ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The phrase in blue is an exact quotation from, and reference to, Genesis 48:19 "...his [Ephraim's] posterity shall be(come) the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles."

Romans 11:25 ...that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness (or, fulfillment) of the Gentiles has come in.

 

 

What translation is that ? - Gen.48: 19 for my NKJ says - `and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.`

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes! The words of the prophet(s) are true but they are not to be Judaized. What does the New Testament say about those promises? Start with this: 

 

Romans 15:4
"For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." 

1 Corinthians 10:1-11
"For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.  Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness............ Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

 

What does the New Testament say about the Zechariah two verses that were quoted?
 

I thought I`d say a bit more.

Now I don`t know if you realize how it seems you are presenting this thought. It seems to me you are saying, (please correct me if I am mistaken), that God only created and worked with the people of Israel FOR OUR INSTRUCTION.

I know you didn`t actually say that, but that is how it comes over when you just present `for our instruction,` and not God`s purpose for Israel as well. It is like presenting half of the picture, half of the truth.

Hope you don`t mean that.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

What does the New Testament itself say about Zec. 12:9-10? 

Hi Josheb,

`It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; and will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieves for Him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 9 & 10)

`...Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.......Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when you see these thing begin to happen, lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.` (Luke 21: 24 - 28) 

[angels4u]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Josheb,

`It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; and will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieves for Him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 9 & 10)

`...Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.......Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when you see these thing begin to happen, lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.` (Luke 21: 24 - 28) 

Yep Marilyn ,that will happen in the and of the Tribulation and then we're going into the Millenial 1000 years ,I believe that's why God told us to pray for Jerusalem ,He alone know how bad those days before Jesus will come back will be,Israel need our prayers ( and so do other people in the world) 

[angels4u]

Luke 21:24-28

New King James Version

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

This will happen in the Tribulation.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

Okay, let's go with Luke 21:24-28. When does Jesus say this will happen?  Who is it Jesus says will experience it and/or see it? 

Any other New Testament verses where Zechariah is quoted or otherwise referenced? 

We know that Jesus was talking about AD 70 Jerusalem surrounded and then Jews fleeing and led away captive into all nations. (Luke 21: 20 - 24 a)

Then in the last part of Luke 21: 24 we see that Jerusalem will be trampled till the times of the Gentiles (ruling the world) is finished. We are then told of signs in sun and moon etc and mankind seeing the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Then Jesus says to the people of Israel that `they` (those in Israel in the future) `When these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because YOUR redemption draws near.` (Luke 21: 28)

Important to note the `they` and `your,` to whom the Lord is referring to - Gentiles and Jews.

Then another reference that we know is in relation to Zech. 12: 9 & 10, is in Rev. 1: 7.

`Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him.` 

The two groups again - Gentiles and Jews.

And I think that reference is what you were referring to, Josh. 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Let' clarify that a bit because what Jesus sates in verse 28 immediately follows what he's just been describing and that is explicitly couched in the armies surrounding Jerusalem. The only other marker is the times of the Gentiles fulfilled. There is nothing between verse 20 and verses 27 and 28 indicating Jesus has shifted to some far-distant time. Let's look at the text, 

 

Luke 21:20-28
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.  Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.  Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the cloud with power and great glory.  But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

 

So the timeline is 1) the armies surround Jerusalem, the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, a bunch of signs and "they" will see. You just said the "they" is Israel in the future and that is true but it is his current Jewish audience's future, not ours. Jesus explicitly states their redemption is drawing near (literally = at hand). Jerusalem has already been surrounded by armies and demolished. God never uses the word "near" to mean anything other than near, or close in time or space. Look it up. Do the word search. Furthermore, Romans 11, as I have already pointed out, occurs "at the present time," in which Paul was writing. Paul even uses past-tense language when he speaks about the hardening of Israel's heart relevant to the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. 

 

 

Hi Josheb,

I think you missed out an important detail -

`the powers of the heaven will be shaken...` (Luke 21: 26)

Compare that with Joel 3: 15 & 16.

`The sun and moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake....` 

And that is at the end of the trib, when the Lord comes to deliver Israel.

As to the word `near,` it is always in relation to the context of the event.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Those who pierced Jesus are all long dead. Either Jeremiah (and later John) is talking about events occurring during the lifetime of those who crucified Jesus or sometime after they are resurrected and when the murderers of Jesus are raised it's at the Judgment Day, not before the millennium. 

 

It refers to the `nation of Israel,` not individual people, for the people of Israel did NOT pierce the Lord, it was the Romans. It is signifying that Israel had Jesus crucified.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Let' clarify that a bit because what Jesus sates in verse 28 immediately follows what he's just been describing and that is explicitly couched in the armies surrounding Jerusalem. The only other marker is the times of the Gentiles fulfilled. There is nothing between verse 20 and verses 27 and 28 indicating Jesus has shifted to some far-distant time. Let's look at the text, 

 

Luke 21:20-28
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.  Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.  Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.  

 

 

So who is still trampling Jerusalem? The Gentiles. Thus that scripture has as yet NOT been fulfilled.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Josheb,

Yes sorry I assumed that you missed something. That`s fine to keep it on the scriptures. Now I ask you the same thing for you wrote a list of things you assumed I was doing and did NOT quote me so I/we can see what you are saying is true or not.

So are you saying that Joel 3 has already happened?

Also do you mean Luke 21 not 17?