Catholics and Salvation

[halifaxchristian]

Pax...I was a Catholic...and took part in the sacraments. They are vain repitition. They are useless tradition. They are distractions. They are a form of godliness that denies the power thereof. They are a deception.

For what it's worth...these words come from a young man who knows.

[Assisi]

Pax...I was a Catholic...and took part in the sacraments.  They are vain repitition.  They are useless tradition.  They are distractions.  They are a form of godliness that denies the power thereof.  They are a deception.

For what it's worth...these words come from a young man who knows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Acts, chapter 19

1: While Apol'los was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.

2: And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

aha, so the answer to the question was NO!

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Oh,

so even faith-alone Paul indicated that they should be baptized immediately, if they believed.

Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

and faith-alone Paul used outward actions that he expected to have inward results. Sounds like Paul was a sacramentalist after all. And it sounds like God responded to the faith that is demonstrated by laying on of hands. And it sounds like God wants us to recognize that we don't believe or get baptized or receive the Holy Spirit in a God-and-me situation, but in a community context. Another person lays on hands--you can't do it to yourself. That seems to be God's plan

[halifaxchristian]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[halifaxchristian]

Pax...I was a Catholic...and took part in the sacraments.

[Pax]

Pax...I was a Catholic...and took part in the sacraments.  They are vain repitition.  They are useless tradition.  They are distractions.  They are a form of godliness that denies the power thereof.  They are a deception.

For what it's worth...these words come from a young man who knows.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HC,

I have a hard time writing you when you refer to me as the devil and stantic etc... This is was very offensive to me. The more you write, the more I realize that you are a very young man, as you stated above. You have all this zeal to go out and fight against the Catholic Church. When you fight against the Catholic Church it makes you look like you are full of hate and not love. This is not going to draw anyone to your side, but rather it is going to push people away. Look how Fiosh has handeled writing you. Has she done it with hateful remarks and blanket slanderous statements, or has she been compassionate and loving? Why do you think the world loved Pope John Paul II. He didn't go around picking fights with Protestants, Jews, Muslims. He went around the world with open arms expressing his love for all people. Who does that sound like???? I enjoy debating theological points with all people of all faiths. Does this mean I think Protestants are the devil. NO. Does it mean I think you or other evangelicals are all going to hell? NO. I am no better than the biggest sinner on these boards. In fact I may be the biggest sinner on this board.

I believe HC, that you grew up Catholic, but that's all. In name only, you were never taught what the Sacraments mean. The Sacraments don't take ones eyes off Jesus, they bring a person closer to Jesus.

1. Baptism-This Sacrament leaves an indelible mark on ones soul. It is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with CHRIST, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that we too might walk in newness of life.

2. Confirmation-This Sacrament allows one to share more completely in the mission of CHRIST and the fullness of the Holy Spirit, it also leaves and indelible mark on ones soul.

3. Eucharist-This Sacrament is the source and summit of the Christian Life. The Eucharist contains the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely CHRIST himself.

4. Penance or Reconciliation- This Sacrament is called the Sacrament of conversion, Penance, and confession. Christ instituted this Sacrament for all sinful member of the Church who have fallen into grave sin, and have lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. This Sacrament brings us back into communion with CHRIST.

5. The Anointing of the Sick- By the sacred annointing of the sick and the prayer of the priests the whole Church commends those who are ill to the suffering and glorified Lord, that he may raise them up and save them. And indeed she exhorts them to contribute to the good of the People of God by freely uniting themselves to the Passion and death of CHRIST.

6. Holy Orders-This Sacrament through which the mission entrusted by CHRIST to his apostles continues to be exercised in the Church until the end of times: thus it is the Sacrament of apostolic ministry.

7. Matrimony- Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of the wedding feast of the lamb. Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its mystery, its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and is renewal in Lord in the New Convenant of CHRIST and the Church.

HC, these are the seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Explain to me how these Sacraments take away from CHRIST?

[Fiosh]

Passing thought: If I were an agnostic or atheist reading thru this thread I would be hard-pressed to find the love that Christ commanded we Christians should have for each other.

John 13:34 "As I have loved you, so you also should love another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I give you my word, that I believe Jesus is the Son of the Living God. I believe that Jesus is God. I believe that I am saved thru His redeeming sacrifice on the cross. Therefore I am your sister.

You can love me. Or, you can call me a liar.

But please don't call me your sister and then treat me like a pagan.

Sincerely,

Fiosh

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[Fiosh]

Maybe it would help if we define some terms.

I'll post the "Catholic definition". If yours is different, you post yours.

That way we can be sure we are comparing apples to apples.

Let's start with justification----

Justification:  "the gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ"  (Rom 3:22).  Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

By grace we repent of our sins and turn to God (conversion).  In this way we accept the righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.  We are in this way reconciled with God and given the grace to walk in His ways.

Are we agreed?

Love,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to lay down some basic understanding about what we mean when we use certain terms. If this is not your definition of "justification" , could you post yours?

If I could ask your indulgence (little Catholic joke), only the definition at this point.

Thanks,

Fiosh

[Smalcald]

Hi,

I just had a question of fact, not debate

Is the sacrament of reconciliation different from regular confession? Is confession a sacrament?

[Fiosh]

Hi,

I just had a question of fact, not debate

Is the sacrament of reconciliation different from regular confession? Is confession a sacrament?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is the official name for confession to a priest. Catholics also do private confession (the on your knees in your room before God type) Yes, it is a sacrament: an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is despensed to us thru the work of the Holy Spirit."

CCC

G'nite,

Fiosh

[Trust & Obey]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument  we often seem to be arguing two sides to the same coin, or maybe I am simply sweeping two much theology under the rug?

It seems to me that both Catholic and Protestant views agree on some central things here, but I would like correction about my understanding if it is not correct, I am really trying to understand and not to argue a point.

1.) Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

2.) If faith is real, works will follow and be intertwined with this faith.

3.) No one can earn salvation through any effort of their own or their own merit or their own works, but it comes only as a result of what Christ has already done as a gift, grace. 

Do Catholics and Protestants both believe these statements? It seems that they do to me, and the differences come from the role of works after faith or something of that nature.  But I could be wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have a good grasp on things.

Catholics put more of a requirement on works as a part of salvation. Essentially what that does it make salvation Christ, plus my good works... rather than Christ alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics put stress on Faith plus Works and you will here this from any Catholic who knows their faith. You will hear, I am saved by faith alone and absolutly no mention of works when talking to a Protestant. In fact the word "works" is almost a cuss word to any good Protestant, even though it is mention throughtout the Bible. Smalcald, you are right in your assesment. Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ, this would be called works. But this isn't what most Protestant's teach. They teach that once a person has faith in God then they are "sealed" and can't loose their salvation. This idea totally contradicts the Bible where salvation is talked about in past, present, and future tense. This is also why Catholic's don't go around saying I saved, or the Pope is saved etc. Salvation can be lost if a person gets away from God and his teaching. Salvation is a life long process and God knows that we are all going to fall away at times, this is why we have reconciliation. No sin is to be big for God, if one is truely sorry and promises to ammend ones life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, it is up to your performance? Right?

Question: How good do you have to be, Pax?

If it is based upon performance I guess you will never know if you are saved or not... not until you die, anyways. Am I right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's up to God. He knows everyones mind, heart, and soul. You should know how good one should be, it's in scripture (10 commandments), and he Christ instituted a Church to give up guidance and grace (Sacraments). All of these things help us obtain salvation. It is dangerous to assume that one is saved, because then what reason do I have to steer away from sin.....I'm saved anyway. Trust and Obey, you never did comment on what scripture says about "works", I listed several verses that talk about this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pax, I have to say that you are WAY off on your reasoning.

The 10 commandments were not given to show us "how good one should be." The 10 commandments were introduced to show us that were were despicable sinners!

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

That's the exact opposite of "to show us how good we should be."

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good (the law); that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The ten commandments were established to show us how to live our lives and honor God. I'm not sure where you get this idea that God gave us these commandments to show us how bad we all are. Does that sound like something an all knowing, and loving God would do? He gave them to Moses to give guidance so that we could honor, love, and serve the Lord eventually ending up in heaven.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pax, that "idea" came straight from the pen of the apostle Paul in the passages cited above.

It sounds like you're believing what your RCC church is teaching instead of what the Bible says.

Now that you know the RCC and the Bible do not agree on this point... which are you going to believe???