Retrobyter Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted November 20, 2021 10 hours ago, wingnut- said: Hey brother, Just a bit surprised by this statement so I have to ask, forgive me if this is redundant. Considering none of the ECF's believed in a future fulfillment of this prophecy, doesn't that by process of elimination lead to the only conclusion being that they "knew" it had already happened? Shabbat shalom, wingnut-. Thanks for the question, but I'm not convinced that they didn't "know it had already happened." To the contrary, they write in their epistles as though it was still something to be seen in the future! Now, they may have hoped that it would happen in their own future, but they tempered that with trust in God's timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Retrobyter said: Shabbat shalom, wingnut-. Thanks for the question, but I'm not convinced that they didn't "know it had already happened." To the contrary, they write in their epistles as though it was still something to be seen in the future! Now, they may have hoped that it would happen in their own future, but they tempered that with trust in God's timing. Thanks for clarifying, I thought when you said ECF you were referring to those that followed the apostles, not the writers themselves. I also just realized this was not the thread I thought it was, so my apologies to the OP because I most likely am off topic. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 10 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello Diaste, By my little parable, I was merely showing how the foregoing preterist take on II Thessalonians 2 was too straitjacketed---at least IMHO. Also, my last sentence was very much an intentional understatement, written tongue in cheek. I cannot put pen to paper (or fingers to keys) and articulate a sentence that would do justice to the difference of concern there is (or should be) over what the work ethic of some of the Thessalonians was compared to the coming of Christ that Paul spoke to. Similar to the difference of concern over what is on the Thanksgiving menu of a certain military platoon (which concerns only them and possibly a handful of others) and the news that a nuclear exchange is at hand (which concerns some 7.9 billion people---you and I included). Sure. 2 Thess 2 was clearly written to 'adelphos' not just the group in Thessalonica. I find the idea that the translation, 'you, aldephos' is limited to small group in specific region ignores even the most basic definition of the Greek and actively shuns Paul's teaching on the overall concept. A perilous position, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 Let's not let acrimony rule the responses here. There is much to gain from open discussion and nothing to be had from getting yet another thread locked away in oblivion. Blessings to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 As a reminder this thread is about whether "sits in the Temple" is a Temple of flesh or a Temple of stone, or as some assert, just a sacred location; and whether or not a stone Temple will stand again, should "sits in the Temple" be found to be a physical construction. I'm convinced it's clear it's an edifice. Possibly a sacred location in lieu of a physical temple could be the manifestation of this prophetic utterance but I'm not so sure. The 2nd Coming of Christ is the context established for the when of the 3rd Temple, not the subject of the thread. "sits in the Temple proclaiming goodhood" must happen around the time of "Concerning the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" as the one must happen before the other and both in the sight of the living adelphos. This is the focal point and clearly shows neither have yet occurred. Ergo, 'sits in the Temple' does not equate to the 1st century and there must be a Temple at another point in history future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 20, 2021 11 hours ago, wingnut- said: Thanks for clarifying, I thought when you said ECF you were referring to those that followed the apostles, not the writers themselves. I also just realized this was not the thread I thought it was, so my apologies to the OP because I most likely am off topic. God bless What's ECF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AandW_Rootbeer Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 586 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 167 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Diaste said: What's ECF? Early Church Fathers, maybe? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2021 31 minutes ago, Diaste said: What's ECF? I assumed he meant early church fathers, which I don't usually count the apostles themselves as typically one would just say the apostles, but in this case it appears that is whom he was referring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AandW_Rootbeer Posted November 20, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 586 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 167 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted November 20, 2021 On 11/16/2021 at 7:46 AM, Retrobyter said: At no time in early history A.D. do we have ECFs telling us that this indeed happened in their lifetimes. It's "open-ended" because, not having been fulfilled, and believing that the prophecies must be fulfilled as God's Word never fails, then this prophecy passes on to the next generation, and has done so up to the current generation. He was NOT saying that it would definitely happen in their own lifetimes! I can help, I think...LOL I consider EFC's to be the Disciples of the Apostles like Mark to Peter, Papias and Polycarp to John the Beloved. Here is a letter to the Philippines from an EFC, Polycarp. From the 2nd Chapter: Chapter 2 Therefore, prepare yourselves for the race and serve the Lord in fear and truth like people who have forsaken the useless, empty talk and the errors of the multitude and believed in the One who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead and gave him glory and a throne at his right hand. All things in heaven and on earth are subject to him. Every spirit serves him. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. God will require justice for his blood from those who do not believe in Him. ^ Notice the 2nd Paragraph, specifically the "Third and Fourth Sentences" He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. God will require justice for his blood from those who do not believe in Him. This Letter is after the Death of the Apostle John 108 A.D. and Polycarp makes it clear they are [Still Waiting] for Christ's Return. Clearly, no other Returns had taken place since His Ascension!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted November 21, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted November 21, 2021 On 11/20/2021 at 12:08 PM, Diaste said: What's ECF? Shalom, Diaste. To confirm, yes, I did include ALL who came after the Messiah Yeshua` ascended to be the "early church fathers," because ... well ... they were! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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