What is a Faith vs Works Mindset?

[Your closest friendnt]

On 9/9/2021 at 10:42 PM, BK1110 said:

 

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." -- John 15:1-6 

 

*** if we pay attention to the context Jesus Christ had gather the twelve around him and he was talking specifically to them to his disciples only. 

And to Paul he would have said the same thing because he also call him to be his disciple. 

In this passage Jesus is talking to his disciples who believe in him and always will believe in him.

So through out this passage their faith in him is never question. 

Jesus is trying to communicate to them something that they had not quite understand at that time.

They did not understand that when he will be ascended and be far away that they will not be alone without him and that he will always be with them and he will teach them new things and he will guide them and  command them to do to things and go on missions in the same way as when the Heavenly Father was with him and he was telling him what to do even though they could not see him. 

They did not see their future as that time as Jesus had seen it. That he will give them the grate commission and sent them in different parts of the world and he will always be with them. 

At that time they still thought their future will be as princes of Israel and Jesus as the king Ruler from the palace of Herod. The kings Palace. 

Jesus had plans for them to bring to him a great harvest of people. 

Just when he guide them to throw their nets on a specific place and they did and caught a lot of fish.

In the same way he was telling them that he will tell them where to go and what to say and do about the Gospel so a lot of people will believe as "great harvest".

He told them that they have to follow his command to go to the places he will asked them to go for the Gospel. 

We see that taking place when they did not go out on their own even thought they had given the great commission but after Jesus ascention they followed his command to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit.  

I am disappointed to see that you used those scriptures for your own propose to say that for the man in your example that Jesus Christ will do to him what he said that time to his disciples.

Jesus Christ has his own timing for everyone and not according to our own timing. 

His timing had not yet come to let go of the things that had control over him, his habits.

His timing had not yet come to find the strength to resist them. Or he was waiting for Jesus to do it for him.

He did not know that the fight is his and that Jesus equips and stands by our side. That we need to be Overcomers, that he has call us to be Overcomers.

We cannot say that he is in par with the missions that Jesus Christ plan for them.

That his life is predetermined by Jesus Christ like in the same level as his twelve. 

***Another thing is that Jesus never said that they will denied their faith in him and that they will die in the denial that he is the Christ.

I bring that to your attention that when Jesus said that he will cut them off if they go their own way and that they will find them selves in outer darkness.

Jesus Christ did not say that he will send them to Hell, as per your suggestion. 

Fist of all they were still alive in his example those who he cuts off and puts in the fire are still alive and not dead.  

Jesus Christ did not say that he is going to kill them first and then throw them in the fire which you have erroneously believed he meant Hell 

Jesus Christ did not say that they stoped believing and that they died as in unbeluevers 

No he never said that. 

What is the fire then that Jesus wanted to talked about, that consuming fire...

This is what the prophet said " that this will be done with a consuming fire".

This is the most wonderful thing to happen to anyone who wants to be in the service of Jesus Christ. 

That when they shy away from what Jesus Christ has commended them to do and they know it then Jesus will put them in the fire that fire which is called "the consuming fire" till the come to understand that they do not carry his commandment as he has ask them.

That's what happened to Jonah...

The Lord put him in that consuming till he had to go and complete his mission per the Lord's command. 

It's good to go through the consuming fire of the Lord it teaches to not do our will but to follow in his will as he has command us. 

Philip was obey and he went to the dessert having not an idea what will happen and or take place...and he follow up to go to the Samaritans...

Peter follow up on the commandment of the Holy Spirit to go to Cornelius family the Gentile against his own will and their traditions at that time. 

If not and he tried his way out but the Lord took hold of him...

The fire of the Holy Spirit burned in them and they followed. 

Something that they did not have before Jesus Christ in the Old testament the Holy Spirit of the Heavenly Father residing in their hearts.

It could not be because is given to those who are one with the Father in  Jesus Christ. 

That example is not supporting your statement that the man in your example will be sent to Hell because he wants to live his life as a believer as he wants.

And it is impossible to know the will of God for him. And if at that time Jesus was trying to teach him and the people around him who have Judge him something but not all will understand.  

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Your closest friendnt

[Riverwalker]

We are saved by Grace through Faith

We are saved TO works (not by them)

But you cannot separate faith from works....because works is the fruit of faith

a lot of people think James and Paul disagree but they don't

Paul (In Ephesians  2) says if you have Faith you will do works

James says that if you have no works , then you have no faith (it is dead)

Again we are not saved by any of our works, we are saved by the Work of Jesus Christ on the Cross But we are saved TO do good works

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Riverwalker

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 9/11/2021 at 12:18 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

if we pay attention to the context Jesus Christ had gather the twelve around him and he was talking specifically to them to his disciples only. 

John 14:21-24

"he that has my commands and keeps them,
he it is that loves me... and I will reveal myself to him"
"Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
"And He answered and said: if a[ny ^] man love me he will keep my words;
and my Father will love him and we will come unto him and make our abode with him"
["You go into all the world and teach all nations...
 teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you" Matthew 28:19-20]

"Every branch in me...." John 15:2

"And if some branches be broken off and thou, being a wild olive tree,
were grafted in among the branches, and with them partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree.
Boast not against the branches...
For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest He spare not you"
Romans 11:17-21

Edited September 22, 2021 by Desopixi Seilynam
hopefully more clear

[Billiards Ball]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:26 PM, Hopefully said:

I was just reading and a question  came to my mind. How can a person know they are operating off of a faith and not works mindset.

 I then thought we could take a sin we have repented and think about it. I came up with:

If you think about that repented sin and the memory of it brings a smile to your face and you’d actually like to do it again, but you have the willpower not to so you won’t go to hell this is a works mindset.

If you think about that repented sin and feel disgusted, ashamed, angry, or having thoughts like how could I ever do that this is a faith mindset.

 The topic of faith vs works gets confusing because faith causes works.

I gave my examples above, but what would you say to people to make sure they are operating off of a faith  and not works mindset in all areas of their lives? 

Ah, but there are times when faith does NOT produce works.

Someone who rests on the Sabbath and things are accomplished regardless . . . someone who has to decide between two alternatives and waits on Jesus for a prompting, etc.

Salvation is trust in the One who can make you morally perfect. Religion is the attempt to perfect oneself for Heaven.

[JohnD]

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Habakkuk 2:4 (AV)
4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Hebrews 11 (AV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God's mindset is about faith.

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 9:30–33 (AV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Works mindset caused the Jews (who refused to repent of works theology) to miss out on the righteousness that is through faith. Romans also states that the Jews who do believe (have faith) will attain salvation (righteousness). I believe it's chapter 11.  (The Olive tree and the branches)

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by JohnD

[Your closest friendnt]

23 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Ah, but there are times when faith does NOT produce works.

Someone who rests on the Sabbath and things are accomplished regardless . . . someone who has to decide between two alternatives and waits on Jesus for a prompting, etc.

Salvation is trust in the One who can make you morally perfect. Religion is the attempt to perfect oneself for Heaven.

There is a reason and a lot more than we think when people make this kind of statements. 

As "show me your faith with your works".

There is an example of Mary and Martha.

 In that specific situation Martha was preparing something for their guests.

She did what she should have done...and usually Mary was there to help her to accomplish the task.

Martha who should have been with her she was listening to the lesson.

In church a activities there people who prepare and clean the room of the meeting and they are preparing the food.

And some other people in the church pray and pray and pray that every thing is going to be fine.

James decided to challenge the group of those people within the congregation.

Keeping in mind that if we all pray and no one does anything to prepare the snacks for the after service. 

Noda, no snacks, no coffee, no clean washrooms, no clean steps from snow.

He said "Angels won't come and do the work ....we pray and do the work and this way we have the preparation done to receive the crowd and to clean afterwards. 

So those people needed to be saved from just praying or not praying and doing nothing and begin to contribute to manual labor. 

They believe, they are saved from Hell. 

Perhaps in his congregation there were too many "notables" who had many servants at home...

If they support with their generosity forgive them till Jesus Christ tell them "I want you, not just your money".

And if that happened, and if does not happened? 

Just leave them to Jesus, why play the part of Jesus, if Jesus Christ did not tell you. 

Faith alone in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins....

Your sins are under his blood.

You can never go to Hell.

They are times that we only can pray and there is nothing we can do..

Just pray and wait. 

 

[Adstar]

On 9/9/2021 at 8:26 AM, Hopefully said:

I was just reading and a question  came to my mind. How can a person know they are operating off of a faith and not works mindset.

 

 

If you have had a bad day and you have been sinning bad and you know it.. If you start to get afraid that you are going to lose your salvation because how unworthy you are then you can know you have a Works mindset.. 

 

But if you are regretting the bad day and feeling down and you talk to God thanking Him for redeeming a lowlife like me.. Then your mind is operating with a Faith mindset..

[Leonardo Von]

On 9/8/2021 at 7:26 PM, Hopefully said:

I gave my examples above, but what would you say to people to make sure they are operating off of a faith  and not works mindset in all areas of their lives? 

Well, faith implies on hearing Jesus' voice and abide by it.