Replacement Theology

May 30, 2003

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May 30, 2003

Oddly enough, this was something that my current pastor had to pass in his "audition" (in a period of time where I was attending the church but not a member of it) for me.

If he and the church taught that Israel had been replaced by the church, I'd have not stayed, because I do not believe that to be true.

May 31, 2003

I have to disagree that the central question is "Does God keep his promises"?

I believe 100% that God keeps His promises, yet I can not rule out Replacement Theology just yet. To me the question seems to be "Who did God make the promises to? Who are the seed of Abraham"?

If the "seed" are physical descendants then I can understand the conclusion that the Church and Israel are seperate (though there are still a couple of problems in my mind). If the "seed" are spiritual descendants (believers) then I can see how Replacement Theology might be valid.

The real question is did God make the promises to the physical or spiritual descendants? That is what I was getting at with my original post (now on page 2).

Romans 11 does not rule out Replacement Theology if "seed" = spiritual descendants!

I am NOT a subscriber to Replacement Theology. I am not here to defend it but I have logical questions that need answered. This is not such an open an shut case as some are trying to make it.

If the "seed" = physical descendants there are theological problems. If "seed" = spiritual descendants there are theological problems. I am just trying to see how everyone deals with these problems in their own head.

Who were the promises made to? Physical or Spiritual descendants?

May 31, 2003

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OneAccord · May 31, 2003

There are some that put forth that Israel inherits an earthly kingdom and the Church inherits a heavenly kingdom. There is reference made to the descendants of Abraham being multiplied as the 'star of heaven' and as the 'sand which is on the seashore' (Gen 22:17) The Church being the stars, and Israel the sand. In other words God has a dual agenda.

This concept goes along with the Church being raptured out of here, leaving Israel here for the Tribulation, and then to inherit the earth for the millenium, while the Church remains in the heavenlies.

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

I find Dad Ernie's post interesting, though I have yet to form any conclusions about this topic, I'm still figuring it all out as best I can. I never had noticed the part about the branches that were broken off. Who do you think these broken-off branches represent?

Also I believe it means what it says, that ALL Israel will be saved, not just a remnant.

Ovedya · May 31, 2003

We've had this discussion before, huh Dad? Here we go again....[you know how stubborn I can be!]

Dad Ernie writes:
Now one other issue that keeps coming up is the idea that Christians are grafted into the Jews. This couldn't be further from the truth. The confusion lies in understanding what the "Olive Tree" in Romans represents. It represents the "Kingdom of God". The Kingdom of God was TAKEN FROM the Jews and given to the gentiles. In other words they were broken off from the Olive Tree that the Gentiles could be grafted in.

Romans 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

While I would agree that we are not "grafted into the jews", this verse makes it pretty clear that Jesus is the root but the "tree" is Israel's promised Kingdom and we have JOINED them. Note that "some" branches were broken and we were grafted in "among" them....if they are no longer holy then neither are we according to verse 16

In Ephesians, it speaks of the Gentiles being "drawn nigh" to the Commonwealth of Israel. The picture developed in Eph 1-3 is of Christ building a "habitation wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit" (Eph 2:22) and both Jew and Gentile becoming ONE IN CHRIST - In the Kingdom of God, so we become "kin" in the spirit of Christ, NOT in the spirit of Jacob or Israel.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel [what's this about the spirit of Jacob?] , and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints [who are the saints here?], and are of God's household,

Ephesians 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

This is a good verse for rebuking Replacement Theology. It clearly says that all covenants of promise [including the Kingdom] were given to Israel and are administered to the gentiles through being joined to THAT covenant.

We are now JOINED to the Israel of G-d but that is quite different from replacing the promise given to Israel.

This always gets Dad Ernie riled up!!!!

Webster's defines commonwealth as:
2 : a nation, state, or other political unit: as a : one founded on law and united by compact or tacit agreement of the people for the common good

:il:

In addition, I referenced Jer. 11:16 earlier in this thread showing that Israel is the olive tree. God planted this tree in the OT. Paul's discourse in Romans 11 is consistent with this verse.

Following is the footnote from the RcV (Recovery Version New Testament) for Romans 11:17:

On "grafting" it says, "Grafting produces an organic union (see note 51 in ch. 6). It is not the exchanging of a poor life for a better life. Rather, it is the uniting of two lives as one so that they may share one mingled life and one living. Such a mingling of life takes place when two similar yet different lives pass through death (cutting) and resurrection (growth). This depicts our union with Christ."

On "olive tree" it reads, "According to the word in Matt. 2:15, "Out of Egypt I called My Son," a quotation from Hosea 11:1, Christ and the real Israel are one entity. When the Gentile believers are grafted into Christ, they are grafted into Israel, the cultivated olive tree, to become fellow partakers of the fatness (Christ) of the root (the patriarchs

May 31, 2003

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traveller · May 31, 2003

Cool yod! It produces more fruit after the seven years?

ALL THE EARTH declars His glory!!

OneAccord · May 31, 2003

Seven years??????? Hmmm.....isn;t the Tribualtion supposed to last for seven years??? Then a bumper crop???? \o/

Ovedya · May 31, 2003

And along this reasoning....have you ever heard about what happens when you graft a wild branch into an olive tree? It kills the fruit for up to 7 years but after a time, grafting natural branches back in will make the tree stronger and it will produce abundantly more fruit.

This according to an olive grower in Zichron Ya'cov just north of Natanya, Israel....

Even the trees of the field declare His glory!

I did not know that. Interesting!