ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

I disagree. 

Christ rules all. He always has and always will. His incarnation and resurrection were simply historical events from our perspective that from God's were always fait accompli. 

Before I address the promise of the OT saints  and Israel I'd like to ask a few questions so I don't confuse you with others or assume things erroneously. 

 

• Are you someone who looked for a restoration of Israel? (whether it has already occurred or yet to occur)
• Are you looking forward to an earthly reign by Jesus in which he's sitting here on earth on an earthly throne ruling the earth from the earth? 
• Are you looking forward to a return on the Levitical priesthood? (whether it has already begun or yet to occur)
• Are you looking for a return of animal sacrifices? (whether it has already begun or yet to occur) 
• Are you looking forward to another temple being built?
• Are you looking for Israel to be brought to a soteriological faith in Christ?

Hi Josheb,

I agree Christ rules over all - past, present and future. So thank you for wanting clarification as we proceed.

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. No but priests from all Israel ans Levites.

4. Yes but for a different purpose. 

5. Yes for Israel.

6. Salvation through Christ but not in the Body of Christ.

[Alive]

24 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Christ rules all. He always has and always will. His incarnation and resurrection were simply historical events from our perspective that from God's were always fait accompli. 

Yes…IMO and estimation, without this conviction, it is easy to go astray in many areas.

There have been a number of conversations on this point in recent months, without consensus. This reality, makes for disagreement on other issues likely, and near inevitable. 

Without an agreement on this, we repeat a ping pong game.

I pray and hope headway can be realized and that light is shed.

 

[AdHoc]

50 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

It is so, so refreshing talking to you bro. I so agree with most of what you say, with a hearty `Amen.` Well put I might add.

So let me put my question regarding the `unity of Faith,` another way. We know that the Apostle Paul taught the whole counsel of God, but said that after he was gone savage wolves would come in and also come up from among the believers. And through out the many succeeding centuries we can see that bit by bit the main truths were `lost.` (Obviously some believers held true, but the outward form of Christendom became `religious.`)

Then at the reformation and from then on we see that great truths were clarified to the Body of Christ, starting with - salvation by faith in Christ. 

Can you now think of other great truths the Holy Spirit has guided the believers in over the years till we today, I would say have all the counsel of God concerning Christ, His character and His purposes?

 What other great truths....?

Also would like to pick up on your comment regarding our reward. Can you give further detail with scripture please?

Marilyn.

My, you have quite some perception. It would seem from John's writings especially that great truths were already being lost by 100 AD. But I think the great damage was done in 313 AD when Constantine made Christianity a State religion. The mingling of heathen Roman Empire with an already weakened Church "leavened the whole lump".

The Reformation was of God. But the battle was over a few grand truths - which you have mentioned. We can all thank Luther and company for their devotedness, and thank the Lord that there was enough opposition to shake the Holy Roman Empire. But 1,000 years of "leaven" is not eradicated in a day. The courage of the reformers is not called into question, but they mainly concentrated on getting out from under the POLITICAL stranglehold of Rome. The Church of England, for instance, kept all the trappings of the Roman Church but just changed, or exchanged the British Sovereign for the Pope. This led to Cromwell and his attempts to make a Christian State - a hopeless failure because it is not given to the Christians to rule UNTIL Jesus does.

But on to your question. In my opinion, there are three grand truths that have been recovered since the Reformation recovery of salvation by faith. They are;

The return of Christ, as Heir and King of the creation He made, to set up an everlasting Kingdom on earth.

The return of Christ, Son of David, to establish Israel as leading Nation by resurrecting and gathering every physical "seed of Abraham" to their Land with the borders as given in Ezekiel, and with Jerusalem as His Host City

That the sanctification of a Christian is accomplished by Christ DWELLING IN US - not by outside influence. This includes the Second Person of the Godhead going through the whole spectrum of human life, death and resurrection in perfection, and then returning to the Christian as the Spirit which contains this glory (Jn.7:39). That is, Romans 8:29 is only accomplished by an active but submissive relationship of the Christian with Christ in the human spirit.

Now, because the Lord always has His People (the principle of a Remnant), I would do injustice to men by naming any one man or group as responsible for recovering these grand truths. But it would seem that the so-called Plymouth Brethren of the early 1800's had a big hand in this. But the Lord always has His "policemen" and outside the Brethren were some very notable men correcting the Brethren (not that it always worked). However, like any Assembly of fallen men, the recovery of truths that the Brethren recorded was soon marred by internal strife. 

As to the third grand truth above, that of an active and intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus, I cannot name its beginning. Notable were Madam Guyon and Andrew Murray of South Africa. But no doubt the Lord always had His lovers. Suffice to say, that this grand truth is not widely held. Men like "fig leaves" and so most pious men end up making rules. But rules just condemn. What is necessary is an hourly, daily, intimate dialogue with the indwelling Jesus. Colossians reveals this. "We are complete in Him". That is, all the resources we need for a practical but transformed Christian life are found in Christ's Person. I do not discount His Word by this. He IS THE WORD - the Word made Flesh for adding the whole human experience to Divinity and then inserting Himself into believers to sanctify them. 

"Christ IN you - the hope of glory"

It's 01:15 in the morning here. I'm off to nest. Nice talking to you. I don't think we are finished because I haven't heard your position yet.

[AdHoc]

44 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Three questions: 

Is there a scriptural standard to which you can point to support that limited view? 

How is the unity of faith not something all local assemblies should have in common with other local assemblies? 

Why are Unity, Local, and Assembly capitalized? 

 

I can think of at least two passages in which unity among all local congregations or assemblies is asserted: Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 11. I can probably cite several that are implicit. How do you reconcile this seeming difference between the claim unity of faith is local and not global?

Hi Brother,

It is 01:15 here in Central Europe and I'm going to turn in. I will be brief and, God willing, I will answer you more thoroughly tomorrow. Your questions are valid. Thank you for your understanding.

First, I CAPITALIZE just for emphasis. It is grammatically inelegant. If you don't like it, I'll try to remember, but its habit and I can't promise. To your questions...

1. Nearly no Bible student denies that our Lord has, as His members, all Christians worldwide. But the Lord, while revealing His "Church" (singular), has decided that because it must be a "gathering", He has set the boundaries of its gathering as one city or town. That does not mean that there can be smaller gatherings, like in somebody's house, but there is no name given to a Church but ties to its city or town.

The present situation in Christianity with its "denominations" and "divisions within denominations" is a work of the flesh (1st Corinthians Chapters 1 and 3.). I'm not so naive to think that we can change this, but this is how the Lord wanted it.

2. The western perception of Christianity is very much influenced by the United States of America. It is one great country with a great constitution and a world leader in technology. But the Church is designed not for this only. The Church is, by its very nature, in enemy territory. And so it is designed to function on a snow-covered slope in Siberia as well a secret cellar in a house in Beijing. American worship done in Siberia would bring the authorities running and a scattering of the Church would follow. Just owning a Bible in China is already enough to get trouble if it is not a State approved edition. The Bible foresees this, and the Local Church must be ready to operate in secret under extreme persecution. Only a local Church, in the houses of a town or city, will work - as the Cultural Revolution in China showed.

3. It would be nice if the "unity of the faith" could be universal. The Roman Church almost achieved it and Islam is trying hard. But it is only had, not by inspired teachers and humility - but by the whip. God has designed man, and the Church to start as a seed and grow. Every Christian, and every Local Assembly is at a different stage of growth and truths. The very letters of the New Testament testify of this. They also testify that the problems can vary. I will agree that every problem mentioned in the New Testament, sooner or later, reaches all Churches and all Christians. But they happen at different times and under different circumstances. To expect a local meeting of Dallas Theological students to have the same "unity of the faith" as in a local African village which has just heard the gospel is not practical.

I hope that addressed some of your questions. If I've missed something, we can pick up later today (tomorrow for you).

Go well and God bless.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

My, you have quite some perception. It would seem from John's writings especially that great truths were already being lost by 100 AD. But I think the great damage was done in 313 AD when Constantine made Christianity a State religion. The mingling of heathen Roman Empire with an already weakened Church "leavened the whole lump".

The Reformation was of God. But the battle was over a few grand truths - which you have mentioned. We can all thank Luther and company for their devotedness, and thank the Lord that there was enough opposition to shake the Holy Roman Empire. But 1,000 years of "leaven" is not eradicated in a day. The courage of the reformers is not called into question, but they mainly concentrated on getting out from under the POLITICAL stranglehold of Rome. The Church of England, for instance, kept all the trappings of the Roman Church but just changed, or exchanged the British Sovereign for the Pope. This led to Cromwell and his attempts to make a Christian State - a hopeless failure because it is not given to the Christians to rule UNTIL Jesus does.

But on to your question. In my opinion, there are three grand truths that have been recovered since the Reformation recovery of salvation by faith. They are;

The return of Christ, as Heir and King of the creation He made, to set up an everlasting Kingdom on earth.

The return of Christ, Son of David, to establish Israel as leading Nation by resurrecting and gathering every physical "seed of Abraham" to their Land with the borders as given in Ezekiel, and with Jerusalem as His Host City

That the sanctification of a Christian is accomplished by Christ DWELLING IN US - not by outside influence. This includes the Second Person of the Godhead going through the whole spectrum of human life, death and resurrection in perfection, and then returning to the Christian as the Spirit which contains this glory (Jn.7:39). That is, Romans 8:29 is only accomplished by an active but submissive relationship of the Christian with Christ in the human spirit.

Now, because the Lord always has His People (the principle of a Remnant), I would do injustice to men by naming any one man or group as responsible for recovering these grand truths. But it would seem that the so-called Plymouth Brethren of the early 1800's had a big hand in this. But the Lord always has His "policemen" and outside the Brethren were some very notable men correcting the Brethren (not that it always worked). However, like any Assembly of fallen men, the recovery of truths that the Brethren recorded was soon marred by internal strife. 

As to the third grand truth above, that of an active and intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus, I cannot name its beginning. Notable were Madam Guyon and Andrew Murray of South Africa. But no doubt the Lord always had His lovers. Suffice to say, that this grand truth is not widely held. Men like "fig leaves" and so most pious men end up making rules. But rules just condemn. What is necessary is an hourly, daily, intimate dialogue with the indwelling Jesus. Colossians reveals this. "We are complete in Him". That is, all the resources we need for a practical but transformed Christian life are found in Christ's Person. I do not discount His Word by this. He IS THE WORD - the Word made Flesh for adding the whole human experience to Divinity and then inserting Himself into believers to sanctify them. 

"Christ IN you - the hope of glory"

It's 01:15 in the morning here. I'm off to nest. Nice talking to you. I don't think we are finished because I haven't heard your position yet.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Great, some good points there. I agree concerning the Reformation, as on some truths, and the recovery of truth has taken quite many centuries. Also appreciated the writings of those you mentioned in bringing to light our personal walk with the Lord. 

So as we seem to agree, may I now post a summary of my thoughts, (& also was taught).

The Apostle Paul gave the early disciples the whole counsel of God. They were taught the full revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.

`For I (Paul) have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27)

Here is a summary of the main truths, then the errors that came in and finally the restoring of those truths through the centuries.

1.     Ministry gifts (Eph. 4: 11) - Bishops were substituted. (AD 110)

2.     Holy Spirit infilling and gifts - Formalisation of worship. (3rd C)

3.     Holiness - Amalgamation of Church and State. (AD 323)

4.     Baptism for believers - Infant Sprinkling. (6th C)

5.     Justification by Faith - Penance Indulgence. (AD 1063 / Dark Ages)

6.     Reformation, Lutheran - Justification by Faith. (1517)

7.     Baptist - Full Immersion. (1608)

8.     Methodist - Holiness. (1738)

9.     Pentecostal - Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (1906)

10.   Apostolic - Christ`s ministries (Eph. 4: 11) (1916) & the Eternal Purposes.

Christ`s ministries, (apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist) develop the believers and the whole Body into spiritual maturity and understanding. They stimulate the perfecting of the `Christ life` and promote the function and ministry of each member in the Body.

The Holy Spirit has also been clarifying much truth in the past century especially after WW 2. I will go and look for the details I`ve written down.

 

 

[Marilyn C]

Along with the restoration of truths to the Body of Christ, there has been much error and Church splitting over some aspects of doctrine.

 

In the middle of the 19th century the Holy Spirit accelerated His wonderful movements across the Body of Christ. Previously Holy Spirit movements were in a few areas however now the Holy Spirit moved across denominations, overflowing every barrier of man. It was the beginning of the restoration of the truth of the five ministry gifts of Christ to His Body.  

 

Evangelist. (`50`s)People like Billy Graham travelled the world speaking to hundreds of thousands of people drawing them to Christ.

 

Charismatic renewal. (`60`s) The infilling of the Holy Spirit was experienced by ministers, and believers right across the Body. The Full Gospel Business men`s meetings played a big part in bringing believers of all denominations together.

 

Shepherd/Pastor.(`70`s) There was a big move of the Holy Spirit among the hippies in the `70`s. As they came to know Christ a shepherding movement took place to guide the new believers in their walk with the Lord.

 

Teacher. (`80`s) Next we see the Holy Spirit raise up great teachers, like Derek Prince, who travelled the world teaching the believers the word of God. Radio programs, tapes and books were all used to help believers receive good teaching.

 

Prophet. (`90`s) Although prophecy had been received the revelation of the office of the Prophet was new to most believers. The Prophetic Office brings direction to the Body concerning the purposes of Christ. 

 

Apostle. (2000) This office is the most controversial of the ministry gifts and least understood. However it is essential, with the others, to bring the Body to maturity in Christ. The Apostle brings forth the character of Christ.

 

With the recognition of these ministries there has also been much false teaching and wrong prophecies. Sadly many people are prophesying out of their imagination and not of the Lord. And the Apostolic office is wrongly looked to as a great CEO of an organisation.  

However the Lord, the Head of His Body is completing His wonderful work of maturing His Body into the unity of the faith. All these truths have been clarified and it is personally up to us to make sure we `hold fast to the Head` and not to man. (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Regarding #4: what "different purpose"? 

Hi Josheb,

A big topic there. Still it does have some relation to the main topic. So it seems we both agree on the Body of Christ coming to maturity in Christ. That puts that purpose in the time between Christ`s ascension & sending His Holy Spirit till the catching away of the mature Body to its eternal setting in glory.

So to your question which involves both as I have now changed my previous answer somewhat.

• Are you looking forward to a return on the Levitical priesthood? (whether it has already begun or yet to occur)
• Are you looking for a return of animal sacrifices? (whether it has already begun or yet to occur) 

From scripture we know that the nation of Israel, an earthly nation has been promised to rule the nations of the world. (Dan. 7: 27) Thus when the Lord comes and delivers Israel from Gentile rulership He will set up His rule through Israel over the nations that are left after the Trib, and who looked after the Jews. (Matt. 25: 31 - 46)

Now Israel will still be an earthly nation, but who has received their Messiah. (Zech. 12: 10). Thus it will be a time of the nations coming under the rule of the Lord through Israel. There will be a king regent, a man called David, (Jer. 30: 9  &  Ez. 37: 24) and priests anointed. (Isa. 66: 21)

Mankind will still be sinful and carnal, but will be ruled with a `rod of iron,` meaning consequences for rebellion. (Zech. 14: 16 - 19) People will learn the ways of the Lord and go up to Jerusalem to worship and learn. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)

This learning time involves keeping the Lord`s Feast days, (Ez. 45: 17) People will need to learn the difference between the holy and unholy, to keep God`s laws, His statutes in all God`s appointed meetings and to hallow His Sabbaths.` (Ez. 44: 23 & 24) And it will be the priests and Levites who will do this.(Ez. 44: 15)

Learning all this in a sinful world involves the sacrificial offerings. 

Note: as the Body of Christ will be gone there is no more opportunity for people to seek the Lord as Saviour & Lord. That purpose will be finished.

The earthly people are not brought into a Body of Christ, but remain as individuals in their nations. They are earthly and as such must obey God and walk in His ways if they desire to receive their inheritance ON the earth in eternity.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Josheb said:

Thanks. Get some sleep. That's a post worthy of discussion but much of it is unrelated to this op. I will simply say this in response: 

 

Ephesians 4 tells us Christ has supplied those called out by God with certain leaders and the passage lists very specific goals regarding their provision and one of those goals is unity. It's not a goal solely for the local congregation in Ephesus; it's a goal for the body of Christ. 

 

Ephesians 4:11-16
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,  for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;  until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;  but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,  from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

 

AND.... this standard exists within the co-existing condition of diversity. Unity and diversity upheld simultaneously in different ways. It can cause some a modicum of confusion. 

Unity of faith is not limited to a local assembly. 

Just saying.

Thanks for the answer. I am the first to agree with you. The "unity of the faith" is no doubt for all Christians. That is God's goal.

But practically, how is this achieved. In 64 AD we have an Apostle. He is incarcerated in Rome at the pleasure of Caesar. He is highly trained and the Holy Spirit is with him. He has all the gifts. He is willing and courageous. He can put up with the rigors of walking across Asia. On this Lord's Day, he feels moved by the Spirit to teach Baptism. But he is bound. What good is this asset to the Church in Laodicea - this Lord's Day, or any Lord's day?

Conversely, we have case of incest in the Church in Dublin. John is an Elder in Perth, Australia. We have instructions in Matthew 18 and 1st Corinthians 5 how the Lord wants it dealt with. In what way will John of Perth, Australia have anything to do with the Assembly in Dublin, Ireland. The instruction inspired by the Holy Spirit say; "When you are gathered ... ", do this and do that. How will John of Perth fulfill this?

I would say that teaching and Church government are a local matter. Many Christians are taught that we go to Church to worship. But our Lord Jesus says that we do not worship in any place anymore, but in our human spirits (Jn.4:23-24). We meet to be built up by the Lord supplying the gifted ones and the gifted ones in turn, supplying those next to them. Thus, Ephesians 4:15-16 says; 

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Edification can only occur locally where the "joints" are "joined" physically.

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Along with the restoration of truths to the Body of Christ, there has been much error and Church splitting over some aspects of doctrine.

 

In the middle of the 19th century the Holy Spirit accelerated His wonderful movements across the Body of Christ. Previously Holy Spirit movements were in a few areas however now the Holy Spirit moved across denominations, overflowing every barrier of man. It was the beginning of the restoration of the truth of the five ministry gifts of Christ to His Body.  

 

Evangelist. (`50`s)People like Billy Graham travelled the world speaking to hundreds of thousands of people drawing them to Christ.

 

Charismatic renewal. (`60`s) The infilling of the Holy Spirit was experienced by ministers, and believers right across the Body. The Full Gospel Business men`s meetings played a big part in bringing believers of all denominations together.

 

Shepherd/Pastor.(`70`s) There was a big move of the Holy Spirit among the hippies in the `70`s. As they came to know Christ a shepherding movement took place to guide the new believers in their walk with the Lord.

 

Teacher. (`80`s) Next we see the Holy Spirit raise up great teachers, like Derek Prince, who travelled the world teaching the believers the word of God. Radio programs, tapes and books were all used to help believers receive good teaching.

 

Prophet. (`90`s) Although prophecy had been received the revelation of the office of the Prophet was new to most believers. The Prophetic Office brings direction to the Body concerning the purposes of Christ. 

 

Apostle. (2000) This office is the most controversial of the ministry gifts and least understood. However it is essential, with the others, to bring the Body to maturity in Christ. The Apostle brings forth the character of Christ.

 

With the recognition of these ministries there has also been much false teaching and wrong prophecies. Sadly many people are prophesying out of their imagination and not of the Lord. And the Apostolic office is wrongly looked to as a great CEO of an organisation.  

However the Lord, the Head of His Body is completing His wonderful work of maturing His Body into the unity of the faith. All these truths have been clarified and it is personally up to us to make sure we `hold fast to the Head` and not to man. (Col. 2: 18 & 19)

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your input. The line of people and events that you have traced surely existed, and had their effect. We could add many more, but it is enough that God never lets go of the Church and that God never forgets.

I couldn't resist though to address the matter of Apostle. It is clear that this is controversial. There is a reason. The Greek word for "apostles" means "the sent one". So anyone sent by a Church, or sent by God, could legally be called an Apostle.  But the moment authority is attached to the sent one, it becomes an OFFICE. The twelve are sent to the circumcision, but the twelve will sit on twelve thrones judging Israel in the Millennium. That is a matter of Government. This Office of Apostle is so important that Judas' empty place must be filled (Act.1). 

And with the Office of Apostle came great authority. And here lies the controversy. Anyone can be a "sent one", but to whose authority shall we bow? What and if a brother claims the Office of Apostle? Well, the Lord does not leave us defenseless. In Revelation 2:2 we learn; 

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

What then??? Who can challenge the mighty Apostle's Office??? Why - the Church! In Matthew 18 the Holy Spirit lays forth the path of Government in the Church. The Church, not the Elders, not the Pastors and not the Apostles have the "keys to the Kingdom". In both Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 the keys are given to the Assembly. So it was in Israel too. If a man or woman broke the Law it was the witness who threw the first stone "without pity" and then the whole village stoned the culprit. The Lord commends the Church for "TRYING" men who called themselves Apostles. HOW?

Paul says in 2nd Corinthians 12:12; 

Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

And the other Apostles who were trained by Christ, laid forth the following requirements in Acts 1:21-22;

21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

An Apostle must fulfill the following criteria;

1. Many signs and wonders and mighty deeds
2. He must have been personally trained by the Lord
3. He must have witnessed the alive body of Jesus after His death

When a man comes into the Assembly and claims the Office of Apostle, the congregation can relax. They will quietly tell him that he has to prove himself by the above, otherwise he is to be treated as a "LIAR". (And perhaps reminded what happened to Ananias and Saphira for lying to the Church!)

See if you can find out how Paul met these requirements?

 

[AdHoc]

35 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I appreciate the clarification. 

 

Let me give you a real-life example and get your pov on it. 

Several years ago, when my now-grown children were teens, my wife and I decided to find a congregation that had a youth group because the one we were at had none. So I went "church-shopping". When we visited a congregation we thought might meet our need and provide us an opportunity to contribute I gathered the statements of faith and/or by-laws and whatever other literature that might have telling me more about them. As the search narrowed I would take time out to listen to sermons online and investigate the backgrounds of the congregations leaders. I also et with pastors of elders from these congregations - ten of them in total before finding a place we'd eventually call home. 

On one occasion I noted the by-laws required every member of that congregation to agree to and adhere to Dispensational Premillennialism. I happen to be a partial-preterist Amillennialist. I met with the head pastor of that congregation to discuss the prospect of our joining and get some clarification and better understanding of a few matters besides their eschatology. I asked about that requirement, informing him of my point of view and fairly well-informed knowledge of all eschatological povs. I also asked if he was aware that one single requirement would prevent some of the most devout believers and some of the most amazing minds in Christendom from becoming members of that congregation. That one requirement would prevent Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley, Spurgeon, Warfield, Schaeffer, Sproul, and many others from every becoming members of that congregation. That one requirement ends up being exclusionary. He concluded by saying I would probably be allowed to join as long as I did not ever preach any position but the one to which they held. 

That would be local unity of a sorts. 

 

Thoughts?

Thanks for sharing that. You handled that very maturely - more maturely I'd say, than the "Head Pastor". 

My first comment is that if you had found an Assembly that would lead to your, and your family's growth, and you were prepared to take a restriction because of it, that is, in my mind, the essence of the first verses of Ephesians 4. You backed off for the sake of being one. You never gave up your position but were able to "shelve it" for good.

My second comment is that that "Head Pastor", if he holds a position and makes it a base for fellowship, should be able to defend it - even if it is in private. Secondly, by forbidding you, he robbed his flock's chance at learning something. According to 1st Corinthians 6 the weakest of the saints should be put in the seat to judge Church matters. This is because they are to be trained to rule even angels one day.

That head pastor, most probably unwittingly, was not dong his job. The job of an Elder (I'm happy to leave the unbiblical term "Head Pastor" when it doesn't refer to Christ), is to create the necessary atmosphere for the flock to learn. What better way than by setting aside an evening or two, where, in an atmosphere of order, each proponent may state his case?

Education is not to be brain-washed with one idea. Education is when one is faced with all the ideas and you have worked through them all. There is a danger that for a time, one will go down a wrong road. But the Lord knows the hearts of His People. He will not forever leave one ignorant. 

Thanks for swapping ideas.