Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD

[not an echo]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:05 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi not an echo,

Good to look at the details. 

After having did some reviewing, I felt it might be of a help if I could give an uninterrupted list of my 30 internal evidences (or path checkpoints) in one post.  As I was working this up, I also decided to use red for my NUMBERS, as this contrast makes the beginning and ending of each point more apparent.  This will be my biggest post ever.  Anxious to see if the program will let me make such a big post.  So, here goes...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 1---(Joel 1:1)  It's a hard proposition for me to swallow that Joel was shown what he was shown---when he was shown it---and that it did not connect hard with the children of Israel in his era---especially in consideration of the sin of God's chosen people.  To suggest that there was only ever a last day's Day of the LORD (DOTL) judgment in view is to me bizarre---especially with our nearly 3000 year perspective of retrospect.

NUMBER 2---(Joel 1:2-3)  It looks like to me that this is informing the "old men" and "the inhabitants of the land" that they haven't ever seen anything like they're gonna see.  According to the common last day's understandings, try this:  If you are pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, or post-trib in your rapture view, say to yourself what view you hold, or what you are closest to holding and what your concept of the DOTL is relative to your view.  Got it?  Now consider:  The Israelites of Joel's era are told to tell their children of the experience.  Let's suppose you are of the common pre-trib view, as I once was.  Well, Joel's instruction concerning the experience of the DOTL would not be for you, but for those left behind, right?  So, they will begin to experience the DOTL, and some will even make it until Christ's Second Coming---seven years later.  Hmmm.  It's understandable that the reason for them to tell their children of it would be because they had not yet been born, or, they were too young to remember.  But further, the prophecy says, "let your children TELL THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN ANOTHER GENERATION."  We're talking about grand children and great grandchildren.  Seems to me that this would involve some time.  For the one holding to the common pre-trib view, Christ's Second Coming will happen some seven years later.  Seems to me that this would render the admonition empty, or meaningless---unless it was meant for the Israelites of Joel's era.  In that case, the admonition would be full, if you will.  For those holding to the other views, well, the time constraint closes in even further.

NUMBER 3---(Joel 1:4-5)  What of this was not fulfilled in the Assyrian and/or Babylonian invasions?  Just before the Israelites entered the land of promise, they were told of the blessings they would receive for obeying God and the curses that would come upon them if they disobeyed (Deut. 28, esp. vss. 2 & 15/it's good to read the whole chp.).  When Daniel was in exile, he confessed his and his people's sins and acknowledged before God that what had happened to them was the result of the curses "written in the law of Moses" (Dan. 9:11-13).  Note these verses from Deuteronomy 28 (part of what is considered the law of Moses):

 38  Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in;  for the locust shall consume it.

 42  ALL thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

 49  The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth;  a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

 50  A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favor to the young:

 51  And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, UNTIL THOU BE DESTROYED:  which also shall NOT LEAVE THEE either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, UNTIL HE HAVE DESTROYED THEE.

And, just how bad would it be?

 53  And thou shalt eat THE FRUIT OF THINE OWN BODY, THE FLESH OF THY SONS AND OF THY DAUGHTERS, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

I think of the message Rabshakeh sent to Hezekiah, recorded in II Kings 19.  Note this from there,

 11  Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, BY DESTROYING THEM UTTERLY:  and shalt thou be delivered?

A little further in the account, Hezekiah acknowledged before God that it was so...

 17  OF A TRUTH, LORD, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands.

Well, Hezekiah prayed for God to save them (vs. 19), and He did (vs. 35!).  But, that was Judah and the southern kingdom.  Samaria and the northern kingdom didn't get deliverance.  And later, neither did the southern kingdom.  Note what is fixing to be the case for them a little later, in II Kings 21...

 12  Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, BOTH HIS EARS SHALL TINGLE.

 13  And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab:  AND I WILL WIPE JERUSALEM AS A MAN WIPETH A DISH, WIPING IT, AND TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN.

I could go on and on, but I'm hoping maybe that that won't be necessary, at least concerning Joel 1:4-5.

NUMBER 4---(Joel 1:6)  The prophecy reads, "For A nation is come up upon My land..."  This does not dovetail well with a "Russian Federation" or "Meshech and Tubal" and "Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them" and "Gomer, and all his bands;  the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands;  and many people with thee" (Ezek. 38:3-6).  Seems to me that a "Russian Federation" would be plural by definition.

Earlier, with NUMBER 3, I pointed out that when Daniel was in exile, he confessed his and his people's sins and acknowledged before God that what had happened to them was the result of the curses "written in the law of Moses" (Dan. 9:11-13).  Notice what is said in Deuteronomy 28:

 49  The LORD shall bring A nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth;  A nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

 50  A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Then, in Jeremiah 5 notice,

 15  Lo, I will bring A nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD:  it is A mighty nation, it is An ancient nation, A nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

And from Jeremiah 6:

 22  Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and A great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.

 23  They shall lay hold on bow and spear;  they are cruel, and have no mercy;  their voice roareth like the sea;  and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

I am not aware of anything else in Jeremiah concerning A nation such as this responsible for what is spoken of concerning Israel and Judah other than Assyria or Babylon.  Rather, it is stated explicitly that the nation being spoken of is Assyria, then Babylon.  I know that I often speak of Assyria and Babylon, but, when the DOTL began with the Israelites, it was the nation of Assyria first---against the northern kingdom---then Babylon---against the southern kingdom.  Like with the main brunt of A hurricane, there is destruction, then the eye, then the rest of the hurricane.  I wonder what people used to think before it came to be realized that a hurricane is one big storm.  Can you imagine people thinking the storm was over, and then, a couple of hours later thinking a second one had come---when in reality, it was the same storm?  Also, we are used to hurricanes being named.  I think we could appropriately name the "hurricane" that came through Israel and Judah in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. as this:  "The Day of the LORD."  Note afresh from Jeremiah 50:

 17  Israel is a scattered sheep;  the lions have driven him away:  first the king of Assyria hath devoured him;  and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

NUMBER 5---(Joel 1:7-14)  On the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that this did not occur?  Besides what I have already brought out in the course of this thread, it is enough for me that the term "desolate" is used concerning the state of Israel after what went down.  This is a very telling term that Joel used in both 1:17-18 and 2:3.  The term is used throughout Jeremiah (and elsewhere) as a cursory glance into a concordance will show.  And, all I am getting at here is that by the evidence of Scripture, what Joel here prophesied did indeed happen.  I think of what Jeremiah said that the cry was at that time:  "DESTRUCTION UPON DESTRUCTION is cried;  for the whole land is spoiled..." (4:20).  I think it is kind of interesting how that what happened is expressed in Isaiah 7...

 20  In the same day shall the Lord SHAVE WITH A RAZOR THAT IS HIRED, namely them beyond the river, BY THE KING OF ASSYRIA, THE HEAD, AND THE HAIR OF THE FEET:  AND IT SHALL ALSO CONSUME THE BEARD.

I submit that when God got through shaving Israel and Judah, He got every whisker---and more.  Again, I ask, on the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that what Joel prophesied in 1:7-14 did not occur?  Now, I am not finished.  I aim to make stops at every place on the path that a stop is needful.  And, I've got at least 25 more stops to make.

NUMBER 6---(Joel 1:15)  Hey, on this one, I'm gonna hold myself to that thing of trying to state my evidences concisely!   The first half of the verse reads, "Alas for the day!  for the Day of the LORD is AT HAND."  For me, I just can't get 2800 plus years to harmonize with "at hand."

Right now, one thing I can get to harmonize with AT HAND is my bedtime!  I'm gonna be hittin' the sack in just a bit...

NUMBER 7---(Joel 1:15)  The Day of the LORD that came on the Israelites during the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. was on account of God's use of the Assyrians and Babylonians as chastening rods upon them.  Joel said, "and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."  I'm not sure how you square this with a "Russian Federation" that will be headed up by Satan and his beast and false prophet during the last days DOTL.  According to my understanding of what you have put forth Marilyn, your take on things would in effect attribute to God something that Satan is doing, as far as the Gentile nations are concerned.

NUMBER 8---(Joel 1:16-20)  While I have put forth much Scripture that speaks to what here happens as having already happened, I don't believe any of the Scripture I have yet put forth speaks specifically to "the rivers of waters are dried up" (vs. 20).  When I think of "rivers of waters" being dried up, I think, "Wow!"  Here in Western Kentucky, I live fairly close to four rivers (the Cumberland, Tennessee, Ohio, and Mississippi), and they are all huge!  I used to live between the Cumberland and Tennessee.  One was about a mile east of me, the other, about a mile west of me.  The same with Kentucky Dam and Barkley Dam.  These two dams mark the end of the rivers and the beginning of two lakes.  They are so close, that a national park named Land Between the Lakes was established, and a big part of this park is in the county where I presently live.  I've fished out of both the lakes and the rivers.  Just had to reminisce a little.

Annnyway, before I get too much into this, I believe the Hebrew here for "rivers" holds something of importance for us.  Consider from Strong's...

Strong's Concordance H650

Original Word: אָפִיק

Transliteration: ʼâphîyq

Phonetic Spelling: aw-feek'

from H622; properly, containing, i.e. a tube; also a bed or valley of a stream; also a strong thing or a hero; brook, channel, mighty, river, scale, stream, strong piece.

For me, it's not hard by this to see that anything that would be like a containment for water is in view, and, among other things, it is variously translated as "brook" and "channel" and "stream" and, of course, "river."  And, what do we find in Scripture concerning such?  Consider, from Isaiah 37:

 25  I have digged, and drunk water;  and with the sole of my feet have I DRIED UP ALL THE RIVERS OF THE BESIEGED PLACES.

This was boasted by Sennacherib, king of Assyria (vss. 21-25).  In Ezekiel, there is reference to such concerning Egypt also, in the days of Nebuchadrezzar.  Consider from chapter 30:

 12  And I will MAKE THE RIVERS DRY, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked:  and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, BY THE HAND OF STRANGERS:  I the LORD have spoken it.

And, there was also drought and dearth.  I know around my neck of the woods, we sometimes see this in measure.  When there's a lot of rain, of course, the brooks and streams will overflow.  But, the rivers and lakes will too.  And, conversely, when there is a scarcity of rain, levels get low.  The lakes and rivers will get so low that lots of ground is seen, which is not seen otherwise, even out in the middle areas.  And, of course, many brooks and streams will go completely dry, as anywhere.  I think of what it reads in Jeremiah 14:

  1   The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth.

  2   Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish;  they are black unto the ground;  and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up.

  3   And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters:  they came to the pits, AND FOUND NO WATER;  THEY RETURNED WITH THEIR VESSELS EMPTY;  they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads.

  4   BECAUSE THE GROUND IS CHAPT, FOR THERE WAS NO RAIN IN THE EARTH, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads.

NUMBER 9---(Joel 2:1)  Here we have similar to what Joel said in 1:15, and again, the sentence structure bears out what I have put forth earlier, but this time, the translators render H7138 as "nigh at hand."  I can see how, when something is repeated again within six verses, translators determine that some emphasis is in order.  Looks like to me, on this, most translators concur.

NUMBER 10---(Joel 2:2)  The first half of the verse reads, "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains..."

In my opening post of this thread, I spoke just a little to the "darkness" of that day, making a tie in with what we find in the law of Moses.  Once again, Daniel, in his prayer to God for him and his people, explicitly acknowledges that "As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us" (Dan. 9:11-13).  The curses there written read in part, "And thou shalt GROPE AT NOONDAY, AS THE BLIND GROPETH IN DARKNESS..." (Deut. 28:29).  I would like to encourage you (and all) to read all of Deuteronomy 28, with our discussion/study in mind.  What ended up befalling the Israelites was certainly a dark day, with dark days.  In Isaiah 8, on account of the advance of the Assyrians (vs. 7), it says of the Israelites,

 22  And they shall look unto the earth;  and behold trouble AND DARKNESS, dimness of anguish;  and they shall be driven TO DARKNESS.

A little further, in chapter 9, it reads,

 19  Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land DARKENED, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire:  no man shall spare his brother.

In Jeremiah 13, God instructed His prophet to give them this warning:

 15  Hear ye, and give ear;  be not proud:  for the LORD hath spoken.

 16  Give glory to the LORD your God, before He cause DARKNESS, and before your feet stumble upon THE DARK MOUNTAINS, and, while ye look for light, He turn it into the shadow of death, and make it GROSS DARKNESS.

Of the same time, Zephaniah, in chapter 1 warned,

 15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of DARKNESS AND GLOOMINESS, a day of clouds and THICK DARKNESS.

As with the Day of the LORD judgment that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., the future DOTL judgment, which I believe is now looming, will be a dark day with dark days as well.

NUMBER 11---(Joel 2:2)  The last half of the verse reads, "...a great people and a strong;  there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

This verse certainly indicates that the "nation" (1:6) coming against them is "a great people and a strong."  And, while it certainly indicates that there has never been one stronger, it's going to be "many generations" before another comes that is as strong.  And, so it has been and will be.  Of course, the strongest army that will ever be will not be earthly, but will be that one that returns with Christ at His Second Coming!

NUMBER 12---(Joel 2:3-9)  Besides what I have shown so far that speaks to the desolation and terror that God's chastening rods (the Assyrians and the Babylonians) did indeed effect upon the Israelites, I would make the following comments:

First of all, I can see the description, "The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses" (2:4) alluding to the "locusts" (1:4) spoken of earlier, which I take as the "nation" (1:6).  When the Jews looked on from higher elevations, especially at the advance of the Babylonians, I can easily imagine that they looked like a swarm of locusts, only with the appearance of horses---because that is what they were.  What is said in verses 7-9 certainly bespeaks the efficiency and might of their military.

Interestingly, Joel's prophecy says "they shall CLIMB THE WALL like men of war" (vs. 7) and "they shall RUN UPON THE WALL" (vs. 9).  Of course, we know that 6th century B.C. Jerusalem had a wall---before the Babylonians destroyed it.  Recall from II Kings 25:

 10  And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, BRAKE DOWN THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM ROUND ABOUT.

In Jeremiah 39, it reads thus...

  8   And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, AND BRAKE DOWN THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM.

Equally interesting is this Marilyn:  The only thing that I find in Ezekiel 38-39 concerning walls is from chapter 38, concerning what you call the "Russian Federation" and what they will do:

  9   Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

 10  Thus saith the Lord GOD;  It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

 11  And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of UNWALLED villages;  I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling WITHOUT WALLS, and having NEITHER BARS NOR GATES,

 12  To take a spoil, and to take a prey;  to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

NUMBER 13---(Joel 2:10)  The verse reads,

¹⁰ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Of the earth quaking before the LORD's army, consider this example of how the like occurred in connection with a much smaller army, back in the days of Jonathan and David.  From I Samuel 14:

¹⁵ And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.

If this happened when the Philistines fled before Jonathan and his armourbearer, the "quake" of Joel's prophecy is a non-obstacle, whatever the case or cause.  God can effect such anyway He would like, and has.  The same with what is prophesied in the rest of Joel 2:10.  Consider from Amos 5, which context supports an 8th century fulfillment...

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

¹⁹ As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

²⁰ Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Also, this from Amos 8, which likewise supports an 8th century fulfillment...

⁹ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: 

As far as a 6th century context, note from Ezekiel 32:

⁷ And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

While this is spoken concerning Egypt, the DOTL judgment in that day came upon them as well, as it did the other countries surrounding Israel.

NUMBER 14---(Joel 2:11)  The army causing all the desolation that Joel prophesies of up to this point is referred to as "My army" (meaning God's army).  How could the army under the beast's command be considered God's army?  Now Marilyn, it seems like you are seeing something a little differently on this, but what you have so far put forth is very vague, at least to me.  The only last day's army that I am seeing in Scripture that can be referred to as God's army is the one that will return with Christ at His Second Coming.

NUMBER 15---(Joel 2:12-14)  Considering how we see things taking place in The Revelation, how can what is happening at the hand of Satan and his imps be construed to be something that God would "repent" of---whatever the Israelites might do?  There's no context relating to the last day's DOTL where such a construction can be put on things, IMHO.  What has been prophesied of concerning the last day's is going to happen as prophesied, because the Israelites have done as they have done---as has humanity.

NUMBER 16---(Joel 2:15-17)  These verses record a continuation of God's call of the Israelites to repentance that we see in verses 12-14, but with the added instruction to call a gathering and what to request.  How can the specifics of this part of Joel's prophecy be made to fit the specifics of any other prophecy to be found concerning the Israelites of the last days?  During the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, whereas the Israelites might be encouraged to do something temple related, this would come at the bidding of the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3), not the Lord.  To the contrary, the only related instruction of the Lord to the Israelites at this time is, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." (Matt. 24:16ff).

NUMBER 17---(Joel 2:18-19ff)  As I have already pointed out, the opening word "Then" of 2:18 is key, as it points backward to the condition that must be met before what is promised afterward can be expected to come to pass.  Several pages ago, when I spoke to this, I referenced what is arguably the most familiar "then" condition found in Scripture.  Consider afresh from II Chronicles 7...

¹⁴ If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

But, the passage goes further.  Consider what the LORD promised more specifically to Solomon...

¹⁷ And as for thee (Solomon), if thou wilt walk before Me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe My statutes and My judgments;

¹⁸ THEN will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

It was certainly God's desire to bless, both the Israelites and Solomon.  But, what if they did not meet the "then" condition?  What THEN?  Consider the very next verses...

¹⁹ But if ye turn away, and forsake My statutes and My commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

²⁰ THEN will I pluck them up by the roots out of My land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for My name, will I cast out of My sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

²¹ And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

²² And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath He brought all this evil upon them.

So, we see that things could have gone either way.  Same with what we find prophesied in Joel 2:12-27.  Sadly, the way it went is what history records.  But, I'm reminded of Paul's words, "I say then, Hath God cast away His people?  God forbid..." (Rom. 11:1ff).

Just a little side note.  As an individual, I fell into the depths of sin as a child of God, and just like with the Israelites, God chastened me sore.  But also, as with them, He left a remnant of me.  That's what I was when I reached my bottom---a remnant.  And it was then that God got my attention with the Divine hope that there was more to life than what I was (and had been) experiencing.  The inspiration that I received from God that day was to give Him the same chance that I had given the world.  Well, I guess I met His "then" condition for me (which I've certainly endeavored to do), because He turned everything around in my life and has not ceased to bless me for over 38 years now.  I gladly and thankfully give God the glory for all I am or ever hope to be, because it has been Him, not me.  I did my own thing for several years, and though the catastrophe that my life became did not compute to me, I was at a total loss for the why and what to do about it.  I guess it would be remiss of me not to here give a link to my testimony (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).

NUMBER 18---(Joel 2:20)  How does what is prophesied here fit with anything we see happening in The Revelation?  The Battle of Armageddon doesn't go like this, nor does any other last day's battle or development that I am finding in Scripture.

NUMBER 19---(Joel 2:20)  My previous evidence came from this same verse, but there is also another evidence here that I would like for us to look at.

You believe that "the northern army" is what you refer to as "the Russian Federation" and you appeal to Ezekiel 38-39 to support this.  Further, if I have understood you correctly, you believe that everything in Joel's prophecy is yet future and that this Russian Federation is going to come against Israel before the tribulation period.  Now, I believe we are both in agreement that, whoever "the northern army" is, it is the army responsible for the destruction spoken of prior to Joel 2:20.  And, at this point, the LORD, through the prophet Joel, is letting the Israelites know the following:  "But I will remove far off from you the northern army..."

One big difference in what we here believe is that you don't see the Israelites repenting prior to this.  You have made the statement, "Israel will turn to the Lord after the Russian Federation is dealt with by God" (underline mine).  You have said, "They turn to God because God saves them from destruction at the hands of the mighty Federation from the north" (underline mine).  On the other hand, I have pointed out God's call for them to repent in Joel 2:12-17, which, if they had done, they would have met the "Then" condition of verse 18.  This would have resulted in God doing for them as spoken in verses 18-27, which He did not do, because they did not repent.  I have already spoke to this at length, but am only mentioning it here as it is so relevant.

This brings us to this:  Who is "the northern army"?  You have continued to put forth that it is the "far northern army" and that this can only be a reference to your Russian Federation.  But, you don't have language to support the explicitness of your position.  The word "northern" is this, from the Worthy Forum Strong's:

Strong's Concordance H6830

Original Word: צְפוֹנִי

Transliteration: tsᵉphôwnîy

Phonetic Spelling: tsef-o-nee'

from H6828; northern; northern.

The word used in Joel literally means "northern."  Note also that it is "from H6828" which is this:

Strong's Concordance H6828

Original Word: צָפוֹן

Transliteration: tsâphôwn

Phonetic Spelling: tsaw-fone'

or צָפֹן; from H6845; properly, hidden, i.e. dark; used only of the north as a quarter (gloomy and unknown); north(-ern, side, -ward, wind).

Interestingly, this is the Hebrew word used for over 125 occurrences of the word "north" in the Old Testament.  I would like to encourage you (and all) to look at all the uses of this word that have nothing to do with a country in the north or coming from the north.  Suffice it for what I would like to show here that the following references do point explicitly to Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon:

From Jeremiah 25:

⁸ Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard My words,

⁹ Behold, I will send and take all the families OF THE NORTH, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

While some references concerning God's chastening rod from the north in the days of the prophets are not quite as easy to see, it's not difficult by the context of Jeremiah's prophecies to see that it is Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon that is coming from the north upon others as well, like the Philistines (47:1-7, esp. vs.2).  In Jeremiah 46, we find similarly concerning Nebuchadrezzar's coming upon Egypt.  Note verses 2, 13, and 26 concerning Nebuchadrezzar, and then these two verses:

²⁰ Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh OUT OF THE NORTH.

²⁴ The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people OF THE NORTH.

Ezekiel's prophecy supports the same, as can be seen in chapter 26:

⁷ For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, FROM THE NORTH, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

And, there's more.  My question at this point is this:  In light of the above, and everything else that I have brought out in this thread up until now, by what criteria do you determine that it is your Russian Federation that is being spoken of in Joel 2:20?

NUMBER 20---(Joel 2:21-27)  While this section actually includes verses 18-20 as well, I have already focused upon these.  However, in the verse section of our focus now, I would like to first reinforce that the prosperity here spoken of is what God really desired for His people and what their experience would have been had they repented.  Because they did not repent, God did not remove "the northern army" but instead punished them until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths.  Consider from II Chronicles 36:

¹⁵ And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers (which would have included Joel), rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on His dwelling place:

¹⁶ BUT they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until THE WRATH OF THE LORD arose against His people, TILL THERE WAS NO REMEDY.

¹⁷ THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand.

¹⁸ And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

¹⁹ And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

²⁰ And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

²¹ To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, UNTIL THE LAND HAD ENJOYED HER SABBATHS: for as long as she LAY DESOLATE she kept sabbath, to fulfil THREESCORE AND TEN YEARS.

I have pointed this out partly to draw attention to Joel 2:25, where God lets them know that He would gladly restore to them what He had destroyed by what He calls, "My great army which I sent among you."  Joel's prophecy opens with words concerning this same destruction, and we find that God's "great army" is referred to as "a nation" (1:6), as "a great people and a strong" (2:2), and as "His army" (2:11), which is also one and the same as "the northern army" (2:20).

Now Marilyn, if I am understanding you correctly, you don't believe there is a distinction to be made between any of the references to the Day of the LORD spoken of in Joel.  And, if I am understanding you correctly, you are believing that there is going to be a major battle before the DOTL---involving "the northern army"---and then a major battle at the time of the DOTL---involving those gathered for the Battle of Armageddon.  There are five mentions of the DOTL spoken of in Joel, and some very specific words applying to each one mentioned.  How do you consistently reconcile your view with these five mentions?

Also, for those who see "the northern army" (and the other references thereto) differently, I would have the same question.

NUMBER 21---(Joel 2:28)  I would just ask this question of this reference:  After what?  Hopefully my position on this has been made very clear.  In a nutshell, Peter clarifies this for us in his quote of this portion of Joel's prophecy in Acts 2:16-21, especially verse 17, which reads, "And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS..."

NUMBER 22---(Joel 2:28)  My previous evidence also stemmed from this reference.  In case my position concerning my evidence NUMBER 21 is not yet clear to you, the answer to my "After what?" question is, "After everything Joel has prophesied of prior to this."  As I believe I have thoroughly shown, Scripture, according to scriptural concepts, solidly supports this.  The Day of the LORD judgments Joel prophesied of in 1:15 and 2:1 were "at hand" and "nigh at hand" in Joel's day---looming on Israel's horizon.  Joel's next use of the phrase "the Day of the LORD" concerns how "great and very terrible" it was going to be, after which he asks, "who can abide it?" (2:11), whereupon we see the LORD's gracious call for them to repent---beginning with the very next word:  "Therefore..." (2:12-17).  Because the Israelites did not repent, the LORD did not bring to pass the "Then..." (2:18) of what He would have liked to have done for them (2:18-27), but rather, wore them out with His chastening rod(s) and grounded them (so to speak) for 70 years (Jer. 25:8-11).

This brings me to what my evidence NUMBER 22 is.  Joel 2:28 represents the lead-in for the section of Joel's prophecy that Peter quotes on the Day of Pentecost concerning the Day of the LORD judgment that is going to happen "in the last days" (Acts 2:17)---according to Peter's clarification.  Note the first seven words as Joel had prophesied:  "And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD..." (Joel 2:28/Acts 2:17).  The combination of Joel's words and Peter's clarification for those gathered on the Day of Pentecost denotes a time far removed from the "is at hand" (1:15) and the "is nigh at hand" (2:1) that Joel had prophesied of prior to the "And it shall come to pass afterward" lead-in.

NUMBER 23---(Joel 2:28)  Something even further concerning this lead-in to what was to "come to pass afterward" is this:  If what Joel is now about to prophesy actually follows the spoken blessing (2:18-27) by just a few days, weeks, or months, this means---according to your position Marilyn---that God will be removing the northern army and then blessing the Israelites and then allowing them to be subjected to a time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, you are believing that your Russian Federation is going to be attacking Israel (very soon now, like early 2022), then God is going to remove it (very soon thereafter), then God is going to bless Israel to the tune of Joel 2:18-27 (very soon thereafter as well), then the tribulation is going to begin---right?   My thought at this moment is that I am not even in the proximity of being able to get the prophetic puzzle pieces to fit together as you say they do.

NUMBER 24---(Joel 2:28-32)  I can't help but to express that for me, this is one of the most scenic places on our path.  We looked in this direction several pages back (before we started down our present path), but I believe it would do us much good to look at it again now, just to make sure something wasn't missed.

Recall that on the Day of Pentecost, Peter appealed to this part of Joel's prophecy.  To those who were gathered that day, scratching their heads about it all, Peter said, "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16).  And, what was that?  Following is the first part of that prophecy, which relates to what was then happening.  Continuing in Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel thus...

¹⁷ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

¹⁸ And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

According to Peter, what happened on the Day of Pentecost marked the beginning of the fulfilling of Joel's prophecy, and this first part pertained to God's pouring out of His Spirit upon the Church.  From our perspective now, we can see that this event marked the beginning, or inauguration, of the era of the New Testament Church, popularly referred to as the Church Age.  For believers, it should not be too surprising that any prophecy be fulfilled.  What is sometimes surprising, however, is to find unanticipated elements in a prophecy.  Just such an element exists here.  Looking back, as it turns out, Joel's prophecy gives defining marks OF THE VERY DAY of the BEGINNING of the era of the Church.  But, equally as remarkable as this, it also gives defining marks OF THE VERY DAY of the CLOSING of this era.  This outstanding element of Joel's prophecy can be seen when its relationship to the 6th Seal is understood.  Now, follow closely.

That the era of the New Testament Church began on the Day of Pentecost is readily apparent.  When will it end?  It will end with the rapture of the Church, just before the Day of the Lord judgment begins.  With these things in mind, notice the last part of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted and something else that will occur just before the Day of the Lord begins.  Again, from Acts 2:

 20  The SUN shall be turned into DARKNESS, and the MOON into BLOOD,

before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

This exact phenomena concerning the sun and the moon is spoken of in The Revelation.  Before we look afresh at the specific place, imagine that The Revelation is a treasure trove of mysteries (which it is!), each with its own padlock.  If the above words of Joel's prophecy represented notches on a key, the key with these notches would fit the lock of the mystery of the 6th Seal.  Consider the similarity between the above verse of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted and the opening and closing verses of the account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12 and 17):

VERSE 12

And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

and the SUN became BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became as BLOOD;

VERSE 17

For the great Day of His Wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand

As can be seen, the first half of Acts 2:20 fits verse 12, and the last half fits verse 17.  This is the only place in The Revelation where this key from Joel's prophecy will fit.  I can almost hear the click .  Scripture consistently supports that the era of the Church will close on this day that "the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood."  Of course, since the close of the era of the Church is brought about by the rapture, this happens the same day as well.  Moreover, this all takes place just before the Day of the Lord judgment begins---TO THE DAY.  Summed up, Joel's prophecy marks both the opening and closing days of the era of the Church (like bookends), giving us a very important key to unlocking the mystery of the 6th Seal and the timing of the rapture.  All of this reminds me of the way puzzle pieces that are truly meant to fit together also interlock with other pieces.  Said another way, this reminds me of the way a puzzle is supposed to go together.

NUMBER 25---(Joel 2:28-32)  Looking once again at the same section of Joel that we focused on in NUMBER 24, but from a different vantage point on our path, it is very telling that Peter only ever draws attention to this part of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-21).  I doubt that anyone would suppose that he was not at this time also aware of the rest of Joel's prophecy---especially all that was prior to what he here quoted.  I submit that many others present on the Day of Pentecost were familiar with this as well.  What am I getting at?  If everything Joel prophesied concerned only one Day of the LORD judgment---as you and so many others are believing---where's the concern of the assembled Jews over everything else that Joel had prophesied prior to what Peter quoted?  Why would there not have been a sense of dire urgency stirred over all of that, especially with them having just crucified their Messiah?

NUMBER 26---(Joel 3:1-8)  Akin to my NUMBER 23 reasoning, if "the northern army" (2:20) is your Russian Federation and God removes them before the tribulation starts and then blesses the Israelites to the tune of 2:21-27, how can what is spoken in 3:1-8 concerning what "the nations" will have done to the Israelites take place---after "the tribulation"?  Now, in response to my NUMBER 23, you ended up indicating that you believe 2:21-27 concerns the Millennium ("v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel's restoration. (Millennium)").  Further, you indicated that you believe Joel 2:18 concerns the future---you just don't indicate when in the future ("Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)").  I've said this to point out that in your post, you don't indicate anything concerning the words of Joel 2:19, which are lead-in words of blessing towards the Israelites, undeniably connected to what he prophesies concerning "the northern army" in 2:20.  Why in the world am I busying myself trying to sort through all of this?   Because, when I begin to look closer at the way you try to fit the prophetic puzzle pieces, I see a jumble rather than true fits.  What you do with your take on 2:21-27 doesn't solve the fit problem that 2:19 poses for your position.

Here's a copy & paste of your post I am referring to.  Again, note your absence of anything relating to Joel 2:19.  An oversight?

"Hi NAE,

Joel 2: 1 - 17 The beginning of the Day of the Lord, time period.

Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)

Joel 2: 20 God removes the Northern army.

v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel`s restoration. (Millennium)

v. 28 & 29 God reveals that He will give them His Holy Spirit. (millennium)

v. 30 - 32 God gives some detail on the specific Day of the Lord. 

ch. 3 God gives more detail of the specific Day of the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel and judge the nations."

NUMBER 27---(Joel 3:9-16)  Not forgetting everything else I have brought out in this thread up until now, for those who hold that every mention of the DOTL in Joel is of the same DOTL judgment, note that everything connected with the first three mentions of the DOTL (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11) is a warning of judgment against the children of Israel, but, everything connected with the last two mentions of the DOTL (2:31 and 3:14) is words of blessing for Israel and of judgment against the heathen.  Whatever one's position, this is something that must be considered and reconciled---consistently.

NUMBER 28---(Joel 3:17-21)  What Joel here prophesies concerns what God will do for the Israelites and the land of Israel in the latter time of the last days---in the time of Christ's Millennial Reign (e.g., "And it shall come to pass in that day"/vs. 18).  God's desire would have been to bless them in this way back in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., but they would not repent of their wicked ways and turn to Him, as He instructed them to do in Joel 2:12-17.  If they had, they would have met the "Then" condition of 2:18 and God would have at that time did for them what is written in 2:18-27.  However, what they did---which resulted in what God did---was this, as recorded in II Chronicles 36:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

NUMBER 29---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  At this stop, I would like to point out that there is no mention or hint of the Antichrist in the book of Joel.  Moreover, the Antichrist has nothing to do with---nor is he involved in anything having to do with---the first three Day of the LORD judgments prophesied of in Joel (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11).  The "nation" of 1:6, the "great people and a strong" of 2:2, "His (God's) army" of 2:11, "the northern army" of 2:20, and the army God calls "My great army" of 2:25 were being directed and used by God for the purpose of chastening the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  The nations of the last days will be directed and used by the Antichrist against the Israelites and later Christ and His army, in the showdown of the Battle of Armageddon.  Consider what John writes in Revelation 19...

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

We know that Christ would not be coming against Himself, or what God would refer to as "My great army" at the Battle of Armageddon.  As Jesus said in Mark 3...

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

NUMBER 30---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  Finally, whatever of Joel may be believed to fit The Revelation, it must fit, and not be in contradiction.  For example, in Joel 1 it reads (concerning the locusts),

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

But, in Revelation 9 it reads thus (concerning the locusts),

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they SHOULD NOT hurt the grass of the earth, neither ANY green thing, neither ANY tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Another example would be this from Joel 2:2 concerning the army there being spoken of: "there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."  As the KJV reads, this wording allows for another of "the like" but not until after "the years of many generations."  If the "Russian Federation" is the army being spoken of and it comes against Israel just before the tribulation, there is not "many" generations between this time and the Battle of Armageddon, but only one.  Conversely, if this portion of Joel's prophecy indicates that there shall never be the like ever again (as some other translations suggest), there's still one more.  After Christ's Millennial Reign there is the Gog/Magog uprising, when Satan will "gather them together to battle:  the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8).  I submit that the only interpretation free of these conflicts is that the army being spoken of in Joel 2:2 was Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon.

Well, there's the 30 checkpoints where we stopped along our path, all listed without interruption.  Hope this makes this thread concerning Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD a more helpful study.

[JoeCanada]

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

After having did some reviewing, I felt it might be of a help if I could give an uninterrupted list of my 30 internal evidences (or path checkpoints) in one post.  As I was working this up, I also decided to use red for my NUMBERS, as this contrast makes the beginning and ending of each point more apparent.  This will be my biggest post ever.  Anxious to see if the program will let me make such a big post.  So, here goes...

INTERNAL EVIDENCES

NUMBER 1---(Joel 1:1)  It's a hard proposition for me to swallow that Joel was shown what he was shown---when he was shown it---and that it did not connect hard with the children of Israel in his era---especially in consideration of the sin of God's chosen people.  To suggest that there was only ever a last day's Day of the LORD (DOTL) judgment in view is to me bizarre---especially with our nearly 3000 year perspective of retrospect.

NUMBER 2---(Joel 1:2-3)  It looks like to me that this is informing the "old men" and "the inhabitants of the land" that they haven't ever seen anything like they're gonna see.  According to the common last day's understandings, try this:  If you are pre-trib, pre-wrath, mid-trib, or post-trib in your rapture view, say to yourself what view you hold, or what you are closest to holding and what your concept of the DOTL is relative to your view.  Got it?  Now consider:  The Israelites of Joel's era are told to tell their children of the experience.  Let's suppose you are of the common pre-trib view, as I once was.  Well, Joel's instruction concerning the experience of the DOTL would not be for you, but for those left behind, right?  So, they will begin to experience the DOTL, and some will even make it until Christ's Second Coming---seven years later.  Hmmm.  It's understandable that the reason for them to tell their children of it would be because they had not yet been born, or, they were too young to remember.  But further, the prophecy says, "let your children TELL THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN ANOTHER GENERATION."  We're talking about grand children and great grandchildren.  Seems to me that this would involve some time.  For the one holding to the common pre-trib view, Christ's Second Coming will happen some seven years later.  Seems to me that this would render the admonition empty, or meaningless---unless it was meant for the Israelites of Joel's era.  In that case, the admonition would be full, if you will.  For those holding to the other views, well, the time constraint closes in even further.

NUMBER 3---(Joel 1:4-5)  What of this was not fulfilled in the Assyrian and/or Babylonian invasions?  Just before the Israelites entered the land of promise, they were told of the blessings they would receive for obeying God and the curses that would come upon them if they disobeyed (Deut. 28, esp. vss. 2 & 15/it's good to read the whole chp.).  When Daniel was in exile, he confessed his and his people's sins and acknowledged before God that what had happened to them was the result of the curses "written in the law of Moses" (Dan. 9:11-13).  Note these verses from Deuteronomy 28 (part of what is considered the law of Moses):

 38  Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in;  for the locust shall consume it.

 42  ALL thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

 49  The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth;  a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

 50  A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favor to the young:

 51  And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, UNTIL THOU BE DESTROYED:  which also shall NOT LEAVE THEE either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, UNTIL HE HAVE DESTROYED THEE.

And, just how bad would it be?

 53  And thou shalt eat THE FRUIT OF THINE OWN BODY, THE FLESH OF THY SONS AND OF THY DAUGHTERS, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:

I think of the message Rabshakeh sent to Hezekiah, recorded in II Kings 19.  Note this from there,

 11  Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, BY DESTROYING THEM UTTERLY:  and shalt thou be delivered?

A little further in the account, Hezekiah acknowledged before God that it was so...

 17  OF A TRUTH, LORD, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands.

Well, Hezekiah prayed for God to save them (vs. 19), and He did (vs. 35!).  But, that was Judah and the southern kingdom.  Samaria and the northern kingdom didn't get deliverance.  And later, neither did the southern kingdom.  Note what is fixing to be the case for them a little later, in II Kings 21...

 12  Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, BOTH HIS EARS SHALL TINGLE.

 13  And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab:  AND I WILL WIPE JERUSALEM AS A MAN WIPETH A DISH, WIPING IT, AND TURNING IT UPSIDE DOWN.

I could go on and on, but I'm hoping maybe that that won't be necessary, at least concerning Joel 1:4-5.

NUMBER 4---(Joel 1:6)  The prophecy reads, "For A nation is come up upon My land..."  This does not dovetail well with a "Russian Federation" or "Meshech and Tubal" and "Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them" and "Gomer, and all his bands;  the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands;  and many people with thee" (Ezek. 38:3-6).  Seems to me that a "Russian Federation" would be plural by definition.

Earlier, with NUMBER 3, I pointed out that when Daniel was in exile, he confessed his and his people's sins and acknowledged before God that what had happened to them was the result of the curses "written in the law of Moses" (Dan. 9:11-13).  Notice what is said in Deuteronomy 28:

 49  The LORD shall bring A nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth;  A nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

 50  A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

Then, in Jeremiah 5 notice,

 15  Lo, I will bring A nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the LORD:  it is A mighty nation, it is An ancient nation, A nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

And from Jeremiah 6:

 22  Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and A great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.

 23  They shall lay hold on bow and spear;  they are cruel, and have no mercy;  their voice roareth like the sea;  and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

I am not aware of anything else in Jeremiah concerning A nation such as this responsible for what is spoken of concerning Israel and Judah other than Assyria or Babylon.  Rather, it is stated explicitly that the nation being spoken of is Assyria, then Babylon.  I know that I often speak of Assyria and Babylon, but, when the DOTL began with the Israelites, it was the nation of Assyria first---against the northern kingdom---then Babylon---against the southern kingdom.  Like with the main brunt of A hurricane, there is destruction, then the eye, then the rest of the hurricane.  I wonder what people used to think before it came to be realized that a hurricane is one big storm.  Can you imagine people thinking the storm was over, and then, a couple of hours later thinking a second one had come---when in reality, it was the same storm?  Also, we are used to hurricanes being named.  I think we could appropriately name the "hurricane" that came through Israel and Judah in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. as this:  "The Day of the LORD."  Note afresh from Jeremiah 50:

 17  Israel is a scattered sheep;  the lions have driven him away:  first the king of Assyria hath devoured him;  and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

NUMBER 5---(Joel 1:7-14)  On the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that this did not occur?  Besides what I have already brought out in the course of this thread, it is enough for me that the term "desolate" is used concerning the state of Israel after what went down.  This is a very telling term that Joel used in both 1:17-18 and 2:3.  The term is used throughout Jeremiah (and elsewhere) as a cursory glance into a concordance will show.  And, all I am getting at here is that by the evidence of Scripture, what Joel here prophesied did indeed happen.  I think of what Jeremiah said that the cry was at that time:  "DESTRUCTION UPON DESTRUCTION is cried;  for the whole land is spoiled..." (4:20).  I think it is kind of interesting how that what happened is expressed in Isaiah 7...

 20  In the same day shall the Lord SHAVE WITH A RAZOR THAT IS HIRED, namely them beyond the river, BY THE KING OF ASSYRIA, THE HEAD, AND THE HAIR OF THE FEET:  AND IT SHALL ALSO CONSUME THE BEARD.

I submit that when God got through shaving Israel and Judah, He got every whisker---and more.  Again, I ask, on the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that what Joel prophesied in 1:7-14 did not occur?  Now, I am not finished.  I aim to make stops at every place on the path that a stop is needful.  And, I've got at least 25 more stops to make.

NUMBER 6---(Joel 1:15)  Hey, on this one, I'm gonna hold myself to that thing of trying to state my evidences concisely!   The first half of the verse reads, "Alas for the day!  for the Day of the LORD is AT HAND."  For me, I just can't get 2800 plus years to harmonize with "at hand."

Right now, one thing I can get to harmonize with AT HAND is my bedtime!  I'm gonna be hittin' the sack in just a bit...

NUMBER 7---(Joel 1:15)  The Day of the LORD that came on the Israelites during the 8th and 6th centuries B.C. was on account of God's use of the Assyrians and Babylonians as chastening rods upon them.  Joel said, "and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."  I'm not sure how you square this with a "Russian Federation" that will be headed up by Satan and his beast and false prophet during the last days DOTL.  According to my understanding of what you have put forth Marilyn, your take on things would in effect attribute to God something that Satan is doing, as far as the Gentile nations are concerned.

NUMBER 8---(Joel 1:16-20)  While I have put forth much Scripture that speaks to what here happens as having already happened, I don't believe any of the Scripture I have yet put forth speaks specifically to "the rivers of waters are dried up" (vs. 20).  When I think of "rivers of waters" being dried up, I think, "Wow!"  Here in Western Kentucky, I live fairly close to four rivers (the Cumberland, Tennessee, Ohio, and Mississippi), and they are all huge!  I used to live between the Cumberland and Tennessee.  One was about a mile east of me, the other, about a mile west of me.  The same with Kentucky Dam and Barkley Dam.  These two dams mark the end of the rivers and the beginning of two lakes.  They are so close, that a national park named Land Between the Lakes was established, and a big part of this park is in the county where I presently live.  I've fished out of both the lakes and the rivers.  Just had to reminisce a little.

Annnyway, before I get too much into this, I believe the Hebrew here for "rivers" holds something of importance for us.  Consider from Strong's...

Strong's Concordance H650

Original Word: אָפִיק

Transliteration: ʼâphîyq

Phonetic Spelling: aw-feek'

from H622; properly, containing, i.e. a tube; also a bed or valley of a stream; also a strong thing or a hero; brook, channel, mighty, river, scale, stream, strong piece.

For me, it's not hard by this to see that anything that would be like a containment for water is in view, and, among other things, it is variously translated as "brook" and "channel" and "stream" and, of course, "river."  And, what do we find in Scripture concerning such?  Consider, from Isaiah 37:

 25  I have digged, and drunk water;  and with the sole of my feet have I DRIED UP ALL THE RIVERS OF THE BESIEGED PLACES.

This was boasted by Sennacherib, king of Assyria (vss. 21-25).  In Ezekiel, there is reference to such concerning Egypt also, in the days of Nebuchadrezzar.  Consider from chapter 30:

 12  And I will MAKE THE RIVERS DRY, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked:  and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, BY THE HAND OF STRANGERS:  I the LORD have spoken it.

And, there was also drought and dearth.  I know around my neck of the woods, we sometimes see this in measure.  When there's a lot of rain, of course, the brooks and streams will overflow.  But, the rivers and lakes will too.  And, conversely, when there is a scarcity of rain, levels get low.  The lakes and rivers will get so low that lots of ground is seen, which is not seen otherwise, even out in the middle areas.  And, of course, many brooks and streams will go completely dry, as anywhere.  I think of what it reads in Jeremiah 14:

  1   The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth.

  2   Judah mourneth, and the gates thereof languish;  they are black unto the ground;  and the cry of Jerusalem is gone up.

  3   And their nobles have sent their little ones to the waters:  they came to the pits, AND FOUND NO WATER;  THEY RETURNED WITH THEIR VESSELS EMPTY;  they were ashamed and confounded, and covered their heads.

  4   BECAUSE THE GROUND IS CHAPT, FOR THERE WAS NO RAIN IN THE EARTH, the plowmen were ashamed, they covered their heads.

NUMBER 9---(Joel 2:1)  Here we have similar to what Joel said in 1:15, and again, the sentence structure bears out what I have put forth earlier, but this time, the translators render H7138 as "nigh at hand."  I can see how, when something is repeated again within six verses, translators determine that some emphasis is in order.  Looks like to me, on this, most translators concur.

NUMBER 10---(Joel 2:2)  The first half of the verse reads, "A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains..."

In my opening post of this thread, I spoke just a little to the "darkness" of that day, making a tie in with what we find in the law of Moses.  Once again, Daniel, in his prayer to God for him and his people, explicitly acknowledges that "As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us" (Dan. 9:11-13).  The curses there written read in part, "And thou shalt GROPE AT NOONDAY, AS THE BLIND GROPETH IN DARKNESS..." (Deut. 28:29).  I would like to encourage you (and all) to read all of Deuteronomy 28, with our discussion/study in mind.  What ended up befalling the Israelites was certainly a dark day, with dark days.  In Isaiah 8, on account of the advance of the Assyrians (vs. 7), it says of the Israelites,

 22  And they shall look unto the earth;  and behold trouble AND DARKNESS, dimness of anguish;  and they shall be driven TO DARKNESS.

A little further, in chapter 9, it reads,

 19  Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land DARKENED, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire:  no man shall spare his brother.

In Jeremiah 13, God instructed His prophet to give them this warning:

 15  Hear ye, and give ear;  be not proud:  for the LORD hath spoken.

 16  Give glory to the LORD your God, before He cause DARKNESS, and before your feet stumble upon THE DARK MOUNTAINS, and, while ye look for light, He turn it into the shadow of death, and make it GROSS DARKNESS.

Of the same time, Zephaniah, in chapter 1 warned,

 15  That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of DARKNESS AND GLOOMINESS, a day of clouds and THICK DARKNESS.

As with the Day of the LORD judgment that came upon the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., the future DOTL judgment, which I believe is now looming, will be a dark day with dark days as well.

NUMBER 11---(Joel 2:2)  The last half of the verse reads, "...a great people and a strong;  there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."

This verse certainly indicates that the "nation" (1:6) coming against them is "a great people and a strong."  And, while it certainly indicates that there has never been one stronger, it's going to be "many generations" before another comes that is as strong.  And, so it has been and will be.  Of course, the strongest army that will ever be will not be earthly, but will be that one that returns with Christ at His Second Coming!

NUMBER 12---(Joel 2:3-9)  Besides what I have shown so far that speaks to the desolation and terror that God's chastening rods (the Assyrians and the Babylonians) did indeed effect upon the Israelites, I would make the following comments:

First of all, I can see the description, "The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses" (2:4) alluding to the "locusts" (1:4) spoken of earlier, which I take as the "nation" (1:6).  When the Jews looked on from higher elevations, especially at the advance of the Babylonians, I can easily imagine that they looked like a swarm of locusts, only with the appearance of horses---because that is what they were.  What is said in verses 7-9 certainly bespeaks the efficiency and might of their military.

Interestingly, Joel's prophecy says "they shall CLIMB THE WALL like men of war" (vs. 7) and "they shall RUN UPON THE WALL" (vs. 9).  Of course, we know that 6th century B.C. Jerusalem had a wall---before the Babylonians destroyed it.  Recall from II Kings 25:

 10  And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, BRAKE DOWN THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM ROUND ABOUT.

In Jeremiah 39, it reads thus...

  8   And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, AND BRAKE DOWN THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM.

Equally interesting is this Marilyn:  The only thing that I find in Ezekiel 38-39 concerning walls is from chapter 38, concerning what you call the "Russian Federation" and what they will do:

  9   Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

 10  Thus saith the Lord GOD;  It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

 11  And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of UNWALLED villages;  I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling WITHOUT WALLS, and having NEITHER BARS NOR GATES,

 12  To take a spoil, and to take a prey;  to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

NUMBER 13---(Joel 2:10)  The verse reads,

¹⁰ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Of the earth quaking before the LORD's army, consider this example of how the like occurred in connection with a much smaller army, back in the days of Jonathan and David.  From I Samuel 14:

¹⁵ And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great trembling.

If this happened when the Philistines fled before Jonathan and his armourbearer, the "quake" of Joel's prophecy is a non-obstacle, whatever the case or cause.  God can effect such anyway He would like, and has.  The same with what is prophesied in the rest of Joel 2:10.  Consider from Amos 5, which context supports an 8th century fulfillment...

¹⁸ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

¹⁹ As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

²⁰ Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Also, this from Amos 8, which likewise supports an 8th century fulfillment...

⁹ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: 

As far as a 6th century context, note from Ezekiel 32:

⁷ And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

While this is spoken concerning Egypt, the DOTL judgment in that day came upon them as well, as it did the other countries surrounding Israel.

NUMBER 14---(Joel 2:11)  The army causing all the desolation that Joel prophesies of up to this point is referred to as "My army" (meaning God's army).  How could the army under the beast's command be considered God's army?  Now Marilyn, it seems like you are seeing something a little differently on this, but what you have so far put forth is very vague, at least to me.  The only last day's army that I am seeing in Scripture that can be referred to as God's army is the one that will return with Christ at His Second Coming.

NUMBER 15---(Joel 2:12-14)  Considering how we see things taking place in The Revelation, how can what is happening at the hand of Satan and his imps be construed to be something that God would "repent" of---whatever the Israelites might do?  There's no context relating to the last day's DOTL where such a construction can be put on things, IMHO.  What has been prophesied of concerning the last day's is going to happen as prophesied, because the Israelites have done as they have done---as has humanity.

NUMBER 16---(Joel 2:15-17)  These verses record a continuation of God's call of the Israelites to repentance that we see in verses 12-14, but with the added instruction to call a gathering and what to request.  How can the specifics of this part of Joel's prophecy be made to fit the specifics of any other prophecy to be found concerning the Israelites of the last days?  During the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, whereas the Israelites might be encouraged to do something temple related, this would come at the bidding of the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3), not the Lord.  To the contrary, the only related instruction of the Lord to the Israelites at this time is, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." (Matt. 24:16ff).

NUMBER 17---(Joel 2:18-19ff)  As I have already pointed out, the opening word "Then" of 2:18 is key, as it points backward to the condition that must be met before what is promised afterward can be expected to come to pass.  Several pages ago, when I spoke to this, I referenced what is arguably the most familiar "then" condition found in Scripture.  Consider afresh from II Chronicles 7...

¹⁴ If My people, which are called by My name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

But, the passage goes further.  Consider what the LORD promised more specifically to Solomon...

¹⁷ And as for thee (Solomon), if thou wilt walk before Me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe My statutes and My judgments;

¹⁸ THEN will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.

It was certainly God's desire to bless, both the Israelites and Solomon.  But, what if they did not meet the "then" condition?  What THEN?  Consider the very next verses...

¹⁹ But if ye turn away, and forsake My statutes and My commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;

²⁰ THEN will I pluck them up by the roots out of My land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for My name, will I cast out of My sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.

²¹ And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house?

²² And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath He brought all this evil upon them.

So, we see that things could have gone either way.  Same with what we find prophesied in Joel 2:12-27.  Sadly, the way it went is what history records.  But, I'm reminded of Paul's words, "I say then, Hath God cast away His people?  God forbid..." (Rom. 11:1ff).

Just a little side note.  As an individual, I fell into the depths of sin as a child of God, and just like with the Israelites, God chastened me sore.  But also, as with them, He left a remnant of me.  That's what I was when I reached my bottom---a remnant.  And it was then that God got my attention with the Divine hope that there was more to life than what I was (and had been) experiencing.  The inspiration that I received from God that day was to give Him the same chance that I had given the world.  Well, I guess I met His "then" condition for me (which I've certainly endeavored to do), because He turned everything around in my life and has not ceased to bless me for over 38 years now.  I gladly and thankfully give God the glory for all I am or ever hope to be, because it has been Him, not me.  I did my own thing for several years, and though the catastrophe that my life became did not compute to me, I was at a total loss for the why and what to do about it.  I guess it would be remiss of me not to here give a link to my testimony (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/).

NUMBER 18---(Joel 2:20)  How does what is prophesied here fit with anything we see happening in The Revelation?  The Battle of Armageddon doesn't go like this, nor does any other last day's battle or development that I am finding in Scripture.

NUMBER 19---(Joel 2:20)  My previous evidence came from this same verse, but there is also another evidence here that I would like for us to look at.

You believe that "the northern army" is what you refer to as "the Russian Federation" and you appeal to Ezekiel 38-39 to support this.  Further, if I have understood you correctly, you believe that everything in Joel's prophecy is yet future and that this Russian Federation is going to come against Israel before the tribulation period.  Now, I believe we are both in agreement that, whoever "the northern army" is, it is the army responsible for the destruction spoken of prior to Joel 2:20.  And, at this point, the LORD, through the prophet Joel, is letting the Israelites know the following:  "But I will remove far off from you the northern army..."

One big difference in what we here believe is that you don't see the Israelites repenting prior to this.  You have made the statement, "Israel will turn to the Lord after the Russian Federation is dealt with by God" (underline mine).  You have said, "They turn to God because God saves them from destruction at the hands of the mighty Federation from the north" (underline mine).  On the other hand, I have pointed out God's call for them to repent in Joel 2:12-17, which, if they had done, they would have met the "Then" condition of verse 18.  This would have resulted in God doing for them as spoken in verses 18-27, which He did not do, because they did not repent.  I have already spoke to this at length, but am only mentioning it here as it is so relevant.

This brings us to this:  Who is "the northern army"?  You have continued to put forth that it is the "far northern army" and that this can only be a reference to your Russian Federation.  But, you don't have language to support the explicitness of your position.  The word "northern" is this, from the Worthy Forum Strong's:

Strong's Concordance H6830

Original Word: צְפוֹנִי

Transliteration: tsᵉphôwnîy

Phonetic Spelling: tsef-o-nee'

from H6828; northern; northern.

The word used in Joel literally means "northern."  Note also that it is "from H6828" which is this:

Strong's Concordance H6828

Original Word: צָפוֹן

Transliteration: tsâphôwn

Phonetic Spelling: tsaw-fone'

or צָפֹן; from H6845; properly, hidden, i.e. dark; used only of the north as a quarter (gloomy and unknown); north(-ern, side, -ward, wind).

Interestingly, this is the Hebrew word used for over 125 occurrences of the word "north" in the Old Testament.  I would like to encourage you (and all) to look at all the uses of this word that have nothing to do with a country in the north or coming from the north.  Suffice it for what I would like to show here that the following references do point explicitly to Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon:

From Jeremiah 25:

⁸ Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard My words,

⁹ Behold, I will send and take all the families OF THE NORTH, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

While some references concerning God's chastening rod from the north in the days of the prophets are not quite as easy to see, it's not difficult by the context of Jeremiah's prophecies to see that it is Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon that is coming from the north upon others as well, like the Philistines (47:1-7, esp. vs.2).  In Jeremiah 46, we find similarly concerning Nebuchadrezzar's coming upon Egypt.  Note verses 2, 13, and 26 concerning Nebuchadrezzar, and then these two verses:

²⁰ Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh OUT OF THE NORTH.

²⁴ The daughter of Egypt shall be confounded; she shall be delivered into the hand of the people OF THE NORTH.

Ezekiel's prophecy supports the same, as can be seen in chapter 26:

⁷ For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, FROM THE NORTH, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

And, there's more.  My question at this point is this:  In light of the above, and everything else that I have brought out in this thread up until now, by what criteria do you determine that it is your Russian Federation that is being spoken of in Joel 2:20?

NUMBER 20---(Joel 2:21-27)  While this section actually includes verses 18-20 as well, I have already focused upon these.  However, in the verse section of our focus now, I would like to first reinforce that the prosperity here spoken of is what God really desired for His people and what their experience would have been had they repented.  Because they did not repent, God did not remove "the northern army" but instead punished them until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths.  Consider from II Chronicles 36:

¹⁵ And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by His messengers (which would have included Joel), rising up betimes, and sending; because He had compassion on His people, and on His dwelling place:

¹⁶ BUT they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until THE WRATH OF THE LORD arose against His people, TILL THERE WAS NO REMEDY.

¹⁷ THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand.

¹⁸ And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

¹⁹ And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

²⁰ And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

²¹ To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, UNTIL THE LAND HAD ENJOYED HER SABBATHS: for as long as she LAY DESOLATE she kept sabbath, to fulfil THREESCORE AND TEN YEARS.

I have pointed this out partly to draw attention to Joel 2:25, where God lets them know that He would gladly restore to them what He had destroyed by what He calls, "My great army which I sent among you."  Joel's prophecy opens with words concerning this same destruction, and we find that God's "great army" is referred to as "a nation" (1:6), as "a great people and a strong" (2:2), and as "His army" (2:11), which is also one and the same as "the northern army" (2:20).

Now Marilyn, if I am understanding you correctly, you don't believe there is a distinction to be made between any of the references to the Day of the LORD spoken of in Joel.  And, if I am understanding you correctly, you are believing that there is going to be a major battle before the DOTL---involving "the northern army"---and then a major battle at the time of the DOTL---involving those gathered for the Battle of Armageddon.  There are five mentions of the DOTL spoken of in Joel, and some very specific words applying to each one mentioned.  How do you consistently reconcile your view with these five mentions?

Also, for those who see "the northern army" (and the other references thereto) differently, I would have the same question.

NUMBER 21---(Joel 2:28)  I would just ask this question of this reference:  After what?  Hopefully my position on this has been made very clear.  In a nutshell, Peter clarifies this for us in his quote of this portion of Joel's prophecy in Acts 2:16-21, especially verse 17, which reads, "And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS..."

NUMBER 22---(Joel 2:28)  My previous evidence also stemmed from this reference.  In case my position concerning my evidence NUMBER 21 is not yet clear to you, the answer to my "After what?" question is, "After everything Joel has prophesied of prior to this."  As I believe I have thoroughly shown, Scripture, according to scriptural concepts, solidly supports this.  The Day of the LORD judgments Joel prophesied of in 1:15 and 2:1 were "at hand" and "nigh at hand" in Joel's day---looming on Israel's horizon.  Joel's next use of the phrase "the Day of the LORD" concerns how "great and very terrible" it was going to be, after which he asks, "who can abide it?" (2:11), whereupon we see the LORD's gracious call for them to repent---beginning with the very next word:  "Therefore..." (2:12-17).  Because the Israelites did not repent, the LORD did not bring to pass the "Then..." (2:18) of what He would have liked to have done for them (2:18-27), but rather, wore them out with His chastening rod(s) and grounded them (so to speak) for 70 years (Jer. 25:8-11).

This brings me to what my evidence NUMBER 22 is.  Joel 2:28 represents the lead-in for the section of Joel's prophecy that Peter quotes on the Day of Pentecost concerning the Day of the LORD judgment that is going to happen "in the last days" (Acts 2:17)---according to Peter's clarification.  Note the first seven words as Joel had prophesied:  "And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD..." (Joel 2:28/Acts 2:17).  The combination of Joel's words and Peter's clarification for those gathered on the Day of Pentecost denotes a time far removed from the "is at hand" (1:15) and the "is nigh at hand" (2:1) that Joel had prophesied of prior to the "And it shall come to pass afterward" lead-in.

NUMBER 23---(Joel 2:28)  Something even further concerning this lead-in to what was to "come to pass afterward" is this:  If what Joel is now about to prophesy actually follows the spoken blessing (2:18-27) by just a few days, weeks, or months, this means---according to your position Marilyn---that God will be removing the northern army and then blessing the Israelites and then allowing them to be subjected to a time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, you are believing that your Russian Federation is going to be attacking Israel (very soon now, like early 2022), then God is going to remove it (very soon thereafter), then God is going to bless Israel to the tune of Joel 2:18-27 (very soon thereafter as well), then the tribulation is going to begin---right?   My thought at this moment is that I am not even in the proximity of being able to get the prophetic puzzle pieces to fit together as you say they do.

NUMBER 24---(Joel 2:28-32)  I can't help but to express that for me, this is one of the most scenic places on our path.  We looked in this direction several pages back (before we started down our present path), but I believe it would do us much good to look at it again now, just to make sure something wasn't missed.

Recall that on the Day of Pentecost, Peter appealed to this part of Joel's prophecy.  To those who were gathered that day, scratching their heads about it all, Peter said, "But THIS IS THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16).  And, what was that?  Following is the first part of that prophecy, which relates to what was then happening.  Continuing in Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel thus...

¹⁷ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

¹⁸ And on My servants and on My handmaidens I will pour out in those days of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

According to Peter, what happened on the Day of Pentecost marked the beginning of the fulfilling of Joel's prophecy, and this first part pertained to God's pouring out of His Spirit upon the Church.  From our perspective now, we can see that this event marked the beginning, or inauguration, of the era of the New Testament Church, popularly referred to as the Church Age.  For believers, it should not be too surprising that any prophecy be fulfilled.  What is sometimes surprising, however, is to find unanticipated elements in a prophecy.  Just such an element exists here.  Looking back, as it turns out, Joel's prophecy gives defining marks OF THE VERY DAY of the BEGINNING of the era of the Church.  But, equally as remarkable as this, it also gives defining marks OF THE VERY DAY of the CLOSING of this era.  This outstanding element of Joel's prophecy can be seen when its relationship to the 6th Seal is understood.  Now, follow closely.

That the era of the New Testament Church began on the Day of Pentecost is readily apparent.  When will it end?  It will end with the rapture of the Church, just before the Day of the Lord judgment begins.  With these things in mind, notice the last part of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted and something else that will occur just before the Day of the Lord begins.  Again, from Acts 2:

 20  The SUN shall be turned into DARKNESS, and the MOON into BLOOD,

before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

This exact phenomena concerning the sun and the moon is spoken of in The Revelation.  Before we look afresh at the specific place, imagine that The Revelation is a treasure trove of mysteries (which it is!), each with its own padlock.  If the above words of Joel's prophecy represented notches on a key, the key with these notches would fit the lock of the mystery of the 6th Seal.  Consider the similarity between the above verse of Joel's prophecy that Peter quoted and the opening and closing verses of the account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12 and 17):

VERSE 12

And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

and the SUN became BLACK as sackcloth of hair, and the MOON became as BLOOD;

VERSE 17

For the great Day of His Wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand

As can be seen, the first half of Acts 2:20 fits verse 12, and the last half fits verse 17.  This is the only place in The Revelation where this key from Joel's prophecy will fit.  I can almost hear the click .  Scripture consistently supports that the era of the Church will close on this day that "the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood."  Of course, since the close of the era of the Church is brought about by the rapture, this happens the same day as well.  Moreover, this all takes place just before the Day of the Lord judgment begins---TO THE DAY.  Summed up, Joel's prophecy marks both the opening and closing days of the era of the Church (like bookends), giving us a very important key to unlocking the mystery of the 6th Seal and the timing of the rapture.  All of this reminds me of the way puzzle pieces that are truly meant to fit together also interlock with other pieces.  Said another way, this reminds me of the way a puzzle is supposed to go together.

NUMBER 25---(Joel 2:28-32)  Looking once again at the same section of Joel that we focused on in NUMBER 24, but from a different vantage point on our path, it is very telling that Peter only ever draws attention to this part of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2:16-21).  I doubt that anyone would suppose that he was not at this time also aware of the rest of Joel's prophecy---especially all that was prior to what he here quoted.  I submit that many others present on the Day of Pentecost were familiar with this as well.  What am I getting at?  If everything Joel prophesied concerned only one Day of the LORD judgment---as you and so many others are believing---where's the concern of the assembled Jews over everything else that Joel had prophesied prior to what Peter quoted?  Why would there not have been a sense of dire urgency stirred over all of that, especially with them having just crucified their Messiah?

NUMBER 26---(Joel 3:1-8)  Akin to my NUMBER 23 reasoning, if "the northern army" (2:20) is your Russian Federation and God removes them before the tribulation starts and then blesses the Israelites to the tune of 2:21-27, how can what is spoken in 3:1-8 concerning what "the nations" will have done to the Israelites take place---after "the tribulation"?  Now, in response to my NUMBER 23, you ended up indicating that you believe 2:21-27 concerns the Millennium ("v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel's restoration. (Millennium)").  Further, you indicated that you believe Joel 2:18 concerns the future---you just don't indicate when in the future ("Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)").  I've said this to point out that in your post, you don't indicate anything concerning the words of Joel 2:19, which are lead-in words of blessing towards the Israelites, undeniably connected to what he prophesies concerning "the northern army" in 2:20.  Why in the world am I busying myself trying to sort through all of this?   Because, when I begin to look closer at the way you try to fit the prophetic puzzle pieces, I see a jumble rather than true fits.  What you do with your take on 2:21-27 doesn't solve the fit problem that 2:19 poses for your position.

Here's a copy & paste of your post I am referring to.  Again, note your absence of anything relating to Joel 2:19.  An oversight?

"Hi NAE,

Joel 2: 1 - 17 The beginning of the Day of the Lord, time period.

Joel 2: 18 God saying what He will do, (future)

Joel 2: 20 God removes the Northern army.

v. 21 - 27 God tells of Israel`s restoration. (Millennium)

v. 28 & 29 God reveals that He will give them His Holy Spirit. (millennium)

v. 30 - 32 God gives some detail on the specific Day of the Lord. 

ch. 3 God gives more detail of the specific Day of the Lord when He comes to deliver Israel and judge the nations."

NUMBER 27---(Joel 3:9-16)  Not forgetting everything else I have brought out in this thread up until now, for those who hold that every mention of the DOTL in Joel is of the same DOTL judgment, note that everything connected with the first three mentions of the DOTL (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11) is a warning of judgment against the children of Israel, but, everything connected with the last two mentions of the DOTL (2:31 and 3:14) is words of blessing for Israel and of judgment against the heathen.  Whatever one's position, this is something that must be considered and reconciled---consistently.

NUMBER 28---(Joel 3:17-21)  What Joel here prophesies concerns what God will do for the Israelites and the land of Israel in the latter time of the last days---in the time of Christ's Millennial Reign (e.g., "And it shall come to pass in that day"/vs. 18).  God's desire would have been to bless them in this way back in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., but they would not repent of their wicked ways and turn to Him, as He instructed them to do in Joel 2:12-17.  If they had, they would have met the "Then" condition of 2:18 and God would have at that time did for them what is written in 2:18-27.  However, what they did---which resulted in what God did---was this, as recorded in II Chronicles 36:

16 But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised His words, and misused His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

17 THEREFORE He brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: He gave them all into his hand.

18 And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.

19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

20 And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:

21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

NUMBER 29---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  At this stop, I would like to point out that there is no mention or hint of the Antichrist in the book of Joel.  Moreover, the Antichrist has nothing to do with---nor is he involved in anything having to do with---the first three Day of the LORD judgments prophesied of in Joel (1:15, 2:1, and 2:11).  The "nation" of 1:6, the "great people and a strong" of 2:2, "His (God's) army" of 2:11, "the northern army" of 2:20, and the army God calls "My great army" of 2:25 were being directed and used by God for the purpose of chastening the Israelites in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  The nations of the last days will be directed and used by the Antichrist against the Israelites and later Christ and His army, in the showdown of the Battle of Armageddon.  Consider what John writes in Revelation 19...

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.

We know that Christ would not be coming against Himself, or what God would refer to as "My great army" at the Battle of Armageddon.  As Jesus said in Mark 3...

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

NUMBER 30---(Joel 1:1-3:21)  Finally, whatever of Joel may be believed to fit The Revelation, it must fit, and not be in contradiction.  For example, in Joel 1 it reads (concerning the locusts),

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

But, in Revelation 9 it reads thus (concerning the locusts),

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they SHOULD NOT hurt the grass of the earth, neither ANY green thing, neither ANY tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Another example would be this from Joel 2:2 concerning the army there being spoken of: "there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."  As the KJV reads, this wording allows for another of "the like" but not until after "the years of many generations."  If the "Russian Federation" is the army being spoken of and it comes against Israel just before the tribulation, there is not "many" generations between this time and the Battle of Armageddon, but only one.  Conversely, if this portion of Joel's prophecy indicates that there shall never be the like ever again (as some other translations suggest), there's still one more.  After Christ's Millennial Reign there is the Gog/Magog uprising, when Satan will "gather them together to battle:  the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" (Rev. 20:8).  I submit that the only interpretation free of these conflicts is that the army being spoken of in Joel 2:2 was Nebuchadrezzar's Babylon.

Well, there's the 30 checkpoints where we stopped along our path, all listed without interruption.  Hope this makes this thread concerning Joel's Prophecies and the Day of the LORD a more helpful study.

Hi NAE,

 Wow brother. Good stuff.

I'm going to, again, go thru Joel carefully.... as any good Berean would and should do, and see if what you say ...... fits.

Thanks for this. 

[not an echo]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:29 AM, Diaste said:

On 1/19/2022 at 11:41 PM, not an echo said:

As I indicated before we started down the path we just finished, there is also the path of EXTERNAL EVIDENCES that there was indeed a Day of the LORD judgment that happened in both the 8th and 6th centuries B.C., which if so, means this fact is very relevant to correctly interpreting Joel's prophecy.  We will be starting down that path shortly.

If one breaks the prophecy up into pieces it can be made to say anything. All the elements of the prophecy must come to pass with in the scope of the fulfillment of the prophecy or it did not come to pass.

Deut 18 and 2 Peter 1 speaks to this. 

So in order for the Joel 1 to have been fulfilled in ancient times not only would the day of the Lord have to be impending but all the food grasses must be burned up, the trees scorched and the water dried up, the pastures burned, as well as the meat and drink offering withheld from the house of God, and all of this at the same time. 

Now if proof of all of the above can be presented as occurring together in either the 6 BC or 8 BC, or any time in history, please submit the findings.

Not only this but Joel tell us in 1:12, "...surely the joy of MANKIND has dried up." This is a reference to a global and not local event as Joel tells us the food, the wine, the oil and the fruits are all gone and mankind's joy is destroyed. 

Did old Nebby destroy the grass and the trees and the vine and the dry up the water? Globally? He didn't even do that in Israel. 

Not even close to fulfillment. This is end of the age stuff at the one, singular day of joy and terror of the 2nd coming of Jesus. 

Hello Diaste,

I did a scan of my thread and I noticed a related post of yours back on page nine, but I couldn't find that I ever made a reply to it.  So, I apologize (kinda ) for that.  Though I can't say for sure, I'm thinking that I may have not replied to it because you did not actually address it to me, though you did (kinda ).

Concerning your opening paragraph, what I have done with the book of Joel's prophecy is to show how---by Scriptural concepts---that the first three DOTL judgments that he prophesied of are consistently supported by other scriptures to have been fulfilled in the 8th and 6th centuries B.C.  The thing of breaking "the prophecy up into pieces" as you say is merely reflective of the inability to show everything, that needs to be shown, in one sentence, a paragraph, a post, a page, or even a thread.  You state later, "Now if proof of all of the above can be presented as occurring together in either the 6 BC or 8 BC, or any time in history, please submit the findings."  To this I would ask:  What evidence is it that I have put forth of an 8th or 6th century B.C. fulfillment that you are believing did not come to pass at that time?

Concerning the specifics you mention, that the Day of the Lord would "have to be impending" is a given, and again, I submit that the DOTL judgments of 1:15, 2:1, and 2:11 did occur.  Whereas I felt that what I had put forth concerning such things as the "food grasses" and "trees" and "pastures" being "burned up" or "scorched" would be sufficient, I guess not.  What I had mostly done prior was to point out what was said about all the "destruction" and "desolation" and how this would have covered such as that---and I believe it does.  At this moment, it almost seems that you are in question if fire had a part in the destruction and desolation that ancient Israel experienced.  In any case, Scripture does speak more specifically to this.

Beginning with Jerusalem, we know that the temple, the city, the walls, and more were burned.  Consider from II Kings 25:

8 And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem:

9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.

Concerning the Israelites and their land in that day, consider this from Isaiah 1:

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

7 Your COUNTRY IS DESOLATE, your CITIES are BURNED WITH FIRE: your LAND, strangers devour it in your presence, AND IT IS DESOLATE, as overthrown by strangers.

In Jeremiah we also find evidences of the like.  Consider from chapter 2:

14 Is Israel a servant? is he a homeborn slave? why is he spoiled?

15 The young lions roared upon him, and yelled, and they made his LAND WASTE: his CITIES ARE BURNED without inhabitant.

And, from Jeremiah 7:

19 Do they provoke Me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, Mine anger and My fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and UPON THE TREES OF THE FIELD, and UPON THE FRUIT OF THE GROUND, AND IT SHALL BURN, AND SHALL NOT BE QUENCHED.

And, from Jeremiah 21:

12 O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest My fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

13 Behold, I am against thee, O inhabitant of the valley, and rock of the plain, saith the LORD; which say, Who shall come down against us? or who shall enter into our habitations?

14 But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD: and I WILL KINDLE A FIRE IN THE FOREST THEREOF, AND IT SHALL DEVOUR ALL THINGS ROUND ABOUT IT.

Ezekiel was instructed by God to actually illustrate several things for the people concerning the nature and extent of His judgment upon them.  Consider this illustration God told him to use, which we find in chapter five...

1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.

2 Thou shalt BURN WITH FIRE a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.

3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.

4 Then take of them AGAIN, AND CAST THEM INTO THE MIDST OF THE FIRE, AND BURN THEM IN THE FIRE; FOR THEREOF SHALL A FIRE COME FORTH INTO ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

Concerning "the water dried up" I would encourage you to look at my NUMBER 8, which speaks to this.

Concerning "the meat and drink offering withheld" it is easy to understand why God would be done with this.  Consider from Isaiah 1:

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread My courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto Me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hateth: they are a trouble unto Me; I am weary to bear them.

Consider what Jeremiah said relating to this, from Lamentations 2:

5 The LORD was AS AN ENEMY: He hath swallowed up Israel, He hath swallowed up all her palaces: He hath destroyed His strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

6 And He hath VIOLENTLY taken away His tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: He hath destroyed His places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of His anger the king and the priest.

7 The LORD hath CAST OFF His altar, He hath ABHORRED His sanctuary, He hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.

Concerning your interpretation that Joel 1:12 is "a reference to a global and not local event" the verse reads,

12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

I'm taking it that to you "the sons of men" indicates global.  I may have missed something, but I've never gotten that kind of impression from the use of this phrase in this verse.  To me, the way that it is used in Joel is descriptive of about the same sons of men that David was speaking of in Psalms 58:

1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

Diaste, as I indicated at the start (see top of page 10) of that path I just finished, "I believe as I do because of what I am seeing both internally (within the book of Joel itself, understood according to Scriptural concepts) and externally (in other places of Scripture, understood according to context)."  I will be starting down the path of external evidences shortly, but I've got a full weekend.  Maybe we can take in some of that path next week.

One thing I am now wanting to do first is to incorporate (and edit in) some of my above thoughts into my path of INTERNAL EVIDENCES, as perhaps a "CHECKPOINT ADD" with the goal of being able to refer others to the particular NUMBER that corresponds to the particular verse or section of Joel in question.

[not an echo]

On 1/20/2022 at 8:40 PM, JoeCanada said:

Hi NAE,

 Wow brother. Good stuff.

I'm going to, again, go thru Joel carefully.... as any good Berean would and should do, and see if what you say ...... fits.

Thanks for this. 

Hello Joe,

Hey, thanks a lot!

Concerning your second sentence, I do the same thing, even with everything I have developed.

If you find anything that you believe to be in error, let's talk about it.

Hey, we can even talk about what you believe to be truth!

[Diaste]

Just gotta point out a few things.

On 1/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, not an echo said:

NUMBER 1---(Joel 1:1)  It's a hard proposition for me to swallow that Joel was shown what he was shown---when he was shown it---and that it did not connect hard with the children of Israel in his era---especially in consideration of the sin of God's chosen people.  To suggest that there was only ever a last day's Day of the LORD (DOTL) judgment in view is to me bizarre---especially with our nearly 3000 year perspective of retrospect.

This appears to show a rigid belief and a conclusion apart from the facts. It's not evidence because it's 'hard to swallow' or seemingly 'bizarre'.

A famous author said, "The difference between truth and fiction is fiction has to make sense." I think that holds true for most of this as the belief will now override the facts or force the facts to fit the belief.

On 1/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, not an echo said:

But further, the prophecy says, "let your children TELL THEIR CHILDREN, AND THEIR CHILDREN ANOTHER GENERATION."  We're talking about grand children and great grandchildren.  Seems to me that this would involve some time.  For the one holding to the common pre-trib view, Christ's Second Coming will happen some seven years later.  Seems to me that this would render the admonition empty, or meaningless---unless it was meant for the Israelites of Joel's era.  In that case, the admonition would be full, if you will.  For those holding to the other views, well, the time constraint closes in even further.

There are those in Israel who escape to a great valley when the Lord alights on the Mount of Olives. There are survivors of all those nation who came against Jerusalem when the Lord returns to fight. Why are not these to whom Joel refers? Why do you pick the explanation above when there are other actual biblical references to generation after generation that will have witnessed both the last week, the coming of the Lord and the slaughter of the great army? 

 

[truth7t7]

17 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Just gotta point out a few things.

This appears to show a rigid belief and a conclusion apart from the facts. It's not evidence because it's 'hard to swallow' or seemingly 'bizarre'.

A famous author said, "The difference between truth and fiction is fiction has to make sense." I think that holds true for most of this as the belief will now override the facts or force the facts to fit the belief.

There are those in Israel who escape to a great valley when the Lord alights on the Mount of Olives. There are survivors of all those nation who came against Jerusalem when the Lord returns to fight. Why are not these to whom Joel refers? Why do you pick the explanation above when there are other actual biblical references to generation after generation that will have witnessed both the last week, the coming of the Lord and the slaughter of the great army? 

 

No Mortal Human Body Will Live Beyond The Lords Last Day Judgement By Fire Seen Below 

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[truth7t7]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Just gotta point out a few things.

This appears to show a rigid belief and a conclusion apart from the facts. It's not evidence because it's 'hard to swallow' or seemingly 'bizarre'.

A famous author said, "The difference between truth and fiction is fiction has to make sense." I think that holds true for most of this as the belief will now override the facts or force the facts to fit the belief.

There are those in Israel who escape to a great valley when the Lord alights on the Mount of Olives. There are survivors of all those nation who came against Jerusalem when the Lord returns to fight. Why are not these to whom Joel refers? Why do you pick the explanation above when there are other actual biblical references to generation after generation that will have witnessed both the last week, the coming of the Lord and the slaughter of the great army? 

 

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ, that will never take place

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Diaste]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, not an echo said:

NUMBER 5---(Joel 1:7-14)  On the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that this did not occur?  Besides what I have already brought out in the course of this thread, it is enough for me that the term "desolate" is used concerning the state of Israel after what went down.  This is a very telling term that Joel used in both 1:17-18 and 2:3.  The term is used throughout Jeremiah (and elsewhere) as a cursory glance into a concordance will show.  And, all I am getting at here is that by the evidence of Scripture, what Joel here prophesied did indeed happen.  I think of what Jeremiah said that the cry was at that time:  "DESTRUCTION UPON DESTRUCTION is cried;  for the whole land is spoiled..." (4:20).  I think it is kind of interesting how that what happened is expressed in Isaiah 7...

 20  In the same day shall the Lord SHAVE WITH A RAZOR THAT IS HIRED, namely them beyond the river, BY THE KING OF ASSYRIA, THE HEAD, AND THE HAIR OF THE FEET:  AND IT SHALL ALSO CONSUME THE BEARD.

I submit that when God got through shaving Israel and Judah, He got every whisker---and more.  Again, I ask, on the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that what Joel prophesied in 1:7-14 did not occur?  Now, I am not finished.  I aim to make stops at every place on the path that a stop is needful.  And, I've got at least 25 more stops to make.

This theme is oft repeated in your 'evidences'. Indeed in many of your posts I see the same thing. Proving a negative is impossible but you ask for it again and again. 

"On the basis of what (scripturally) can it be held that this did not occur? " Because it can't be proven is didn't occur is not any sort of proof it did occur. It's not license to gap fill nor provide personal interpretation.

As I have asked for may time on the basis of the test of true prophecy, that it came from the Most High God and the prophet who spoke the words heard those words from the Lord of lords, and spoke truthfully and accurately; is did the prophecy come to pass as spoken? In the case of Joel 1 there would have to be evidence of the occurrence of all the elements and conditions of the prophecy come to pass in history past instead of history future. 

I believe you contend the only part of Joel that is future is after Joel 2:29. I think you have stated that Joel 2:28-29 came to pass in Acts 2[it didn't, but that's a coming reply] Then at some point in history past the prophecy of Joel 1:1 through Joel 2:26 must have occurred and there should be some evidence for it, somewhere. I mean, to be so adamant about your personal convictions on this you must a trunkful of historical documents.

I would need to see a great deal of actual proof any of Joel has been fulfilled based on the following points, all which will require documentation they came to pass as Joel spoke:

1. Alas for the day! For the Day of the LORD is near,

2. the grain and drink offerings are withheld from the house of your God.

3. "To You, O LORD, I call, for fire has consumed the open pastures and flames have scorched all the trees of the field"

4. Even the beasts of the field pant for You, for the streams of water have dried up, and fire has consumed the open pastures.

The above must all occur together

5. Like the dawn overspreading the mountains a great and strong army appears, such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come.

Here we have an army that never was nor ever will be. Since the 8th or 6th century there have been many great armies. Alexander's armies were superior to both Babylon and Persia. The Romans were also greater. The Mongols, the Muslim conquests of 700 years that swept the world and reportedly killed 250 million people were greater than Babylon in the 6th century.

6. Before them a fire devours, and behind them a flame scorches. The land before them is like the Garden of Eden, but behind them, it is like a desert wasteland...

Can this be proven to have been the case when Babylon attacked Israel?

7. Their appearance is like that of horses, and they gallop like swift steeds.

Did Babylon field an army that looked like horses? No. John did see one in Revelation though.

8. Nations writhe in horror before them; every face turns pale.

This is not Israel-centric, it's global. 'Nations'!

9. And the LORD answered His people: “Behold, I will send you grain, new wine, and oil, and by them you will be satisfied. I will never again make you a reproach among the nations.

If this is a true prophecy then it could not have occurred. Israel is a still a reproach among the nations. This has not come to pass.

10. You will praise the name of the LORD your God, who has worked wonders for you. My people will never again be put to shame. 27Then you will know that I am present in Israel and that I am the LORD your God, and there is no other. My people will never again be put to shame.

Twice the Lord says, "My people will never again be put to shame." If the Joel prophecy was  history this part failed. If this was slated as 6th century fulfillment then why did the Holocaust happen? Or 70 AD? 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, not an echo said:

NUMBER 6---(Joel 1:15)  Hey, on this one, I'm gonna hold myself to that thing of trying to state my evidences concisely!   The first half of the verse reads, "Alas for the day!  for the Day of the LORD is AT HAND."  For me, I just can't get 2800 plus years to harmonize with "at hand."

It will be near when all the other elements of the prophecy are happening. It's not 'near' as in a date, it's near as in conjunction with the other events. Joel says, "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision."

Only when all the armies are gathered in the valley is the day of the Lord near, as Joel says in Joel 3:9-14. It's not near on the calendar, it's near to occurring at the proper time when all other conditions are aligned. 

[Diaste]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:23 PM, not an echo said:

NUMBER 16---(Joel 2:15-17)  These verses record a continuation of God's call of the Israelites to repentance that we see in verses 12-14, but with the added instruction to call a gathering and what to request.  How can the specifics of this part of Joel's prophecy be made to fit the specifics of any other prophecy to be found concerning the Israelites of the last days?  During the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, whereas the Israelites might be encouraged to do something temple related, this would come at the bidding of the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3), not the Lord.  To the contrary, the only related instruction of the Lord to the Israelites at this time is, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." (Matt. 24:16ff).

I suppose this makes some sense if a person is unclear who the people of God are, what makes Israel true Israel and the difference between the Israel of God and the land of borders. Also muddying the prophetic waters is unsupported concepts like dispensationalism, the 'church age' the 'age of grace', and the like.  Anyone of the mind the 'church' traits are purity and righteousness in pure love and obedience to God and the Lord Jesus, and based on this is due a sweeping global flight in secret is under strong delusion.