Is belief in the Trinity essential to one's Salvat

[apothanein kerdos]

Travellar.....I have no idea in the world what you're trying to prove. Like, you're off the wall.

Anyway:

You said "It's a simple fact, you've shown that you haven't studied scripture at the point you say Jesus and none of the books dealt with the Trinity or Jesus' deity."

I never said that. This is a lie, one you made up to cast doubt by blending two terms as though they are one.

Do you go blank when you post?

So you're saying I"m lying about this?

If Jesus, when He physically walked and ministered, wanted to introduce the term and doctrinal explainations of the TRINITY, He would have done so, but neither He, nor His apostles, nor any writer of scripture, ever coined such a term, nor set the doctrine of TRINITY in any conclusive form, and certainly none ever REQUIRED acceptance of such for salvation.

Seems pretty conclusive to me. The Trinity IS partially the teaching of Jesus' deity. Thus to say the concept isn't found in the Bible is to admit you haven't studied the issue. You did say this, it's a simple fact, it shows you haven't studied. It's no lie.

Your story changes with the interchange of Trinity and Jesus' deity, as though both terms are the same, they are not. I NEVER in any way said Jesus is not deity. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh (as the scripture says).

Once again you said,"This is the same thing. If a person says the Bible doesn't adress the diety of Jesus or the Trinity then they have not done a serious study of scripture."

You said, "Where in the world did I change my story? I dare you to quote me where I said belief in the Trinity is essential (though to be a growing Christian I do believe one has to believe in the trinity). What I said was belief in the [i[deity of Christ. You hold a mute point until you can adequately address this. As it is, I've used Greek, looked at the issue in context, brought forth the context of scripture, etc. You have not. Yeah...I'm really running out of facts here"

Reading comprehension would do you well mate.

Look to the first quote of mine. FIrst, this is not an interchange of terms but a distinction between them. Note the use of the word "or" between "Trinity" and "deity of Jesus." THis would indicate that I seperating the terms. Secondly, I was addressing a person showing study, NOT salvation. I said a person who denies that scripture talks about the deity of Jesus OR the Trinity is not STUDIED IN SCRIPTURE. I said nothing about salvation. Thus the second one still stands...you're simply delaying because....well...I don't think you even know what you're debating.

You also said, "The Trinity is not just "some doctrine." It is the core doctrine of God. IF we remove the Trinity we remove 80% of Christian doctrine including the death and ressurection. It is that vital."

Where is your scripture for this statement? Or does 80% of your doctrine originate from some man made doctrine that is NOT FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURE? You may choose any language you like for response.

First, about your absurd and obnoxious use of "language." Apparently you aren't aware of this, but the Bible was actually written in Greek and Hebrew, not English (I know, it's baffling!). That's why I keep appealing to them, to see what it would have said in the original language. How obtuse of me!

As for, "WHERE IS IT IN THE SCRIPTURE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"....get over it already. You've yet to substantiate WHY I have to solely rely on scripture when addressing doctrine solely as that doctrine does not contradict scripture. You have also not explained why doctrine based upon the logical concepts of scripture doesn't apply. "Chapter and verse" is the most ironic argument you can make, because you cannot point to a single scripture that cries for us to rely on "chapter and verse." In other words, the extreme doctrine of sola scriptura (that you butcher and isn't even true sola scriptura) that you uphold...that all doctrine must have a place in a specific verbage point in the Bible...isn't even found int he Bible, thus de-legitmizing itself.

Moving on to the essential nature of the Trinity doctrine. Within the Trinity doctrine we have the idea of fellowship, that prior to creation there was unity and fellowship within the Trinity. From this, when we were created in His image, we too were created with this desire for fellowship. If we remove the Trinity doctrie, we mar our own image and declare that we actually don't have to work via fellowship and can be just as effective as autonomous individuals (as we would in the image of God). This is why "oneness" cannot work and is a false, or incorrect, doctrine (note that I did not say heretical). Denying the deity of Christ, however, is heretical in that it effects the very nature of our salvation. The Bible does teach that no man is perfect and that man, by his own fallen nature, cannot obtain perfection. Thus, in order to believe in a pure sacrifice, we HAVE to accept that God came down and died for us. If we deny Jesus is God we make the implication that He was not perfect (all men are guilty) and by making such implication we say that the sacrifice was tainted. In doing this we are actually denying the sacrifice.

Basically mate, give it up because you're really starting to not make any sense.

[Smalcald]

You also said, "The Trinity is not just "some doctrine." It is the core doctrine of God. IF we remove the Trinity we remove 80% of Christian doctrine including the death and ressurection. It is that vital."

Where is your scripture for this statement? Or does 80% of your doctrine originate from some man made doctrine that is NOT FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURE? You may choose any language you like for response.

How do you deal with the fact that all three are called God in the Scirptures, that all three are shown in the Scriptures, to demonstrate Divine characteristics that only God can possess?

Yes that is it in a nutshell. I think you also demonstrated it well with the passages from John on another trinity thread. The scriptural support is overwhelming and clear.

I think people get caught up in trying to understand how it actually works, so it is hard for them to leave our human understanding and look at scripture, it is hard for me. I mean how can Jesus call out to His Father on the cross, and yet be the Father? But yet that is the truth of scripture, it is demonstrated, Christ is both man and God, true man and true God, which is impossible for us to understand intellectually, thus we try to fill in the blanks with our own ideas and theories, that somehow Jesus is less than God, that God made Jesus, that Christ is a created being.

It is an important topic though, not because of the mystery of the Trinity and the Theology behind that necessarily, but more importantly because we are now talking about who Jesus is, and that point is critical. I mean Muslims believe that Christ ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God, was born to the virgin Mary etc. What don

[Joe@actsii]

I mean Muslims believe that Christ ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God, was born to the virgin Mary etc. What don

[Smalcald]

I mean Muslims believe that Christ ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God, was born to the virgin Mary etc. What don

[RGR]

The Islamic view is actually much closer to Christianity than the Jewish view for example. Muslims accept that Christ ascended into heaven, that He was indeed the most anointed prophet of God, that He was born of a Virgin and has a role in judgement.

No offense intended, but Islam has about as much to do with Christianity as Jed Clampett did with sophistication!

[Guest shiloh357]

I mean how can Jesus call out to His Father on the cross, and yet be the Father? But yet that is the truth of scripture, it is demonstrated, Christ is both man and God, true man and true God, which is impossible for us to understand intellectually

Nowhere does it say that Jesus is the Father. Jesus was reciting from the book of Psalms. "Eli Eli Lama zavtani?" Jesus is God, but He is not the Father.

[Joe@actsii]

I mean Muslims believe that Christ ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God, was born to the virgin Mary etc. What don

[Adarian]

From the book of John, chapter 16===>>the trinity in a nutshell, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit (the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth).

1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

[Kabowd]

AnotherTraveler......I have no idea what you're trying to say....in any language.....

[Smalcald]

I mean Muslims believe that Christ ascended into Heaven and sits at the right Hand of God, was born to the virgin Mary etc. What don