ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

[Marilyn C]

ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

 

I disagree -

1.     That would make God partial only allowing a certain number of Gentiles to come into the Body of Christ.

2.     This view does not agree with all of God`s word on this topic.

3.     This error is based on a wrong interpretation of a single scripture.

 

`For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11: 25)  

 

So what is the truth? What scriptures reveal to us God`s completeness of the Body of Christ?

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11: 25)

The word `fullness,` in Gk, is `pleroma,` meaning completeness.

So what makes the Body of Christ complete, to finish?

[Hands On]

I believe we must leave the "completeness" concept to for Christ to decide.How this will pan out so to speak is beyond our limited comprehension.That no one will be left out, regardless of Jew or Gentile is dependent on God's mercy and grace .I believe Peter's advice here involves all who accept Christ as their saviour and conduct themselves accordingly and make sure that our "documentation " is always ready when that "Heavenly Ship" does leave  port with all "all those saved".We know that God is patient with all because ":8  But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same. 
9  The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins."(Good News Bible 2Pt.3:8-9)

We also know that this "Heavenly Super Tanker" can take an unlimited amount of passenger because "Is anything too hard for the Lord?"(N.I.V.Gen 18:14a).

Unfortunately the following folks will be excluded and not qualify for boarding passes on that unkown date of departure , as Christ clearly puts it through John as written for all to read, to accept or reject. ":11  Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sits on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and were seen no more. 
12  And I saw the dead, great and small alike, standing before the throne. Books were opened, and then another book was opened, the book of the living. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 
13  Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held. And all were judged according to what they had done. 
14  Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.) 
15  Those who did not have their name written in the book of the living were thrown into the lake of fire. "(Good News Bible Rev.20:11-15)

[WilliamL]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So what makes the Body of Christ complete, to finish?

Acts 3:19 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing/revival may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Edited November 7, 2021 by WilliamL

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Hands On said:

I believe we must leave the "completeness" concept to for Christ to decide.

Hi Hands On,

Thank you for your input. And I agree that the Lord will certainly decide when He had brought His Body to maturity.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Acts 3:19 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing/revival may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Hi William,

Now that is a very interesting scripture, thank you. So we see that the Father will send Jesus to gather His Body and bring them to rule and reign with Him on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

Then we realise that Jesus leaves the Father`s throne and after gathering His Body goes to the third heaven where He will be visibly crowned with His Body, by the Father. (Rev. 4 & 5) 

Thus we realise that the `times of restoration of all things,` will begin when the Lord Jesus is with His Body in the highest. It is the restoration of authority there before any other authority can be dealt with.

Good scripture revealing the Father sending Jesus.   

[AdHoc]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:49 AM, Marilyn C said:

ERROR: That the Body of Christ becoming complete depends on a certain number of Gentiles.

 

I disagree -

1.     That would make God partial only allowing a certain number of Gentiles to come into the Body of Christ.

2.     This view does not agree with all of God`s word on this topic.

3.     This error is based on a wrong interpretation of a single scripture.

 

`For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, let you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.` (Rom. 11: 25)  

 

So what is the truth? What scriptures reveal to us God`s completeness of the Body of Christ?

 

Marilyn.

If certain students of scripture use this verse to show the completeness of the Church, they are far wrong. Romans Chapter 9, 10 & 11 show on what basis God can restore Israel. Romans 11:25 sets the TIME that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief. It pertains to Luke 21:24.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled.

This concept is used again for the reason why God delayed Israel's gaining of the Good Land to four hundred years in Genesis 15:16. 

¹⁶  And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

In Daniel Chapter 2, Gentile Government is shown by the four world powers with their types of government. "In the days of the ten toes" Christ will suddenly appear and ruthlessly destroy this Gentile government. So this government is given a TIME until which God removes them and installs Christ. Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief until Christ bursts out the clouds over Mt. Olivet, saves Jerusalem and then conquers Gentile military and political power at Armageddon in Jezreel. It then that the times of the Gentiles are full.

But, I'm interested in your posting. Do you think that Christ will return without having enlivened the set number of Christians? I'll tell you why this is important. Rebirth and eternal life are only gained by FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance and hope of things UNSEEN. The moment our Lord Jesus is SEEN (coming from the clouds) faith CEASES. He can be SEEN and the formula for faith dissolves. If Israel remains in unbelief until Christ is SEEN, then their salvation is not the same as a Christian.

 

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If certain students of scripture use this verse to show the completeness of the Church, they are far wrong. Romans Chapter 9, 10 & 11 show on what basis God can restore Israel. Romans 11:25 sets the TIME that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief. It pertains to Luke 21:24.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the nations until the times of the nations be fulfilled.

This concept is used again for the reason why God delayed Israel's gaining of the Good Land to four hundred years in Genesis 15:16. 

¹⁶  And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

In Daniel Chapter 2, Gentile Government is shown by the four world powers with their types of government. "In the days of the ten toes" Christ will suddenly appear and ruthlessly destroy this Gentile government. So this government is given a TIME until which God removes them and installs Christ. Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel will remain in blindness and unbelief until Christ bursts out the clouds over Mt. Olivet, saves Jerusalem and then conquers Gentile military and political power at Armageddon in Jezreel. It then that the times of the Gentiles are full.

But, I'm interested in your posting. Do you think that Christ will return without having enlivened the set number of Christians? I'll tell you why this is important. Rebirth and eternal life are only gained by FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance and hope of things UNSEEN. The moment our Lord Jesus is SEEN (coming from the clouds) faith CEASES. He can be SEEN and the formula for faith dissolves. If Israel remains in unbelief until Christ is SEEN, then their salvation is not the same as a Christian.

 

Hi AdHoc,

Thank you for your interest and comments. Much of which I agree. 

However the `fullness of the Gentiles,` and the `times of the Gentiles` are different.

I do agree that you have described the `times of the gentiles,` ruling the world is finished by the Lord`s return.

However the `fullness of the Gentiles` in Romans 11 is in context to being grafted into Christ, the `root who is holy, nourishes us and supports us.` (v. 16 - 18)

The Lord Jesus, the Head of His Body will return when He has, by His Holy Spirit brought us to the maturity of faith and the knowledge of Himself. (Eph. 4: 13)

Now to your interesting question. We know the OT saints had faith in what God promised them. However we are talking about those who are on earth at the moment, (of Israel). Now we know that when the Body of Christ is gone then God addresses Israel & the nations.

God brings the Russian Federation down to Israel and deals with them. (Ez. 38 & 39) The dramatic intervention of God brings about Israel turning back to God. (Ez. 39: 21 & 22) Then after the tribulation the Lord, Himself reveals that He is their Messiah. (Zech. 12: 10) They receive their Messiah and have faith in God (the Father). 

Remember also that Adam and Eve did not have to have faith as they walked with God. Look at Heb. 11 and see that those of faith started with Abel, the next generation. Interesting.

Good talking with you, Marilyn.

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

Thank you for your interest and comments. Much of which I agree. 

However the `fullness of the Gentiles,` and the `times of the Gentiles` are different.

I do agree that you have described the `times of the gentiles,` ruling the world is finished by the Lord`s return.

However the `fullness of the Gentiles` in Romans 11 is in context to being grafted into Christ, the `root who is holy, nourishes us and supports us.` (v. 16 - 18)

The Lord Jesus, the Head of His Body will return when He has, by His Holy Spirit brought us to the maturity of faith and the knowledge of Himself. (Eph. 4: 13)

Now to your interesting question. We know the OT saints had faith in what God promised them. However we are talking about those who are on earth at the moment, (of Israel). Now we know that when the Body of Christ is gone then God addresses Israel & the nations.

God brings the Russian Federation down to Israel and deals with them. (Ez. 38 & 39) The dramatic intervention of God brings about Israel turning back to God. (Ez. 39: 21 & 22) Then after the tribulation the Lord, Himself reveals that He is their Messiah. (Zech. 12: 10) They receive their Messiah and have faith in God (the Father). 

Remember also that Adam and Eve did not have to have faith as they walked with God. Look at Heb. 11 and see that those of faith started with Abel, the next generation. Interesting.

Good talking with you, Marilyn.

Thank you for your answer Marilyn. Instead of rebuttal, may I present the events as I see them, with supporting scripture, and then, if my answer is not too long, comment on the scriptures you gave.

We know that scripture has an heptadic structure - sevens everywhere. Now, without going into a long explanation, the first Sabbath is glaringly not defined by "the evening and the morning". It is defined by Adam's life. It is; "IN the day you eat ...", or "WITHIN the day ... ". Adam was made last on the sixth day, so his first day was the Sabbath. And Adam died after 930 years. Now, 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of scripture, so we must turn to the "days" of the Bible to define "that day" in which Adam died. A a study of the whole Bible will show that there are FIVE different "days". (i) The period of sunlight, (ii) the evening and the morning - 24 hours from sunset to sunset, (iii) an event, like the "day of the Lord", (iv) a year, when it is prophecy like Daniel's weeks or the number of years Judah must be in exile that the Land has her Sabbaths, and (v) a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. Now, which one fits Adam's life.

The answer of course is number (v). Adam died WITHIN a day and he made 930 years. Likewise, Hebrews 3 and 4 speak of two other Sabbaths. (i) The time that Israel occupied the Land until the were carried away in chastisement, and (ii) a FUTURE Sabbath where God will be able to rest. Expositors and historians are divided on how long Israel sojourned in the Good Land from Joshua to Nebuchadnezzar, but the all agree on one thing. It was just under 1,000 years. If we take this proof, and add the "principle of first mention", then the "future Sabbath" of Hebrews 4 must be defined as the others were - by 1,000 years. And we find a perfect 1,000 years after Christ's return in Revelation 20. Adam succumbed to Satan and could not complete the thousand years of God's Rest. Israel succumbed to Satan and could not complete that Sabbath Rest. But Christ, Whose Kingdom is without end, easily subdues Satan, the earth and even death to complete His Father's rest.

This 1,000 years is very important for a number of reasons, but it is equally important to our discussion. For if the 1,000 years is the SEVENTH 1,000 year period and God's Rest, then the rebellion of Magog is a thousand years AFTER your calculation. Let us examine the differences between the end of this age, and the rebellion of Magog.

1. Israel is by no means returned to their Land by the end of the Great Tribulation for they are only "gathered from the FOUR WINDS (only Israel was scattered to the four winds)" "after the Tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29-31). This is Ezekiel 37. But Ezekiel 38:8, and other verses, say that Israel has already been gathered out of the nations and dwells safely in their land.
2. Israel live in "unwalled cities" when Magog attacks. That is, they have had years of safety. Israel of today lives in constant state of persecution. Not only is Jerusalem walled, but walls are errected to keep out the Palestinians. Ezekeil 38-39 cannot be at the end of this age.
3. Magog comes with horses, shields and swords. Why not with tanks and missiles? Even today's enemies of Israel use modern weapons. The answer is that after Christ returns no weapons with be produced for 1,000 years (Isa.2:4).
4. Ezekiel 38:21-22 says that God will fight that day, and by two methods; (i) Confusion among men, and (ii) raining fire. At Armageddon, Christ wages war with the Sword of His Word and gets covered in blood
5. And, as mentioned, Christ will have reigned for 1,000 years by then. This reign starts at the end of 3.5 years, or 1260 days, in Revelation 11:15. The Beast is the grand enemy of Christ and is the general of the Gentile army at Armageddon. Magog is the grand enemy of God and is the General of his army - two different battles and two different Generals separated by 1,000 years

There is more, but "by two or three witnesses shall everything be established" and I have shown 5 points of difference between Armageddon and Magog.

Now, returning to your Original Point about the "fulness of the Gentiles", have you considered that it (i) must be an event in time because the word used is "UNTIL". And (ii) those who become believers are NOT "the fullness of the Gentiles". According to Ephesians 2:15 they are taken from "TWAIN", or "TWO" - the "two" being the Gentiles and Israel. And then to further complicated such a concept, those who become converted are WITHOUT ethnicity. "There is NO Jew NOR Greek in the New Man ... " (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

Next, there is no verse that says Israel will turn to Christ. Their darkest hour is still before them - when they allow the Beast in God's Temple (2nd Thess.2:4). They "mourn" when they finally see the One Whom they pierced. Our Lord does not come from Bethlehem nor Galilee to save them, but from Sion just north of Jerusalem. 

Next, Jeremiah 31 promises a New Covenant of Law with Israel AND Judah. That is, Israel must be restored to their Land and ONE NATION again. It is only THEN that Israel's sins are removed (Jer.31:34). 

Next, in Romans it is not FAITH that causes their sins to be put away, but pure mercy. And that mercy is not because Israel kept the Law, but because of the Covenant with Abraham.

Lastly, a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Joshua 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). The Olive Tree is NOT the Church but Christ's Kingdom. To make it the Church presupposes that Israel WERE already in the Church and were cut out - an absurdity since Israel never ever believed.

I am aware of the prevailing understanding of Romans Chapter 9 to 11. Bible students have seen the words "all Israel will be saved" and, without warrant, have made it to mean the same salvation as a Christian experiences. But Zacharias' prediction of Israel's "salvation" is NOT rebirth and/or eternal life. It is the recovery of Israel to what God promised Israel through Abraham.

I apologize for going so long. Thank you in anticipation for your time and consideration, and your courteous manner.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your answer Marilyn. Instead of rebuttal, may I present the events as I see them, with supporting scripture, and then, if my answer is not too long, comment on the scriptures you gave.

We know that scripture has an heptadic structure - sevens everywhere. Now, without going into a long explanation, the first Sabbath is glaringly not defined by "the evening and the morning". It is defined by Adam's life. It is; "IN the day you eat ...", or "WITHIN the day ... ". Adam was made last on the sixth day, so his first day was the Sabbath. And Adam died after 930 years. Now, 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation of scripture, so we must turn to the "days" of the Bible to define "that day" in which Adam died. A a study of the whole Bible will show that there are FIVE different "days". (i) The period of sunlight, (ii) the evening and the morning - 24 hours from sunset to sunset, (iii) an event, like the "day of the Lord", (iv) a year, when it is prophecy like Daniel's weeks or the number of years Judah must be in exile that the Land has her Sabbaths, and (v) a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. Now, which one fits Adam's life.

The answer of course is number (v). Adam died WITHIN a day and he made 930 years. Likewise, Hebrews 3 and 4 speak of two other Sabbaths. (i) The time that Israel occupied the Land until the were carried away in chastisement, and (ii) a FUTURE Sabbath where God will be able to rest. Expositors and historians are divided on how long Israel sojourned in the Good Land from Joshua to Nebuchadnezzar, but the all agree on one thing. It was just under 1,000 years. If we take this proof, and add the "principle of first mention", then the "future Sabbath" of Hebrews 4 must be defined as the others were - by 1,000 years. And we find a perfect 1,000 years after Christ's return in Revelation 20. Adam succumbed to Satan and could not complete the thousand years of God's Rest. Israel succumbed to Satan and could not complete that Sabbath Rest. But Christ, Whose Kingdom is without end, easily subdues Satan, the earth and even death to complete His Father's rest.

This 1,000 years is very important for a number of reasons, but it is equally important to our discussion. For if the 1,000 years is the SEVENTH 1,000 year period and God's Rest, then the rebellion of Magog is a thousand years AFTER your calculation. Let us examine the differences between the end of this age, and the rebellion of Magog.

1. Israel is by no means returned to their Land by the end of the Great Tribulation for they are only "gathered from the FOUR WINDS (only Israel was scattered to the four winds)" "after the Tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29-31). This is Ezekiel 37. But Ezekiel 38:8, and other verses, say that Israel has already been gathered out of the nations and dwells safely in their land.
2. Israel live in "unwalled cities" when Magog attacks. That is, they have had years of safety. Israel of today lives in constant state of persecution. Not only is Jerusalem walled, but walls are errected to keep out the Palestinians. Ezekeil 38-39 cannot be at the end of this age.
3. Magog comes with horses, shields and swords. Why not with tanks and missiles? Even today's enemies of Israel use modern weapons. The answer is that after Christ returns no weapons with be produced for 1,000 years (Isa.2:4).
4. Ezekiel 38:21-22 says that God will fight that day, and by two methods; (i) Confusion among men, and (ii) raining fire. At Armageddon, Christ wages war with the Sword of His Word and gets covered in blood
5. And, as mentioned, Christ will have reigned for 1,000 years by then. This reign starts at the end of 3.5 years, or 1260 days, in Revelation 11:15. The Beast is the grand enemy of Christ and is the general of the Gentile army at Armageddon. Magog is the grand enemy of God and is the General of his army - two different battles and two different Generals separated by 1,000 years

There is more, but "by two or three witnesses shall everything be established" and I have shown 5 points of difference between Armageddon and Magog.

Now, returning to your Original Point about the "fulness of the Gentiles", have you considered that it (i) must be an event in time because the word used is "UNTIL". And (ii) those who become believers are NOT "the fullness of the Gentiles". According to Ephesians 2:15 they are taken from "TWAIN", or "TWO" - the "two" being the Gentiles and Israel. And then to further complicated such a concept, those who become converted are WITHOUT ethnicity. "There is NO Jew NOR Greek in the New Man ... " (Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

Next, there is no verse that says Israel will turn to Christ. Their darkest hour is still before them - when they allow the Beast in God's Temple (2nd Thess.2:4). They "mourn" when they finally see the One Whom they pierced. Our Lord does not come from Bethlehem nor Galilee to save them, but from Sion just north of Jerusalem. 

Next, Jeremiah 31 promises a New Covenant of Law with Israel AND Judah. That is, Israel must be restored to their Land and ONE NATION again. It is only THEN that Israel's sins are removed (Jer.31:34). 

Next, in Romans it is not FAITH that causes their sins to be put away, but pure mercy. And that mercy is not because Israel kept the Law, but because of the Covenant with Abraham.

Lastly, a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Joshua 9, Daniel 4, Ezekiel 31). The Olive Tree is NOT the Church but Christ's Kingdom. To make it the Church presupposes that Israel WERE already in the Church and were cut out - an absurdity since Israel never ever believed.

I am aware of the prevailing understanding of Romans Chapter 9 to 11. Bible students have seen the words "all Israel will be saved" and, without warrant, have made it to mean the same salvation as a Christian experiences. But Zacharias' prediction of Israel's "salvation" is NOT rebirth and/or eternal life. It is the recovery of Israel to what God promised Israel through Abraham.

I apologize for going so long. Thank you in anticipation for your time and consideration, and your courteous manner.

Hi AdHoc,

That`s fine the length as you were giving good detail. Yes Magog and Armageddon are different battles. There is the Magog war BEFORE the trib, and the Magog war AFTER the millennium. Magog meaning the country of the northern area. Thus that area is inhabited during both those times.

Also Israel has a wall as you say, BUT the Golan Heights, villages and mountains has not a wall. That is the region that the Russian Federation will come down to, (drawn by God). Israel won that area back in 1967 however the UN does not recognise it as Israel`s. As to `horses etc` the Russian army and its allies have plenty of those, especially in those areas.  

So we agree that the Body of Christ is not Jew or Gentile, and Rom. 11 is showing that both are included into the `root` which is Christ. That is the point of that illustration, both are IN Christ. We can`t try and place other meaning other than what is actually said. That is why we read all the scriptures on a topic, (as you know) to get the full meaning. Note the interpretation of a symbol has to do with the context as well as its use else where, but not always. 

I disagree that there is no scripture that says Israel will turn to Christ.

`And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 10)

And Jeremiah 31 is a good quote.

I agree that Israel`s salvation is the recovery of God`s promise to Israel through Abraham - rulership of the nations.

good talking with you, Marilyn.