Get Ready For The Tribulation There Isn't a Pre-Rapture

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

The Church will be raptured before the tribulation. The tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel and has nothing to do with the Church. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened.

It is the 12 tribes across the earth that go through the tribulation. The tribulation occurs during the 70th week of Daniel. 

Dan 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The tribulation saints will mostly be of the 12 tribes as the Church is already in heaven. 

Any unbeliever who comes to Christ during the 7 year tribulation will be saved. Although most of them will be killed by the Antichrist. There is the 12 tribes who will be saved as well. 144,000 Jews will be sealed by God. 

[missmuffet]

Sometimes I think those believers who support  the post tribulation think they will be sealed by God during the 7 year tribulation and will not be harmed but that is not what the Bible tells us. 

[Steveo34]

God wants us to think positive things, don't get yourself tangled up in that.. bless you.

[truecrosstrueshield]

I'll answer everyone at the same time since I did start this topic.

I actually became post trib by the bible alone. Because I was at another Christian forum the more I read in the bible the more post trib was making more sense. However I needed more help from those more experienced on the post view. I stuck to post only because a few verses I found myself makes more sense to me. But I like the answers better also in my post trib reading articles etc. honestly to me pre trib makes no sense any longer in this picture ..

To light. You're the only person I know that accepts both pre and post views simultaneously. Everyone else is either pre or post trib mostly and the fewer preturist and rare mid tribbers. Light your interpretation seems to be unique and different. But also private to the rest of us. We haven't heard someone believing in a church rapture and the end of trib gathering of the tribes both being true. It seems here pre trib is most popular by itself. But I understand. I've been told post trib currently is less popular. That doesn't intimidate me. When Jesus sent out disciples at first most people otherwise didn't believe the same as the 12 or 72. Stephen shown an example a new believer outnumbered who opposed his faith in Jesus. I pick one choice which is the post trib original teaching in our churches over the centuries. Even early writers over the centuries teaching Jesus only returns once after the tribulation. There will be no pre trib commentaries in 200AD, 700AD, 1400Ad and even 1776 AD either.

The bible tells us about the falling away. I believe the pre trib is apostasy teaching since it arrived nearly close to 1850 yrs. after Jesus being on the cross. This began pre trib in the 19th century. Also these often 19th century false teachings as well.

1 The Latter Day Saints, Mormons founded by Joseph Smith Jr and his brother Hyman and Brigham Young kept this Mormon church going after Joseph Smith was killed in prison. We here at home read the official newspaper online story. He tried to break the printing press that partly got him arrested. Being too pushy about his Mormon beliefs on people in the area. They didn't like his teaching and attacked him while he was in jail . . they didn't want this teaching to spread. Brigham however escaped to Utah to keep this going.

2 The Jehovah Witnesses also in the 19th century. The founder is Charles Taze Russell. They used to be called the Russellites. It's in the 20th century they changed to Jehovah Witness. They've been known to keep predicting the end times and Armageddon. I studied with them shortly. I don't agree with them so much anymore.

3 The 7th Day Adventist. This church seems to be mostly preturists. I've looked into. They believe the pope is the worse person ever. They don't believe in end times, or in hell like we do either. It's a very bizarre religion. . They also follow Ellen G White a prophetess. Originally they were known as the Millerites whose someone last name was Miller of course. Since the Millerites prophecy kind of didn't work Ellen took over with her new prophecy to build off the Millerites. Now known as 7th Day Adventist. .

4 Charles Darwin. Well you know what he's about.

The falling away I believe started in the 19th century. Not the 20^th . In God's eyes 200 yrs is short anyways. According to what's said in 2 Peter 3:8 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

To Joseb.

What's my view? My view is that we're people. God needs to repeat to us over and over throughout the bible. It's partly the way he teaches us. Just like a parent does to a child correcting over and over. It also goes to show God lives in every generation. His words will stay consistent from one prophet writer to the next. God is says that a number of times throughout bible scripture. That's why I'm post trib only. Let me describe this way.

Take the 4 gospel writers. You'll see they write some of the same testimonies they've seen and heard etc. While yet they can differ because of experiences in others testimonies. Imagine if the 4 disciples are in the same country. One is in the east side. One in the west side. Third south and fourth north. . You're seeing 4 different aspects in the same country in different places.

Now think about photographs instead. Each disciples took their own pictures of the same things at different angles, reflections of lights, and shadows within pictures. .

So it's in the debate post and pre trib angles. Who sees what? Why don't we agree on this?

In my case I believe post trib because everything I see is agreeing. God is saying different books or chapters a bit different. Because you see he does this in words. There's more describing in words than taking pictures. . The bible is showing us the same events in a number of angles. Christians are arguing about before and after the trib. Each side says they have enough scriptural evidence to support their rapture view . . even Light believes his views and Scriptures can support both pre and post aspects.

Therefore we're not coming to the same conclusion no matter how many times we post anything we share at the forum.

I believe the same gathering is being mentioned over a number of times. A few different wording differences to show a number of angles. .Here's what I see in the post trib aspect..

Matt. 13 the wheat and the tares. This is the harvest at the end of the age. The angels are the harvesters. They gather both the wheat and the tares in the same harvest. . This happens on the same day. You'll see in the book of Daniel God sends Michael the angel to call the dust from the graves. Some to glory and others to shame. Michael's one of the angels in this harvest gathering to bring to God to be judged. .

This is also called the 1st resurrection. The 1st resurrection happens also on the day of harvest. The day of the Lord of his appearing in the clouds. .

The wheat Gods people will be gathered separately in the clouds above the earth the 1st heaven the sky. . They represent what John the Baptist said this wheat stored in the barn. And the tares represent what John said the chaff will be burned up. All this is the same topic. Even what John said. Even Matthew 13, 24 ,25, 1 & 2 Thess, 2 Cor., Jude and Revelation chapters concerning the harvest and or any time Jesus is mentioned being in the clouds. .

It's the same event mentioned over and over at a number of words and angles. It may look or appear different to us. But scripture agrees upon Scriptures. It can't be divided against itself.

Would God give a complete different testimony to Matthew? And completely different to Apostle Paul? That's not like God. Apostle Paul tells us we only have 1 gospel and one truth.

This shows the story isn't changing. God's teaching by repeating to us over and over like a father would. So then we would know for sure. . This is the day of the Lord, the gathering and to Christ in the clouds all believers at the end of the tribulation only. The day of the harvest, and the 1st resurrection . . But all these books, chapters, and names there's yet one major event that happens on one day alone . …

You've heard over the years the second coming of Jesus Christ. Second return. Stop there. . If you add pre trib rapture that makes it 2 ½ returns.. That would make the prophecy wrong. If Jesus does appear literally in our atmosphere that counts even scientifically a return. Examples like this. You see the sun outside. But did the sun land on the earth? No. Did the sun rise at all? No. But the earth was spinning to make it look like the sun did rise. . You say I was outside in the sun. Even though it's nearly 93 million miles away. But you saw it within the atmosphere. That's all that counts. . So if Jesus enters the atmosphere that counts as a return to what's called the earths atmosphere.

In Genesis 1: 6-8 God created this atmosphere around the earth. It would help us breathe and retain water clouds etc for the purpose of the earth. . The atmosphere is a part of our earths environment. . Jesus would have to go down all 6 layers till he gets to the clouds 10 or so miles in the air . . At that moment he's more than 95% to the earth . Much more than 1/2 way. That's an official return. .

So if Jesus came that far for a pre trib rapture that counts for return 2. If Jesus also returned after the trib that's 3.

That's why post trib is most biblical and even scientifically correct as well proven.

And to missmuffet. The church isn't mentioned from after Rev. 4-19. It's because there won't be a church legally allowing to teach God in the bible. The Antichrist won't allow Christians to assemble at local churches. During these chapters not to do with Epistle to the church as of earlier chapters to the 7 churches. These chapters are about Johns vision God had given him. . Instead there are saints on the earth scattered about. Many of them being persecuted.

And lastly in Matthew 24 those days were shortened for the sake of the elect. Could the elect be the unsaved people on earth? No. The elect is Gods people who were here during the trib. . They will see Jesus by the end of the tribulation period.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, truecrosstrueshield said:

I'll answer everyone at the same time since I did start this topic.

I actually became post trib by the bible alone. Because I was at another Christian forum the more I read in the bible the more post trib was making more sense. However I needed more help from those more experienced on the post view. I stuck to post only because a few verses I found myself makes more sense to me. But I like the answers better also in my post trib reading articles etc. honestly to me pre trib makes no sense any longer in this picture ..

To light. You're the only person I know that accepts both pre and post views simultaneously. Everyone else is either pre or post trib mostly and the fewer preturist and rare mid tribbers. Light your interpretation seems to be unique and different. But also private to the rest of us. We haven't heard someone believing in a church rapture and the end of trib gathering of the tribes both being true. It seems here pre trib is most popular by itself. But I understand. I've been told post trib currently is less popular. That doesn't intimidate me. When Jesus sent out disciples at first most people otherwise didn't believe the same as the 12 or 72. Stephen shown an example a new believer outnumbered who opposed his faith in Jesus. I pick one choice which is the post trib original teaching in our churches over the centuries. Even early writers over the centuries teaching Jesus only returns once after the tribulation. There will be no pre trib commentaries in 200AD, 700AD, 1400Ad and even 1776 AD either.

 

As I told you, I was post trib at one point until I understood that God was going to keep His promise to his Chosen. But that would not happen until the fulness of the Gentiles came in (pretrib rapture). Are you aware that the original plan was for His Chosen to be raptured first?

Hos 9:10

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of Israel as the first ripe in the fig tree at her first time. Hence there are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. Since Israel served other gods,  they would not be the first harvest. The Gentile would be the 1st harvest and that would occur before the 70th week of Daniel.

You are doing yourself a great disservice preaching against the pretrib rapture. I know it's due to ignorance, but that is no excuse. It's like Paul preaching against Jesus. He thought he was doing the right thing but in fact he was acting in ignorance. The fact that I see a great love in you for you brothers and sisters tells me that there is a chance that you will eventually see the truth even as Paul saw the truth. You'll notice that I post plenty of scripture and take scripture for EXACTLY what it says. When you do this you will see the truth. 

[R. Hartono]

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Sometimes I think those believers who support  the post tribulation think they will be sealed by God during the 7 year tribulation and will not be harmed but that is not what the Bible tells us. 

There will be no sealing of Holy Spirit in the GT except for the 144000 literal Hebrew, because the church era is replaced by the 2 Witnesses n 144000.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

You're going to have to do way, way, way better than that to even scratch the surface of doubt. Of course it's a personal flight, because Luke 21:36 is directed toward a person.

Luke 21

36 Watch YE therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Right, but it's not even remotely similar to harpazo. So this proof of escape from GT is no proof at all. Harpazo is the escape hatch of pretrib, not ekpheugo.

20 hours ago, The Light said:

These two verses are not talking about the same event. 1 Cor 15 is about what happens at the gathering from heaven and earth that is seen in Matthew 24. 1 Thes 4 is about what happens at the rapture of the Church. The gathering occurs at the last trump. The Rapture of the Church occurs at the trump of God.

I know you say this is  the case. Where is the link to prove this? In other words what is used to fill in the gap between 1 Cor 15 and Matt 24? What I see in 1 Cor 15:50-56 is more about the assurance of the resurrection and the instantaneous change from death to life that occurs at the moment of the happening. 

Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”h

55“Where, O Death, is your victory?

Where, O Death, is your sting?”i

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 

There is no timing here or a link to the gathering from any place. Other than the idea of raising some from sleep(death) there is no location mentioned. But in any case this isn't a gathering from heaven. Paul says, "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed" If some were in heaven why would they need to be changed? 

Since it would not be necessary to change those already in heaven, and Paul says, "...we will all be changed." at the time of the happening, then 1 Cor 15:50-56 isn't what you say it is.

In the second part of your response concerning the trumps...any proof these two trumps are not the same trump? The last trump occurs in 1 Cor 15 when the dead are raised and we are all changed(no gathering from heaven). The Trump of God occurs when

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Not only is this the case but the description from Matt 24, "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." is much closer to 1 Thess 4 than it is to 1 Cor 15.

1 Cor 15 mentions the last trump. Matt 24 says a 'loud trumpet call'. You tend to differentiate mentions of trumps based on the description of the trump. That would mean in your view that the last trump of 1 Cor 15 is not the same as a loud trumpet call from Matt 24. You do this with the last trump and the trump of God, as does every proponent of pretrib. 

Why now would the last trump and a loud trumpet call be the same trump in your view? It is the same, I agree with that.   But it's also the last trump and the 7th trump of Revelation. What justification is there to make a distinction between the last trump and the trump of God to the point where they are separated by time and space when it's obvious the last trump and a loud trump are one and the same?

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The world and the unbelievers goes through the 7 year tribulation and at the end we have the second coming and Jesus Christ comes to this earth to rule. Although many unbelievers will come to Christ during the 7 year tribulation. They will be the tribulation saints. 

How? When the 7 years of tribulation is wrath which pretrib escapes, and the primary reason for the pretrib rapture is the fact it's 7 years of wrath, and believers do not experience that wrath; how do believers come out of that wrath when we are told we are not appointed to wrath?

 

[Diaste]

According to the pretrib view no believer suffers wrath.

According to the pretrib view some believers suffer wrath. 

I'd like a justification for this.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, truecrosstrueshield said:

To light. You're the only person I know that accepts both pre and post views simultaneously. Everyone else is either pre or post trib mostly and the fewer preturist and rare mid tribbers.

It's just a way for him to reconcile the indisputable fact of post GT truth with dogmatic interpretation.

His main argument for pretrib is that post trib doesn't negate pretrib. It's a prove me wrong fallacy.