't expect Jesus to then ban one group from joining these.

True. The silence must be noted here as well. It's not stated from when these come or the circumstances, only that they are gathered. Matt 24 gathering follows GT directly and 1 Cor 15 only states the change in nature and when it occurs. The 'we' of 1 Cor 15:51-53 could be construed to mean 'all believers of all time' but I think not. Paul said 'to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord'. 

This is not yet worked out for me so I have to contemplate how that fits with everything else.

18 hours ago, Uriah said:

Heb 11:39,40- And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

They didn't receive the promise. I'm convinced that means 'while they were alive in the flesh'. It's without doubt they will receive the promise at some point though there may be a waiting period.

Hope that all made some sense. It isn't quite settled for me just yet though. I appreciate the response and the information.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Uriah]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:24 AM, Diaste said:

Then, this resurrection in Rev 20 is very specific as to whom takes part:

The beheaded for their testimony of Jesus

Those who had not worshiped the beast

Those who had not taken the mark

It's not all Christians

Heb 11:37- They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword:

Martyrs

Heb 11:4 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us

[transmogrified]

On 5/12/2022 at 1:31 PM, Retrobyter said:

On 5/12/2022 at 8:58 AM, Uriah said:

Jesus said in John 5:28,29- Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

YES! TWO DIFFERENT, GENERAL RESURRECTIONS! And, they occur at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES, one at the BEGINNING of the "Millennium" and one at the END of the "Millennium!"

Hello...Good to meet you...:)

     The problem is in understanding what the first resurrection is. The somewhat common belief is that in order to be in the first resurrection, the believers must be resurrected before the unbelievers, and this is translated into the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, and the unbelievers are resurrected at the end of the thousand years.

This appears legitimate at first glance until one goes into the other scriptures and it becomes apparent that if this is not the case.

In the wheat and the tares, both the wheat and the tares are harvested at the same time, which is explicitly stated to be the end of THIS AGE. If it was true that the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the NEXT AGE, he would have said 'Let the wheat be gathered into the barn at the end of this age, but let the tares be cast into the fire at the end of the next age,' but he didn't say that. He said:

Quote

 

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

 

 

The word 'Then' above shows WHEN the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their father. When do the righteous shine forth? At the Second Coming they are given their reward when he says 'But gather the wheat into my barn.' This does not happen at the end of the 1000 years, but it states the wicked are cast into the fire WHEN the righteous shine forth.

We have the same word 'then' being used in both the sheep and the goats and wheat and the tares:

Wheat and tares:

1) He shall cast them into a furnace of fire...

2) THEN shall the righteous shine forth

Sheep and Goats:

Quote

 

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

So both the sheep and the goats are before Jesus at the same time...all people are gathered before him. He says to the sheep 'come ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom...

Quote

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is adding to the text to say they were thrown into the fire at the end of the 1000 years...the righteous are rewarded and enter into the kingdom, and the wicked are rewarded and are cast into the fire. 

This is also done in Daniel 12:3 when it says many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake...Daniel then asks the angel, But when shall be the END of these wonders? The angel tells him all these things will be finished by the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast. When is the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast? At the Second Coming, not at the end of the 1000 years.

For example World War 2 ended on Sept. 2, 1945. If I was to say 'everything I had planned to do was finished by the end of the war,' it would be the same as saying, 'everything I had planned to do was finished by Sept. 2, 1945. So it is here.

When the angel said 'ALL these things would be finished by the end of the reign of the beast, he did not say 'All of these things will be finished by the end of the reign of the beast except the resurrection of the wicked, which will take place 1000 years after the end the reign of the beast. No. He did not say that...the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked is finished by the end of the reign of the beast.

The end of the reign of the beast is also like saying 'at the Second Coming,' for this is when the beast comes to his end. So the angel could have said 'all these things will be finished at the Second Coming,' and it would be saying the same thing.

If the understanding was true that the righteous had to be resurrected first chronologically before the wicked to be in the first resurrection, neither the wheat and the tares, nor the sheep and the goats would be written the way they are. Neither mention the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, it has to be added into the narrative.

It is also the same with the good and the bad fish analogy. It says the net was let down one time and was not gathered to shore until it was full of both good and bad fish. At the end of this age, the good were kept in vessels and the bad were cast away. According to the more common belief it should have read:

And the net was lowered one time to gather some of the good fish at the pre trib rapture...

Later the net was let down again to gather the rest of the good fish at the Second Coming...

And then 1000 years later it was lowered once again to get the bad fish...No. That is a completely different narrative. The net was lowered one time and gathered both good and bad, then at the end of this age they are both rewarded.

The problem is in thinking WE must be chronologically resurrected before the wicked, rather than realizing that Jesus was the first chronologically to have been resurrected and since we are in him, then we are in this first resurrection.

This is how it is stated: "Unless a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone, but if it die it brings forth much fruit.'

Jesus was the corn of wheat and he was the FIRST to have died and to receive immortality...not us. We do not have to be resurrected before the wicked in order to be have part in the first resurrection...we have part in the first resurrection because we are in him.

Another example of this is in 2 Thess. 1:8  Paul was saying God would take vengeance on those who were persecuting them at that time. But he also says WHEN he would take vengeance on them.

1 Thess.  1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power.'

So, yes, he says they 'shall be punished' meaning it would happen at a future time, but then he identifies WHEN that future time would be in verse 10

"WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS..." 

He did not say they would be punished 1000 years after Jesus comes to be glorified in his saints, but WHEN he comes they will be punished.

There are many more scriptures on this, but it gets lengthy...hopefully we can talk more ...Blessings to you- Gary

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Uriah said:

Heb 11:37- They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword:

Martyrs

Heb 11:4 For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us

I get that. What I can't do is ignore Rev 2o:4 and Rev 7:13-14.

[Retrobyter]

51 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello...Good to meet you...:)

     The problem is in understanding what the first resurrection is. The somewhat common belief is that in order to be in the first resurrection, the believers must be resurrected before the unbelievers, and this is translated into the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, and the unbelievers are resurrected at the end of the thousand years.

Shalom, transmogrified.

Thank you for a thorough look at why you believe what you believe, and it's good to meet you, too.

Actually, for me, the key is in the STAGES of the Kingdom of God: Let me explain.

There are several passages of Scripture that must be harmonized without changing any one of these passages in their wording or their intent.

Yeshua`s parables of Matthew 13, Luke 19, Matthew 25, and the predictions of Gavriel ("Gabriel") at His birth in Luke 1.
Paul's description of the resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15,
Peter's listing of the heavens and earth in 2 Peter 3, and of course,
John's description of the reigns of both the Messiah and His Father in Revelation 20 and 21.

This last description of the reigns of both the Messiah and His Father are also touched upon in the rest of the book of Revelation, as well; SO, the rest of Revelation is also to be considered.

The most descriptive explanation of the two Kingdoms is found in the wheat and the tares parable, and is a good place to start the process:

But, one should be careful not to think he or she knows what is going on completely, until ALL of these passages are considered together as ONE truth, for we know that ALL of these passages are EQUALLY true, being part of the Canon of Scripture.

51 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

This appears legitimate at first glance until one goes into the other scriptures and it becomes apparent that if this is not the case.

In the wheat and the tares, both the wheat and the tares are harvested at the same time, which is explicitly stated to be the end of THIS AGE. If it was true that the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the NEXT AGE, he would have said 'Let the wheat be gathered into the barn at the end of this age, but let the tares be cast into the fire at the end of the next age,' but he didn't say that. He said:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

51 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The word 'Then' above shows WHEN the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of their father. When do the righteous shine forth? At the Second Coming they are given their reward when he says 'But gather the wheat into my barn.' This does not happen at the end of the 1000 years, but it states the wicked are cast into the fire WHEN the righteous shine forth.

(Hope you don't mind; I added your quote of the Scriptures in as a "QUOTE" in quotation marks rather than a separate quotation box. The quotation boxes are not included when one quotes what the other has said.)

Let's look at the WHOLE parable, both what He said to all the crowd and then the explanation He gives to His disciples:

Matthew 13:24-30 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this!'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

(Before I continue, allow me to explain about my quotation marks and colorings when quoting Scripture:

Firstly, I do add the quotation marks in a series of nested quotes like this:
" ' " ' "..." ' " ' ". It helps to see who said what.

Secondly, I add green coloring to narration, red lettering to the words of Yeshua` ("Jesus"), and blue lettering to the words of any other human being or angel. If God the Father is being quoted, I use royal purple lettering. That way, one can see at a glance who is saying what.

Thirdly, multiple paragraphs said by the same person are all begun with the same quotation marks but they don't end until the last paragraph is said by that person.)

Now, let's look at His explanation to the disciples later:

Matthew 13:36-43 (KJV)

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = age);
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Notice that THIS parable is given with a GOOD LIST of the elements of the parable! He gives us SEVEN, clear elements and their meanings! Whenever you see a list like this, simply replace the "is" (or "are") with an equal sign ("="), as one does in translating word problems into math problems. These elements can be substituted into the original parable, like this (I'll keep the substitutions in black):

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the servants of the Son of man came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'The devil hath done this!'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = age): and in the time of the end of the world (Greek: aioonos = age) I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."'"

Now, attach the interpretation:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = age). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

It's IMPORTANT to understand that Yeshua` starts with the statement, "The Kingdom of heaven is likened unto...!" This parable is NOT going on right now! It doesn't start until the Son of man returns and sows the children of the Kingdom into HIS world! Then, look at verse 41! "they (the angels) will gather OUT of HIS Kingdom all offenders and those who do iniquity and throw them into a furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire)," and THEN the righteous shall shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their FATHER! That's the difference between the Kingdom of the Son of man and the Kingdom of God the Father!

Now, before we look at the Olivet Discourse (in Matthew 25), the Sheep and the Goats, let's look at what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15: Now, he said much about the resurrections in this "Resurrection Chapter" of the Bible, but this part is significant:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 BUT every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son (the Messiah) also himself be subject unto him (God the Father) that put all things under him (the Messiah), that God (the Father) may be all in all.

Now, most understand (0) and (1) as being TWO different resurrections, but they often MISS the THIRD (2) resurrection! I believe that's because of the introduction of the verse number at this point in the text. Verse (and chapter) numbers are arbitrary and weren't originally in the text of the passage as written. They weren't added until the mid-16th century MUCH later! Therefore, they are NOT inspired by God!

So, the "zeroeth" resurrection, the "wave-offering of the first harvest" was when the Messiah Himself was raised to life from the dead.

The "first" resurrection will be of those who belong to the Messiah at His coming.

The "second" resurrection will be AT THE END, when the Messiah has already ruled and reigned and "hath had all things put under His feet." That's when the Messiah Himself "shall be subject unto Him (God the Father) who PUT all things under His feet!" From that point on, God the Father shall be reigning in HIS Kingdom!

NOW we can go to other passages of Scripture and fill in the missing pieces.

51 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

We have the same word 'then' being used in both the sheep and the goats and wheat and the tares:

Wheat and tares:

1) He shall cast them into a furnace of fire...

2) THEN shall the righteous shine forth

Sheep and Goats:

So both the sheep and the goats are before Jesus at the same time...all people are gathered before him. He says to the sheep 'come ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom...

It is adding to the text to say they were thrown into the fire at the end of the 1000 years...the righteous are rewarded and enter into the kingdom, and the wicked are rewarded and are cast into the fire. 

Okay, let's go back and see the BEGINNING of this statement of the facts in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 25):

Again, the first 13 verses of the 25th chapter of Matthew are indeed a parable: It is called the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" and that is true, for it begins with the statement:

Matthew 25:1 (KJV)

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be LIKENED unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. ..."

The second 17 verses, beginning with verse 14 and ending with verse 30, is the Parable of the Talents for verse 14 says,

Matthew 25:14 (KJV)

14 "For the kingdom of heaven is AS a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. ..."

But, "the Sheep and the Goats" is NOT a parable! It starts differently! Let's see the whole passage:

Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.' 

37 "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?' 

40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,

"'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not!' 

44 "Then shall they also answer him, saying,

"'Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?' 

45 "Then shall he answer them, saying,

"'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me!' 

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

This happens at the BEGINNING of the reign of the Son of man, LONG before the end of His reign when the second resurrection occurs.

I'll stop there for now and let you digest that much. Then, if you'd like, we can investigate the other passages you quote.

May the LORD open your eyes.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's IMPORTANT to understand that Yeshua` starts with the statement, "The Kingdom of heaven is likened unto...!" This parable is NOT going on right now! It doesn't start until the Son of man returns and sows the children of the Kingdom into HIS world! Then, look at verse 41! "they (the angels) will gather OUT of HIS Kingdom all offenders and those who do iniquity and throw them into a furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire)," and THEN the righteous shall shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of their FATHER!

Do you agree the harvest is the end of this age and not the end of the 1000 years?

Quote

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

This does not say 'As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of the next age.'

Blessings to you- Gary

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hello...Good to meet you...:)

     The problem is in understanding what the first resurrection is. The somewhat common belief is that in order to be in the first resurrection, the believers must be resurrected before the unbelievers, and this is translated into the believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, and the unbelievers are resurrected at the end of the thousand years.

Yes, I have heard this kind of talk. I don't believe it at all. The first resurrection is a "general" resurrection. I believe the second is too.

There will those who died in the Millennium who became followers of Jesus and those who rejected Him too. They will be brought before Him. 

[Uriah]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

I get that. What I can't do is ignore Rev 2o:4 and Rev 7:13-14.

You also can't make scriptures collide against each other. When Jesus says ALL will hear His voice, THAT is - THE- resurrection. All means ALL. It seems to me you are reading things into it. There are some "out of silence" references you made. It will turn into another Frankenstein.

Rev 11:18- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So here we have the resurrection at the seventh/last trumpet. Some are rewarded, some are destroyed. No special groups. so instead of seeking what it doesn't say, I am adding to the full picture. This is why I said the martyrs and refusers of the mark are to be taken as those who "stand out in the crowd."

Edited May 15, 2022 by Uriah
Add a verse

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Yes, I have heard this kind of talk. I don't believe it at all. The first resurrection is a "general" resurrection. I believe the second is too.

Yes, when the concept of a pre tribulation rapture became widespread the idea of a general resurrection at the Second Coming sort of faded away. But as you say, there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust at the Second Coming and there will also be another resurrection of the good and the bad at the end of the 1000 years.  

Blessings to you