Was There More to Christ's Sufferings?

[Rukkus]

You say that you don't believe Jesus bore His sins in His Spirit??? Then what is the point of this whole debate?

The purpose of the debate is at the beginning of the thread at the beginning of the discussion.

You contradict yourself.

I do? How? Show me specifically (cut and paste) where I said one thing, and then went back on it.

I believe that Jesus became sin itself also and I agree with what the Word says. Only...we differ in our interpretations. My interpretation is in harmony with the whole of Scripture...yours is not.

Well . . . You're only stating something . . . You need to be specific about what part of my interpretation is wrong, and we can go from there.

Exactly my point...those verses show that Jesus died physically, yet was quickened by the Spirit. James says that sin when it is finished bringeth forth death. If Jesus' Spirit became sin...Jesus would have to have died Spiritually. If Jesus' Spirit did not become sin...He would not have had to died Spiritually. Show me a Scripture where it says specifically that Jesus died Spiritually and I will present additional verses to support my case.

The only thing is . . . "dying spiritually" is a term not used in the Bible . . . Thus the point you're trying to make can't be made, because you're referring to something not in the Bible. What do you mean "die spiritually'? Show it biblically, and we can go from there.

The truth is...you have no verses to prove your theory so you are merely pointing the fingers at me. The Word clearly says that Jesus bore our sins in His body...even you agree to that. Please show me a verse that supports your theory and we will continue this discussion. Until then...consider your doctrine lacking

What theory?

The Spirit of Christ did take on the sins of the world in His body. His flesh did become sin. But does this make Christ Jesus a sinner? Absolutely NO!

Well, part of Jesus is His flesh . . . Jn 1 says specifically that the Word (that's Jesus) became flesh. So if His flesh was filled with sin, and you said "Jesus became a sinner because He was filled with sin" then how is that biblically wrong?

In fact, Jesus' Christ's Spirit dwells in each and every believer today, in our flesh, so are you saying that Jesus Christ is a sinner because of "Christ in you"?

No. Because when Jesus died, He was freed from sin . . . Just like all of us (Rom 6:7-11)

You are failing to divide the Word in a Biblical fashion and are stumbling at the letter.

Alright. Again . . . Making these statements don't help anyone . . . Prove it to me biblically . . . cause I won't pay attention to "you're wrong" "that's blasphemy" these sort of remarks won't get us anywhere.

Remember that Jesus becoming flesh does not mean what you think it does.

I think it means that He became flesh . . . Cause that's what it says . . .

Jesus' Spirit wasn't literally turned into flesh...the Spirit of Christ dwelt inside of that flesh...which is different than you insinuate.

Well . . . I'm just going to stay with what the Bible says on this . . . The Word was made flesh.

God was MANIFIEST in the flesh. To say that the Spirit of Christ and the flesh of Christ were one and the same is heresy. Would you say that of yourself even??? Surely not.

No, I don't think Christ's Spirit and Christ's flesh are the same . . . I think they all make up who Christ is . . . Because you can find scripture that says Jesus is flesh, and Jesus is spirit (Jn 1:14, 2Cor 3:17). So I believe that Jesus is flesh and Jesus is Spirit. Just like you can find scriptures that say man is flesh, and man is spirit (Gen 6:3, Jn 3:6)

In fact, John 3:6 shows it very clearly . . . We, as humans are born from flesh, and that makes us flesh . . . When we get born of the Spirit, we are spirit . . . In the same way, Jesus was made flesh (Jn 1:14) by being born of flesh (Jn 3:6)

By the "spiritually spotless part"...I mean that Jesus never died spiritually nor took on the sins of the world in His Spirit...and neither can you nor anyone else prove this or show this from Scripture.

Of course you can't . . . And I say so in my opening statement . . . You can't prove anyone is dead spiritually, or has ever been dead spiritually . . . Because that phrase isn't in the Bible . . . So you would be debating if Christ died spiritually . . . When you can't even find this phrase in the Bible to begin with. . . . What do you mean dead spiritually?

You can interpret certain Scriptures in this light, being ignorant of the whole of the Word, but we must show ourselves workmen rightly diving the Word of Truth. To say that Jesus died spiritually is heresy.

What does die spiritually mean?

Jesus was not a sinner and I don't know how you can even let those words come out of your mouth without cringing and then repenting soon after.

Well . . . I said you don't have to use that term if you don't want to . . . But it means the same thing . . . To be filled with sin.

And Jesus was filled with sin bodily...but this fails to make Him a sinner.

Well . . . The Bible says Jesus was made to be flesh (Jn 1:14).

A sinner is one guilty of an act. In act, Jesus never sinned...which would have been made void had Jesus' Spirit not been pure at all times.

I'm very specific in the article to point out that Jesus never commited a single sin . . . The Bible says he knew no sin . . . But that God made Him sin (2Cor 5:21).

Because you have defiled the temple of the Holy Ghost (as we all have)...does this make Christ a sinner???

Well, that's another subject for another day . . . I could talk for hours about believers going around confessing they always sin and will always sin and will always have sin in them . . . Blasphemes God . . . God is light and in Him is no darkness (1Jn 1). If you're in Christ, then you legally have no sin. If you did, this indeed would make Christ a sinner, because a sinner means to be filled with sins . . . Now I'm going to stop right there concerning this subject (that is, the subject of believers having sin) because I want to stay on track with the subject at hand. The subject I came here about, discussed in the original post. You can get more information on the subject of believers being free from sin by going to our site and reading our book "The End of The Sin Problem" "Upon The Word" but this isn't what I want to discuss on this message board . . . . I want to stay with the subject at hand.

[artsylady]

I was thinking earlier today about how it must have felt for Jesus to have to also see his earthly mother in emotional torment, while she was watching him die a slow and painful death. Neither could help the other.

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus...the Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ was God. God cannot die. God is One. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus Christ shed His Blood for our sins, died on a tree, crucified on a cross, and was quickened by the Spirit. We are clearly told that Jesus Christ died physically and I challenge you to show from the Word where Jesus took on death to His Spirit. That is what is at hand...very simple. Just to be totally clear on the matter:

SHOW A VERSE THAT SAYS JESUS DIED, NOT JUST PHYSICALLY ON THE CROSS, BUT IN HIS SPIRIT.

"Jesus...said unto them, Destroy this TEMPLE, and in three days I will raise it up...He spake of the temple of His BODY."-John 2:21

"...The Blood of Christ, through the ETERNAL SPIRIT (Eternal Spirit cannot die), offered Himself without spot to God..."-Hebrews 9:14 [if Jesus took on sin in His Spirit, as you say, then certainly He would not have been "without spot"]

"...Christ...being put to death in the FLESH, but QUICKENED by the Spirit."-1 Peter 3:18

"...It pleased the Lord to bruise Him, He hath put Him to grief: when Thou shalt make His soul and OFFERING for sin."-Isaiah 53:10 [Jesus soul isn't made "sin", it is made an "offering" FOR SIN. Big difference.]

God bless.

[Rukkus]

I was thinking earlier today about how it must have felt for Jesus to have to also see his earthly mother in emotional torment, while she was watching him die a slow and painful death.  Neither could help the other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm. I never thought of that. . . Although it was something that you saw in the movie "The Passion" But thanks for your input

[Rukkus]

Rukkus...the Bible is very clear that Jesus Christ was God. God cannot die. God is One. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus Christ shed His Blood for our sins, died on a tree, crucified on a cross, and was quickened by the Spirit. We are clearly told that Jesus Christ died physically and I challenge you to show from the Word where Jesus took on death to His Spirit.

First you've got to show me where it says that anyone took on death in their spirit. I don't know what you mean when you say that.

That is what is at hand...very simple. Just to be totally clear on the matter:

SHOW A VERSE THAT SAYS JESUS DIED, NOT JUST PHYSICALLY ON THE CROSS, BUT IN HIS SPIRIT.

I don't know of any scripture that shows it's possible to die in your spirit (whether Jesus', or anyone's spirit) . . . So I don't know what you mean.

[halifaxchristian]

Rukkus:

"...For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou SHALT SURELY DIE."-Genesis 2:17

Adam and Eve did not die that day...but did die spiritually...if they didn't die spiritually...that prophecy was a lie...because Adam lived to be very old. Also, it is obvious that they died spiritually because Adam knew he was separated from God after eating of the Tree:

"...I was afraid, because I was naked; and hid myself."-Genesis 3:10

Paul says to believers:

"And you hath He quickened, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins...the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience...And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in HEAVENLY (SPIRITUAL) PLACES in Christ Jesus."-Ephesians 2:1-6

Revelation also speaks of the second death...after physical death...etc.

I would continue on...but first...on what basis do you deny that there is such thing as spiritual death? Do you not think that Satan is spiritually dead? What about the un-saved? Would you call them spiritually alive? We are misunderstanding each other somewhere. Please elaborate.

God bless.

[Rukkus]

"...For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou SHALT SURELY DIE."-Genesis 2:17

Adam and Eve did not die that day...but did die spiritually...if they didn't die spiritually...that prophecy was a lie...because Adam lived to be very old. Also, it is obvious that they died spiritually because Adam knew he was separated from God after eating of the Tree:

"...I was afraid, because I was naked; and hid myself."-Genesis 3:10

Alright . . . What does it mean to be dead spiritually, though? That's my whole point is that the Bible does not define "spiritually dead" we just assume it when we read certain scriptures. Like for instance, the scripture you just gave. It is true the Bible doesn't say Adam and Eve died physically that day. So I can see the logic on concluding that they must have died spiritually. So then the question is . . . What is spiritual death? And there is no scripture to my knowledge that says "this is what spiritual death is . . ." So you were asking me to find a scripture that says Jesus died spiritually . . . When that phrase isn't even coined in the BIble. So I'm asking, "what does it mean to be dead spiritually?" And as I pointed out in the opening statement . . . Some Christians would agree that being seperated from God is spiritual death . . . So if you're going by that definition . . . Then Jesus died physically, because God forsook Him. Others will say that being spiritually dead is when you have sin. In which case, Jesus died spiritually, because He had all our sins. Do you see what I'm saying? The problem with using the term "spiritual death" is two-fold

1. That phrase isn't in the Bible so it's up to us to define what it means

2. Different Christians define it different ways.

So when you ask me to show you scripture that says Jesus died spiritually . . . Well, it depends on how you define spiritual death . . . Otherwise, how will I show you?

Paul says to believers:

"And you hath He quickened, WHO WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins...the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience...And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in HEAVENLY (SPIRITUAL) PLACES in Christ Jesus."-Ephesians 2:1-6

Revelation also speaks of the second death...after physical death...etc.

I would continue on...but first...on what basis do you deny that there is such thing as spiritual death? Do you not think that Satan is spiritually dead? What about the un-saved? Would you call them spiritually alive? We are misunderstanding each other somewhere. Please elaborate.

It's not that I deny there is such a thing as spiritual death. It's that the phrase isn't used in the Bible, so if we were to have biblical discussion about it, you would have to define it for me from the Bible. Otherwise, how can you have a biblical discussion over an unbiblical word? Now, I do notice the verses you quoted, and I do see that they speak of another death that is not physical . . . So the question is . . . What kind of death is this? Can you define it biblically? And from there I can answer your question as to whether or not Jesus died spiritually.

[halifaxchristian]

I think that we are both on par with what the definition of SPIRITUAL DEATH is. You said it: that one is guilty of SIN, and/or SEPARATED FROM GOD.

I asked you to show from Scripture where it says that Jesus was separated from God or guilty of sin...and you have not shown me.

There is ONE REFERENCE to Jesus and God being separated and your interpretation is not in harmony with the rest of Scripture. Jesus said that His Father would be with Him when the disciples left...clearly insinuating that the Father would never leave Him, even throughout His ordeal on the cross. The "forsakenment" was explained on my part...that Jesus was forsaken unto death on the cross.

Jesus was put to death in the flesh...bore our sins in His flesh...but remained SINLESS. And sinlessness is a SPIRITUAL THING...not a bodily thing. Jesus became sin...by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh.

You keep accusing me of not accepting the Word for what it says...but I am. Yes...Jesus was forsaken. Yes...He became sin. But, in accordance with the whole of the Word, it is very clear that this death and sin-bearing was physical, not spiritual.

I would like to see your support...using other verses in their context.

[halifaxchristian]

The mystery of Christ's sacrificie is this:

God, Who is eternal, cannot die...took on a human body...so that He could die...and redeem us from the curse of the Law.

[Rukkus]

I think that we are both on par with what the definition of SPIRITUAL DEATH is. You said it: that one is guilty of SIN, and/or SEPARATED FROM GOD.

I asked you to show from Scripture where it says that Jesus was separated from God or guilty of sin...and you have not shown me.

No . . . I don't think Jesus was guilty of sin. I think He had all the sins of the world placed in His body (1Pt 2:24), and some would say that having sin is spiritual death. Therefore, according to that definition, Jesus died spiritually. Now, if you don't agree with that definition of spiritual death . . . That's fine. It's not a biblical term so there's no use fighting over it.

There is ONE REFERENCE to Jesus and God being separated and your interpretation is not in harmony with the rest of Scripture.

What interpretation?

Jesus said that His Father would be with Him when the disciples left...clearly insinuating that the Father would never leave Him, even throughout His ordeal on the cross.

Well, you feel He was insinuating that God would never leave Him, but first of all, it doesn't say this. Second of all, it does say that God did forsake Him.

The "forsakenment" was explained on my part...that Jesus was forsaken unto death on the cross.

Well, I don't want to be rude, but I'm not looking for you to explain scriptures. I'm looking for you to support what you say with scripture. In other words, what you say needs to be supported by scripture. If you read one thing and feel it's talking about something else, or insinuating something else, that's between you and the Lord. But I'm not going to take your meaning on that scripture. It says God had forsaken Him, and that's what I believed happened. And there is more than one reference. Psalm 22 also echos this fact. So does 1Jn 1. That is, that God is light and in Him is no darkness. If Jesus was made sin (2Cor 5:21) then He would not be able to be in the Father, because in the Father is no darkness.

Jesus was put to death in the flesh...bore our sins in His flesh...but remained SINLESS.

Well, part of Jesus is His flesh. Just like part of you is your flesh. I've already shown this biblically. Jn 1:14, the Word was made flesh. Jn 3:6 Jesus says here that whatever is born of flesh is flesh. And according to Gal 4:4 Jesus was made, or born, of a woman. According to Jn 3:6 what would that make Jesus? Flesh. Just like you being born of your parents makes you flesh. Now, that's not all there is to who you are, nor is it all there is to who Jesus is, but it's certainly part of it.

And sinlessness is a SPIRITUAL THING...not a bodily thing.

I don't know what you mean when you say this . . .

Jesus became sin...by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh.

If Jesus was made sin by being born into the world as flesh, that would mean He was sin from the moment of conception. That would put Him in the same boat as everyone born into the world, only worse. Because everyone born into the world has death passed upon them because of Adam (Rom 5) but Jesus was born sin itself . . . This would mean Jesus was born as the very cause of death (Rom 5) which is sin. How, then, would He be a spotless lamb?

You keep accusing me of not accepting the Word for what it says...but I am.

If I ever accuse you of that, I'll be able to prove it. If you can show me where I accused you, I'll prove I was right.

Yes...Jesus was forsaken. Yes...He became sin. But, in accordance with the whole of the Word, it is very clear that this death and sin-bearing was physical, not spiritual.

I don't know what you mean when you say it is wasn't spiritual. The Lord is Spirit (2Cor 3:17). If the Lord is Spirit, and the BIble says He was made sin, then how can you say it was only physical?

I would like to see your support...using other verses in their context.

Support for what?