Catholics and Salvation

[Pax]

I think he does take scripture seriously, but his TRADITION of scriptural interpretation downplays this command of Christ.

It has more to do with how theology has developed since 1700 than it does the bible or how the original Christians worshipped.  Now, this particular tradition may be valid I am not knocking it, I don't know for sure. But certainly someone who does not esteem baptism as a command from Christ cannot say that they are holding to the bible alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Smalcald,

You are exactly right. I alway find it interesting how people that profess to only take guidance from the Bible will decide which scriptures to follow and which ones not to follow. How do you think they decide?

[Smalcald]

Hi Pax,

I think they decide based on how they have been instructed in the faith, i.e. their tradition.

For example I think my tradition interprets scripture correctly, but lets face it I was instructed from a young age in how to interpret scripture a particular way. I think it is right, but I also realize that I am looking at scripture through a particular lens of Christian tradition.

If we did not have Christian tradition to help us understand scripture, we would all be handling snakes and drinking poison, as Mark tells us that these signs will follow all believers.

[Trust & Obey]

Hi Aim,

RE:  "call no man father"

This is one instance where it is clear that this in not meant literally.

If you check your Concordance you will find several passages where

father (small "f" ) is used.

Even most Protestants will agree on this one.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fiosh, Jesus is speaking about calling people your "spiritual fathers." We all have a flesh and blood father... God says "honor your father and mother." So, it isn't unbilbical to recognize our fathers according to the flesh. It is only when we refer to someone as "our father" in a spiritual sense, i.e. Catholic Priest/Pope, that this command of Jesus is violated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Trust,

Thanks for the clarification. And of course, God is our ultimate spiritual Father.

When we address the Pope or priests as "father" we are doing so in the way indicated by Paul in I Cor 4: 14-15 "...for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you then, be imitators of me"

Just as Paul is father to the members of the church in Corinth, "through Christ Jesus", and only in subservience and obedience to him, so is the Pope "father" to his church, as a servant of Jesus Christ.

Peace,

Fiosh

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The difference is in the way the RCC uses the term "father." It is most certainly in a spiritual sense, not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church.

Roman Catholicism teaches that the Pope and Priests serve as intermediaries between God and man (Heb 5:1-3). That's what a priest is. A priest is one who represents the people to God, and God to the people. This is why we no longer need priests. We have one faithful high Priest, even Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

The NT lists offices such as "evangelist, pastor, etc." I don't know of any passages that declare we have NT priests, except for this passage which says we are all kings and priests,

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So, I am a priest. You are a priest (or priestess) to God. What on earth do you or I need a priest for when we are priests?

Jesus is the only Mediator.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Priests were OT offices before Christ came. Now that Christ has come he has broken down the wall of separation and now we are able to come directly to God through Christ. Hence, priests in the sense of Catholicism are completely unnecessary and are actually contrary to God's order.

[Fiosh]

How can you be a priest if we have no priests???

[Fiosh]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church???? Whew! I thought Christ "begat" the church????

And, it is obvious from Titus 1:4, that Paul is speaking in a more personal tone than simply to the church as a whole.

Peace,

Sis

[Trust & Obey]

How can you be a priest if we have no priests???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I said was that we don't have any priests that go between God and ourselves. The Bible calls all of us "priests" because we are now able to enter the holy of holies by the blood of Christ. A Catholic priest who presides over a parish has no more authority to approach God than you or I, based upon the finished work of Christ on the cross.

We can come boldly to the throne of grace.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

[Trust & Obey]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church????  Whew!  I thought Christ "begat" the church????

And, it is obvious from Titus 1:4, that Paul is speaking in a more personal tone than simply to the church as a whole.

Peace,

Sis

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are absolutely correct in the "more personal tone" thing. I have "begat" people into the faith through leading them to Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, I am their "father in the faith" in the same way Paul was to the Corinthians.

Catholics call their priests "father" in a spiritual sense.

Fiosh, let me ask you something... your priest that you call "father..." is he the one that shared the gospel with you when you were dead in sins and thus "begat" you into the faith?

Here is another example of Paul using the "begat/begotten" term to refer to one whom he brought into the faith:

Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:

This is not the context that Catholics use the term "father."

[Aim_64bIT]

Smalcald,

You are exactly right.  I alway find it interesting how people that profess to only take guidance from the Bible will decide which scriptures to follow and which ones not to follow.  How do you think they decide?

Just because I say commandment (A) is not essential to salvation does not mean that I think commandment (A) should be omitted.

Matthew 4:4 KJV

(4) But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I think they decide based on how they have been instructed in the faith, i.e. their tradition.

I was brought to God through a King James Bible and a Barnes commentary. I started reading the infallible word God out of historical interest.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

(Isaiah 55:10-11 KJV)

Edited September 7, 2005 by Aim_64bIT

[Smalcald]

Smalcald,

You are exactly right.

[Fiosh]

Trust & Obey said:

"...not in the way Paul is using it to simply refer to himself as the one who "begat" the Corinthian church."

Wow! I'm glad I didn't say that. I'd be cut to ribbons.

He "begat" the church????