Catholics and Salvation

[Pax]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Smalcald]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Assisi]

["A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED, BEFORE [my emphasis]. The Reformation understanding of the NATURE of justification -- as opposed to its mode -- must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological NOVUM."

According to this Christ decieved all Christians about salvation till the 16th Century.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or could it be until the 16th century, the Church didn't quite understand the true nature of Christ???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christ established one Church 2000 years ago and promsed here--

Matthew 28:20

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world Amen."

This is a promise directly from Jesus Christ .

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall, not prevail against it.

If you are correct what happened to this promise by Christ?

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you."

"I will not leave you orphans."

John 14:18

Did Jesus lie here ?

[Pax]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Trust & Obey]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument  we often seem to be arguing two sides to the same coin, or maybe I am simply sweeping two much theology under the rug?

It seems to me that both Catholic and Protestant views agree on some central things here, but I would like correction about my understanding if it is not correct, I am really trying to understand and not to argue a point.

1.) Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

2.) If faith is real, works will follow and be intertwined with this faith.

3.) No one can earn salvation through any effort of their own or their own merit or their own works, but it comes only as a result of what Christ has already done as a gift, grace. 

Do Catholics and Protestants both believe these statements? It seems that they do to me, and the differences come from the role of works after faith or something of that nature.  But I could be wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have a good grasp on things.

Catholics put more of a requirement on works as a part of salvation. Essentially what that does it make salvation Christ, plus my good works... rather than Christ alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics put stress on Faith plus Works and you will here this from any Catholic who knows their faith. You will hear, I am saved by faith alone and absolutly no mention of works when talking to a Protestant. In fact the word "works" is almost a cuss word to any good Protestant, even though it is mention throughtout the Bible. Smalcald, you are right in your assesment. Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ, this would be called works. But this isn't what most Protestant's teach. They teach that once a person has faith in God then they are "sealed" and can't loose their salvation. This idea totally contradicts the Bible where salvation is talked about in past, present, and future tense. This is also why Catholic's don't go around saying I saved, or the Pope is saved etc. Salvation can be lost if a person gets away from God and his teaching. Salvation is a life long process and God knows that we are all going to fall away at times, this is why we have reconciliation. No sin is to be big for God, if one is truely sorry and promises to ammend ones life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, it is up to your performance? Right?

Question: How good do you have to be, Pax?

If it is based upon performance I guess you will never know if you are saved or not... not until you die, anyways. Am I right?

[Trust & Obey]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument  we often seem to be arguing two sides to the same coin, or maybe I am simply sweeping two much theology under the rug?

It seems to me that both Catholic and Protestant views agree on some central things here, but I would like correction about my understanding if it is not correct, I am really trying to understand and not to argue a point.

1.) Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

2.) If faith is real, works will follow and be intertwined with this faith.

3.) No one can earn salvation through any effort of their own or their own merit or their own works, but it comes only as a result of what Christ has already done as a gift, grace. 

Do Catholics and Protestants both believe these statements? It seems that they do to me, and the differences come from the role of works after faith or something of that nature.  But I could be wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have a good grasp on things.

Catholics put more of a requirement on works as a part of salvation. Essentially what that does it make salvation Christ, plus my good works... rather than Christ alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics put stress on Faith plus Works and you will here this from any Catholic who knows their faith. You will hear, I am saved by faith alone and absolutly no mention of works when talking to a Protestant. In fact the word "works" is almost a cuss word to any good Protestant, even though it is mention throughtout the Bible. Smalcald, you are right in your assesment. Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ, this would be called works. But this isn't what most Protestant's teach. They teach that once a person has faith in God then they are "sealed" and can't loose their salvation. This idea totally contradicts the Bible where salvation is talked about in past, present, and future tense. This is also why Catholic's don't go around saying I saved, or the Pope is saved etc. Salvation can be lost if a person gets away from God and his teaching. Salvation is a life long process and God knows that we are all going to fall away at times, this is why we have reconciliation. No sin is to be big for God, if one is truely sorry and promises to ammend ones life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the responses, Trust and Obey and Pax.

I was always taught that faith and works could no more be separated than smoke from fire, which is a quote from Luther.

I think what I am hearing is really interesting, and almost mirrors the debate among Protestants about once saved always saved, which is going on in different threads here. But that is really a different debate than saying we are saved by faith or by works or a combination of both.

It seems what we are really talking about is the nature of faith, not balancing or contradicting faith against works.

For example, Pax you stated:

" Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ; this would be called works. "

I would agree with this, except I would say that the works are fruits of that faith, that indeed faith is the first step, and if it is true, works will flow from that faith. If one claims faith, yet nothing flows from it, that faith is dead, or does not really exist. In some ways I do think we argue about semantics, rather than substance on this issue.

Protestants and Catholics both seem to form caricatures of each other

[Smalcald]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Fiosh]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument

[Trust & Obey]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument  we often seem to be arguing two sides to the same coin, or maybe I am simply sweeping two much theology under the rug?

It seems to me that both Catholic and Protestant views agree on some central things here, but I would like correction about my understanding if it is not correct, I am really trying to understand and not to argue a point.

1.) Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.

2.) If faith is real, works will follow and be intertwined with this faith.

3.) No one can earn salvation through any effort of their own or their own merit or their own works, but it comes only as a result of what Christ has already done as a gift, grace. 

Do Catholics and Protestants both believe these statements? It seems that they do to me, and the differences come from the role of works after faith or something of that nature.  But I could be wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to have a good grasp on things.

Catholics put more of a requirement on works as a part of salvation. Essentially what that does it make salvation Christ, plus my good works... rather than Christ alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Catholics put stress on Faith plus Works and you will here this from any Catholic who knows their faith. You will hear, I am saved by faith alone and absolutly no mention of works when talking to a Protestant. In fact the word "works" is almost a cuss word to any good Protestant, even though it is mention throughtout the Bible. Smalcald, you are right in your assesment. Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ, this would be called works. But this isn't what most Protestant's teach. They teach that once a person has faith in God then they are "sealed" and can't loose their salvation. This idea totally contradicts the Bible where salvation is talked about in past, present, and future tense. This is also why Catholic's don't go around saying I saved, or the Pope is saved etc. Salvation can be lost if a person gets away from God and his teaching. Salvation is a life long process and God knows that we are all going to fall away at times, this is why we have reconciliation. No sin is to be big for God, if one is truely sorry and promises to ammend ones life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the responses, Trust and Obey and Pax.

I was always taught that faith and works could no more be separated than smoke from fire, which is a quote from Luther.

I think what I am hearing is really interesting, and almost mirrors the debate among Protestants about once saved always saved, which is going on in different threads here. But that is really a different debate than saying we are saved by faith or by works or a combination of both.

It seems what we are really talking about is the nature of faith, not balancing or contradicting faith against works.

For example, Pax you stated:

" Having faith in Christ is essential to salvation, but it is only the first step. Then you must live your life for Christ; this would be called works. "

I would agree with this, except I would say that the works are fruits of that faith, that indeed faith is the first step, and if it is true, works will flow from that faith. If one claims faith, yet nothing flows from it, that faith is dead, or does not really exist. In some ways I do think we argue about semantics, rather than substance on this issue.

Protestants and Catholics both seem to form caricatures of each other

[Fiosh]

Boy, I apologize because I am not following the conversation; maybe I am just a lazy thinker

But it seems in the faith versus works argument