Was There More to Christ's Sufferings?

[halifaxchristian]

The Bible is true when it says that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. I am not saying you aren't saved...but I would be surely scared if I were you. To believe the Jesus was separated from the Father, ceased to be God, ceased to be a spotless Lamb, and became sin in Spirit...is nothing short of blasphemy. It disputes the nature of Christ, His sacrifice, His perfection, Eternalness, and Unity with the Godhead.

We are going in circles...I have presented my case...and you do not understand it. Please pray over the matter...the Holy Ghost does a much better job of teaching than I ever could.

Jesus died PHYSICALLY, not SPIRITUALLY. To say that Christ died SPIRITUALLY is absolutely blasphemous.

Of course...that is my opinion...and my opinion means nothing apart from the Holy Spirit. So please ask Him to reveal to you and guide you into all truth as Jesus promised.

God bless.

[Rukkus]

The Bible is true when it says that the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit. I am not saying you aren't saved...but I would be surely scared if I were you.

Well thanks

To believe the Jesus was separated from the Father, ceased to be God, ceased to be a spotless Lamb, and became sin in Spirit...is nothing short of blasphemy.

Well, I don't know about the part pertaining to Him ceasing to be God . . . But the rest I've shown scripture for. Jesus was forsaken by God. There are a number of scriptures that show this . . .

Mt:27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mk:15:34: And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Ps:22:1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

And

1Jn:1:5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

put together with

2Cor:5:21: For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

And Jesus was made sin . . . You can readily see that from the verse above. As far as Jesus being the spotless Lamb . . . Well of course I believe He was and is. But on the cross He had to become everything that God abhorres and curses (2Cor 5:21, Gal 3:13). Jesus became sin, and had sin placed within Him (1Pt 2:24) this is clearly shown by scripture. Now, you can change around the scriptures and claim they mean something else . . . But if you're staying with purley the Word (which is what I want to do) then this is what it says.

It disputes the nature of Christ, His sacrifice, His perfection, Eternalness, and Unity with the Godhead.

Well, I don't know about that . . . But I do know that all the works and doctrines of men will be tried in the fire, and will burn away (1Cor 3:13-15). But God's Words are pure, tried seven times (Ps 12:6)

Those are the words I'm going to hold onto.

We are going in circles...I have presented my case...and you do not understand it.

You're right . . . I don't understand it. One big reason is because you keep talking of things being "spiritual" but then not defining those "spiritual things" from the Bible, so that I don't understand what you mean. If you mean Jesus was not forsaken by God spiritually as meaning, God stayed with His Spirit, well then I disagree. The Bible says Jesus is Spirit (2Cor 3:17) and that Jesus was forsaken (see verses above)

Please pray over the matter...the Holy Ghost does a much better job of teaching than I ever could.

Jesus died PHYSICALLY, not SPIRITUALLY. To say that Christ died SPIRITUALLY is absolutely blasphemous.

Well, it depends on what you mean when you say "spiritually" I've already proven from scripture that depending on the definition of "dying spiritually" that Christ did indeed die spiritually. But I just stay away from that phrase since it's not a biblical phrase, and people define it different ways. I'd rather stay with what the Bible says.

Of course...that is my opinion...and my opinion means nothing apart from the Holy Spirit. So please ask Him to reveal to you and guide you into all truth as Jesus promised.

Well thank you for your time and patience

Edited September 1, 2005 by Rukkus

[gypc]

The reason that Jesus did not die spiritually is he would have stopped being God.

[halifaxchristian]

Jesus became sin...in Body (physical)

Jesus was forsaken...unto death on the cross (physical)

Jesus did not die Spiritually and that is not hard to understand.

Again...please pray for guidance.

Remember: I BELIEVE in the same verses you use in your defence. I VERY MUCH BELIEVE in them. But I tend to try to make a habit of not interpreting the Word of God apart from the whole...and apart from the Holy Spirit. I fear that you are interpreting the Bible according to preconceived notions and doctrines of men. Did flesh and blood reveal this doctrine to you...or the Father?

This is a serious issue...and one you should really take up with the Lord.

I believed as you did at one point...but I never had a peace with it or a rest in my soul.

[gypc]

This is a serious issue...and one you should really take up with the Lord.

You speak the truth. This is very serious.!!!!

I use to believe this way also through preachers like Ken Copeland and Ken Hagin..........but after some serious praying and studying, I reject this teaching as false. It's just another "New Revelation" that is in error.

Rukkus, I've seen your website and I pray that more christians would do things like that........however, this "Jesus died spiritually" teaching is false. Please seek God on this before you continue with it.

Peace

[halifaxchristian]

I very much agree gypc...only the Devil could be behind the idea that Jesus died in Spirit.

I very much relate to Rukkus...as I believed that doctrine before also...

But as I said...I never had a peace with it and am so thankful that God led me to the Truth concerning His Son and His sacrifice.

God bless.

[Rukkus]

Jesus became sin...in Body (physical)

The Bible doesn't say the latter part of your comment.

Jesus was forsaken...unto death on the cross (physical)

The Bible doesn't say the latter part of this comment either.

Jesus did not die Spiritually and that is not hard to understand.

Of course the Bible doesn't say this . . . Because dying spiritually isn't a biblical phrase.

Again...please pray for guidance.

I do, and I will continue to.

Remember: I BELIEVE in the same verses you use in your defence. I VERY MUCH BELIEVE in them. But I tend to try to make a habit of not interpreting the Word of God apart from the whole...and apart from the Holy Spirit.

I just believe the Bible . . . If the Bible doesn't say it, I won't add it.

I fear that you are interpreting the Bible according to preconceived notions and doctrines of men. Did flesh and blood reveal this doctrine to you...or the Father?

Well, if it came from the Bible (which I've shown it has) then it had to have been God. And I can prove it . . . You know how? Because I've got scripture that says it.

This is a serious issue...and one you should really take up with the Lord.

I believed as you did at one point...but I never had a peace with it or a rest in my soul.

Well . . . All I can say is that I will continue to believe what the Bible says about it . . . If you can prove to me specifically from the Bible where I am wrong, I'll repent and stop believing it. But I can't stop believing it just because you tell me that when the BIble says Jesus became sin, it was only his flesh. Or that when the Bible says Jesus was forsaken by God it was only unto the death of the cross. No, I've got to stay with the Bible. No more, no less. That's how I know I can be justified in my sayings and overcome when I'm judged (Rom 3:4)

I really encourage everyone to go to our site and either order a free copy, or read it from the site, our book "An End to All Strife"

Edited September 3, 2005 by Rukkus

[gypc]

. . If you can prove to me specifically from the Bible where I am wrong, I'll repent and stop believing it. "

John 19:28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

That's it........it's done.........he didn't go and suffer in hell. His Blood was the prfect sacrifice.

1st Cor 11:24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Body and Blood........no mention of Spirit. If his Spirit died then he would have said this is my spirit that dies for you.

[Rukkus]

John 19:28After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

29Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

That's it........it's done.........

Well, it's always been done. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth (Rev 13:8). Yet if you look at it in the order that is given in the New Testament you see there was more to the Work Christ did. For instance, He was raised because of, or for, our justification (Rom 4:25). He also needed to go into the Heavenly Holy of Holies to present His blood in order to obtain eternal redemption (Heb 9:12). So, I do agree with you that it was finished when Jesus said it was finished. In fact, it had been finished from the foundation of the earth. However, as Halifax said, we should take all the counsel of God's Word. And the rest of God's Word reveals to us details of the Redemptive Work of Christ, which I show in the opening statement of this discussion.

he didn't go and suffer in hell.

Well, I don't think I ever said Jesus suffered in hell.

His Blood was the prfect sacrifice.

I agree. But there was more to it than just His blood. If Jesus would not have ever raised we would have a dead religion like the rest of the world. . . . Even if you had the shed blood of a Saviour, without a Resurrection of a Saviour, it would be vain (1Cor 15:14)

1st Cor 11:24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Body and Blood........no mention of Spirit. If his Spirit died then he would have said this is my spirit that dies for you.

Well . . . Are you arguing something I said? I'm not sure what you mean by this comment. Or is this your definition of spiritual death? did I ever claim Jesus' Spirit died?

Edited September 3, 2005 by Rukkus

[gypc]

did I ever claim Jesus' Spirit died?

I've already proven from scripture that depending on the definition of "dying spiritually" that Christ did indeed die spiritually.