Why waste the energy?

[SpiritLedEd]

2)The ability of priests to forgive sin. No one can forgive sin except for God

This is also supported by the bible- Christ gave his apostles the ability to forgive sins.

Really? Where?

more, priests don't forgive sins by their own merits, but only by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When one confesses to a priest, they are confessing to Christ.

To put men on the same level of Christ? God forbid!

As a young person in the Catholic Church many years ago, I "went to confession" before a priest many times. I lost intetrest in that practice, I think, partly because the priests themselves didn't seem interested. From the sound of their voices, I gathered that they were either tired or bored and would rather be anywhere but in that confessional booth.

The Catholic teaching was and is that when the priest pronounces forgiveness of sin, he is speaking on behalf of Jesus. How could I continue to believe that when the priests I dealt with made it obvious that they would much rather be doing something else at that moment; that something that was important to me was

"ho-hum to them?

[Sgtazur]

No, they did not. If you believe this myth, then simply show me any credible source on when and where the Catholic Church outlawed it.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

Rome's attempt to keep the Bible from men has continued to recent times. Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) denounced the Bible Society and expressed shock at the circulation of the Scriptures. Pius VII said, "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit." Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

Pope Leo XII, in January 1850, condemned the Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

---------------

And to further it up: for a long time the catholics never wanted the book translated into any vernacular language, meaning only the educated (which at some points in Europe's middle ages were very few) could read it. A very small minority could even touch the book, let alone understand it!

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed, "Against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

"We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. ... Besides We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures."

(Pope Gregory XVI, May 8, 1844, encyclical)

Edited August 30, 2005 by Sgtazur

[JimR-OCDS]

I thought I'd take a look into this forum, after being away for awhile, and the first thread that I see is once again an anti-Catholic one. It really doesn't surprise me!

Anyway, there's lot's of misinformation being posted against the Catholic Church, and I don't care to address all of them, but will address this one.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

This wasn't about the Bible as we know it, but the flawed translations put out by

Waldenses and Albigensians.

[Assisi]

No, they did not. If you believe this myth, then simply show me any credible source on when and where the Catholic Church outlawed it.

The Council of Trent (1545-1564) placed the Bible on its list of prohibited books, and forbade any person to read the Bible without a license from a Roman Catholic bishop or inquisitor. The Council added these words: "That if any one shall dare to read or keep in his possession that book, without such a license, he shall not receive absolution till he has given it up to his ordinary."

Rome's attempt to keep the Bible from men has continued to recent times. Pope Pius VII (1800-1823) denounced the Bible Society and expressed shock at the circulation of the Scriptures. Pius VII said, "It is evidence from experience, that the holy Scriptures, when circulated in the vulgar tongue, have, through the temerity of men, produced more harm than benefit." Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed "against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

Pope Leo XII, in January 1850, condemned the Bible Societies and admitted the fact that the distribution of Scripture has "long been condemned by the holy chair."

---------------

And to further it up: for a long time the catholics never wanted the book translated into any vernacular language, meaning only the educated (which at some points in Europe's middle ages were very few) could read it. A very small minority could even touch the book, let alone understand it!

Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846) railed, "Against the publication, distribution, reading, and possession of books of the holy Scriptures translated into the vulgar tongue."

"We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. ... Besides We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures."

(Pope Gregory XVI, May 8, 1844, encyclical)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pope St. Gregory I (died 604 AD)

"The Emperor of heaven, the Lord of men and of angels, has sent you His epistles for your life

Edited August 30, 2005 by Assisi

[Assisi]

2)The ability of priests to forgive sin. No one can forgive sin except for God

Really? Where?

more, priests don't forgive sins by their own merits, but only by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When one confesses to a priest, they are confessing to Christ.

To put men on the same level of Christ? God forbid!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God gave men the power to forgive sins in His name.

As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.

[halifaxchristian]

Dont we both believe in the same Savior/Creator?

Yes.

And there certainly have been some Catholics greatly used by God to further God's kingdom, like Mother Teresa.

And God bless Mel!

I have a good friend who is Catholic. We've been friends for at least 10 years and don't talk about what divides us, only what unites us - and that is Christ. We can easily talk about many things on spiritual levels and never have to get into any debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mother Teresa didn't even fully believe she was saved....so i guess you know more about her spiritual condition than she did.

[halifaxchristian]

Yes they did.

No, they did not. If you believe this myth, then simply show me any credible source on when and where the Catholic Church outlawed it.

I wouldn't say they outlawed it, rather, they wouldn't let any catholic layman read it. Only the clergy and the pope could, and even then it was in Latin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not aware of any provisions which forbid the clergy from letting layman read the bible.

The problem was was that back then, books were incredibly expensive, most people couldn't even afford basic ones because they were all hand written. Something as large and comprehenive as the bible would have taken an enormous amount of time and money to copy. In the past, pirates, raiders and looters would actually take books with them because they were so valuable.

The only people that would have access to something as valuable as the bible back then would be scholars and they'd know Latin anyways. So, peasants that probably couldn't read didn't have regular access to the bible because of its value, so what? What would a bible like that cost in today's money? $200,000, $300,000? You are just going to let everyone in town thumb through it?

People would still have access to the word of God by what they were taught at Church and told at every Mass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I grew up in the Catholic Church. In my grade school days, we had access to the "Catholic" Bible. It was called the Douay-Rheims Bible and it was written in scholarly archaic English which I found difficult to even get interested in, much less understand.

We technically had access to the Douay-Rheims. Copies could be purchased at Catholic bookstores.

I don't recall ever being told that I could'nt read it; but, on the other hand, I was never encouraged to read it, either.

I don't believe that our local parish priests read it, either. The sermon topics that they preached, including Scripture quotations, came in print form from the hierarchy through the local bishop. I spent nearly 50 years as a Roman Catholic and in all that time, I can only recall three priests who knew the Bible.

It was by subtle inference, not by any official declaration, that we lay people in the Catholic Church came to accept that only members of the hierarchy could understand Scripture. Thus, any interest I had in reading the Bible was squelched.

I believe that, like the Pharisees who battled Jesus, members of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in that day, were in a "circle the wagons" mode, striving to protect their positions; their places of honor.

Praise God that the winds of change are blowing through the Catholic Church at long last.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't get your hopes up.

[HisWordIsSufficient]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition.

So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bluebird...good post...like I have said before...Catholics worship Mary...if Fiosh doesn't worship mary...that makes her a Christian...deceived into fellowshipping in a Catholic Church. We are not trying to tell fiosh where her heart is...we are trying to tell fiosh where catholic hearts are...according to Church teaching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics do not worship Mary. You will not find within the teachings of the Church commands to worship Mary like she was some kind of goddess.

Unless you can prove that Catholics worship Mary, which you can't, you really need to stop with these accusations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look, What do you call an entire congreagation of people whailing "HAIL MARY" over and over every week? Lets see.... idolatry?? Its worship when you adore someone to the point of hailing there name and praying to them. The bigger factor i am trying to point out is that they PRAY to Mary which is pointless. Its like praying to a statue. Oh, hang on they do that too! Statues of her! Thats what i want scripture for. Where it says to pray through saints and Mary. Ill stop with the "accusations" when someone starts giving me scriptural support for the HAIL mary's and the praying to dead people. I dont want any more mouthfulls of self defense for the Catholics tradition if your not going to show scripture.

[halifaxchristian]

Thanks for your reply.

But id rather scripture. I have a catholic bible somewhere, if you want, at least give me scripture from that one, though id prefer reference from the real bible. I have read the bible cover to cover and still read it and i havent found supported scripture, so please, show me.

As far as us interceeding for others.. we do it through Jesus Christ! Do you pray in jesus name to the "saints?" or do you just pray to them, asking them to ask Jesus, to ask the father??? Jesus is our only way and we pray for others, through Jesus. Not pray through others. Mary is worshipped. You pray to her! Were only to pray to the father. Only. So, again i ask for scripture please. Its not picking and choosing sections. That would be silly. By all means, show me a verse, a chapter... a book.. whatever you want, that shows that praying to mary is okay. Or praying to the saints is okay. is infact biblical.

thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know what I do. I do NOT worship Mary. Please do not pretend you can read my mind or see into my heart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to upset you. I dont pretend to know what you do and dont do, but if your a Catholic, thats what they do. And dont tell me they dont. I was lugged around to Catholic churches from a young age and i know the drill, which consists of praying to Mary with much praise. So if you dont, good on you for not following this wrong tradition.

So... still waiting for scripture... if you dont have any just say so and i will rest my case and stick with my views of praying to or through Mary as wrong and unbiblical. Please dont dodge the request. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bluebird...good post...like I have said before...Catholics worship Mary...if Fiosh doesn't worship mary...that makes her a Christian...deceived into fellowshipping in a Catholic Church. We are not trying to tell fiosh where her heart is...we are trying to tell fiosh where catholic hearts are...according to Church teaching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics do not worship Mary. You will not find within the teachings of the Church commands to worship Mary like she was some kind of goddess.

Unless you can prove that Catholics worship Mary, which you can't, you really need to stop with these accusations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look, What do you call an entire congreagation of people whailing "HAIL MARY" over and over every week? Lets see.... idolatry?? Its worship when you adore someone to the point of hailing there name and praying to them. The bigger factor i am trying to point out is that they PRAY to Mary which is pointless. Its like praying to a statue. Oh, hang on they do that too! Statues of her! Thats what i want scripture for. Where it says to pray through saints and Mary. Ill stop with the "accusations" when someone starts giving me scriptural support for the HAIL mary's and the praying to dead people. I dont want any more mouthfulls of self defense for the Catholics tradition if your not going to show scripture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good post blue...BTW...the Catholics on this board don't care what the Scriptures say...they'll interpret Scripture in light of the Catholic Church...regardless of what shananagans they have to pull. The Holy Ghost doesn't have much allowance in their understanding...by their own admission....Catholics believe that the Holy Ghost speaks to their Church...NOT THEM...so they just listen to their Church...hoping its what the Holy Ghost said. Catch 22.

God bless.

[Sgtazur]

Assisi, the very fact that we both can pull up catholic quotes saying "Do this/Don't do this" shows that the catholic church is not a sound church; that they've wavered in opinion from one thing to another.