Israel is “saved” nationally - not as the Christian is

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I guess I don't understand how that does or doesn't apply to Eze 39:25ff.

Rom 8:11 KJV But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Are you saying that there is a tangible (not simply a different purpose) difference between the spirit of life versus the spirit of ministry?  Will both groups have their mortal bodies quickened by him who raised up Jesus,  i.e. God the Father? 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

It is the same Holy Spirit, but in God's economy He fulfills two major functions. He gives eternal life. This is INSIDE a man. Then, for ministry, the Holy Spirit gives His divine POWER. This is OUTSIDE a man. Notice your example above. The Holy Spirit "dwells IN you". In verses 1-2 the Spirit is one of LIFE IN Christ Jesus. This Law of LIFE enable one to defeat the Law of sin and death. But then the Chapter goes on to display the POWER of God in raising Jesus, and being the guarantee of our resurrection. 

1. Balaam was a heathen prophet intent on cursing Israel. The Holy Spirit came upon him and he could only bless Israel. He correctly prophesied concerning the Magi.
2. Balaam had a donkey. It saw the angel and spoke Balaam's language. But he never stopped being a donkey. That is, he had the LIFE of a donkey but the POWER of the Holy Spirit.
3. Samson was a rebel and married outside women. But this did not stop the Spirit giving him extra ordinary power
4. Our Lord Jesus was inseminated by the Holy Spirit. That means He had the Holy Spirit as His LIFE from conception. But He only receives the Holy Spirit for POWER after His baptism at age 30 (Lk.4:14)

[AdHoc]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

Appreciate the acknowledgment of fairness. If I misrepresented anything I regret doing so an I will purpose not to repeat that mistake.

However, whether addressed in the op or not it was addressed in scripture: The gospel was preached to Abraham. 

 

Galatians 3:1-9 ESV
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.  Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?  Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith — just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?  Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”  So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith." 

 

Paul ties the land promise (and the seed promise) to Christ and the converts to Christ to whom he is writing. Those promises were not originally made to the nation of Israel. Neither were they made about the nation of Israel according to Paul! Israel was just a vehicle for the fulfillment of the promises - promises that were about Christ. And this is true even though God did already fulfill His end of the land promise. It is true because God already fulfilled His land promise. It is true in lieu of His having already fulfilled that promise. 

Abe will sit at the fest because the gospel was preached to hm and by faith he believed, and according to the author of Hebrews he looked forward to that fulness provided through us, the body of Christ, the temple God built. 

Salvation is by faith AND the deliverer will take away Israel's sin. I reiterated the former in agreement with you in my op-reply and proved the second with scripture. This op correctly states Israel did not and does not exercise faith in Christ but it incorrectly argues faith in Christ is not a requirement to inherit the land. The reason the statement about "requirement" is incorrect is because the deliverer that takes away their sin is Jesus. 

 

I'll address the rest after dinner.  

Just so I don't flail at nothing, am I to understand that you think that the Covenant of Promise is annulled because Israel are in unbelief?

Your text from Galatians does not address the Land. It sets forth Abraham's faith as the model for sanctification. The "circumcision" which had proposed that sanctification came by the Law, are shown to be in serious error. The Land is not even mentioned. The Promises to Abraham were;

1. The Land for an "everlasting possession"
2. Seed as the sand of the sea-shore
3. Seed as the stars of heaven
4. His seed would possess the gates of his enemies
5. He would be father of many nations
6. His enemies would be God's enemies
7. "IN" him would all the families of earth be blessed. That is, IN his loins was One special Seed that would bring great blessing, not upon all men, but upon all families
8. Later, when his exceeding faith is shown, the Promise is extended to possess the whole earth (Rom.4:13)

Your text in Galatians addresses point #7 - the Single Seed - Jesus. My OP addresses  point #1.

Your statement that the "Land Promises" have been fulfilled is un-understandable. First, Hebrew 11 says that they died "NOT having received the promises". Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were "sojourners" in the Land. The next four generations languished and died in Egypt. One generation fell in the wilderness. Less than a thousand years later the seed of Abraham were carried off to Assyria and then "lost" among the nations. Their children never occupied the Land to this day. Then the rest of Abraham's seed were carried off to Babylon with only 2.5% returning, only to be driven off the Land 500+ years later. Then, for 2,000 years the seed of Abraham have been propagating in dispersion. Where then is this "everlasting possession"? I dare say that more seed of Abraham and Isaac have NEVER set foot in the Land than those who once occupied it.

Come brother, God's Promise was "for an everlasting possession". Let us accord our God that His Words are immutable and that "ALL" Israel will still get their Land and remain in it unto "everlasting". The very basis for this was set in Genesis already. Abraham is promised the Land and then immediately afterward told that he would die. Abraham understood that the promises would be fulfilled IN RESURRECTION. And so Daniel 12:2 - after the Tribulation. So also Ezekiel 37 - after resurrection. So Matthew 24:30-31 - after the Tribulation. And so Acts 15:14-17 - after the Church is complete.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

My beliefs are immaterial. The measure of the op is scripture.  Yes? 

That is incorrect. 

Just because Galatians 3 does not mention the word "land" does not mean Paul's not also writing about the land promise. There are two means for understanding this. The first is Paul's mention of Abraham being the father of many nations, which we learn in the Old Testament begins with God establishing one single nation through Abraham and that one God-made nation being the vehicle or impetus for God's promise to Abraham he would be the father of many, not one, nations. The second means of understanding what Paul is writing about is to go back to the original covenant statements. They clearly speak of land. It is the modern-futurist that separates the two......

NOT Paul. 

And, to top it off, God already fulfilled the land promises. 

So the Galatians text does address the land, and it does so quite decisively, and it does so in a manner much differently than originally understood. This is important because the modern-futurist sees discontinuity where the rest of Christendom sees continuity. It is a matter of much debate within Christianity currently. However, my point is that the op does not reflect the New Testament, the later revelation view of the OT covenants. 

OK. Thanks for the reply. I've read and noted your explanation.

Take care.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:31 AM, AdHoc said:

There are three salient points that must be noted with God’s salvation.

1. Salvation is by FAITH and Hebrews 11:1 defines FAITH as “… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.” At the moment anything is SEEN, faith is over.
2. There is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to inherit their Land in prosperity and safety. They are under Covenant for that (Gen.17) and their part is circumcision.
3. According to Ephesians 2:15, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11, the moment a Jew believes in Jesus Christ, his ethnicity ceases. He is no longer a Jew, but a New Man and all that precedes his rebirth is wiped away. The matter of Israel’s restoration is moot to him.

Now, it is evident from Romans 11:25-35 that until the “fulness of the Gentiles”, Israel UNBELIEF abides. What ever meaning one gives for the “fulness of the Gentiles”, whether it be the end of Gentile rule at Armageddon, or the last Gentile to be incorporated in the Church, the fact is, Israel does not exercise FAITH in Jesus. Like Thomas, they only believe when they see our Lord Jesus burst out of the clouds with His pierced hands and feet. Thus, there is NO “salvation” in the sense of being born again and having eternal life like the Christian.

Israel’s “salvation” must be different then. The Bible gives multiple meanings for “salvation”. The context must decide. Are we saved from the Lake of Fire by being a woman who bears children? (1st Timothy 2:15). No, the rigors, self denial and self discipline a mother exercises in child birth and raising “saves” her from a wanton character which only seeks her own things - but does not give eternal life. Likewise, in 1st Peter 3:20, Noah is saved BY water. And scripture tells us how. Not saved from the Lake of Fire but from a conscience defiled by what happened before the flood. The word “saved” means “removed from a damaging situation”.

In Israel’s case, they openly refused their Messiah, then and now. So in what sense is “ALL Israel saved”? All Israel is every one born from the line of Jacob EXCEPT those who have experienced a NEW and HIGHER birth by the Holy Spirit. These, called the New Man, have no past, no ethnicity and they belong to the New Man - “which is created in righteousness, true holiness and after the image of God” (Eph.4:24, Col.3:10). Israel being Law-breakers and blasphemers (as ALL Israel is now found), have no part in this New Man. The sense of Israel’s salvation is “SAVED as a Nation dwelling safely and prosperously in their Land".

This is what the prophets, starting from Moses, predicted. A beautiful summary of the prophets is spoken by Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79. Israel’s salvation is to be forgiven by God, resurrected, restored to their Land, be free of threats from enemies, prosper and serve God Who would dwell with them - Emanuel - God with us. To achieve this NATIONAL restoration, three things are needed:

1. Somebody worthy to take care of their sins. God can never wink at even the smallest of trespasses. His whole being and first attribute is righteousness. But Jesus, Messiah, and anointed of God, pays for ALL sin (singular - Jn.1:29), and ALL trespasses (plural - 1st Jn.2:2). God may, as He say in Romans 11, “have mercy on who he wills”. The price is paid in full by our Lord Jesus.
2. Something else than FAITH. If Israel remain in unbelief until our Lord Jesus is seen, on what basis may mercy be applied? The answer is; the basis is The Covenant with Abraham. Zacharias makes this clear in his prophecy in Luke 1:73.
3. The effects of the Covenant made with Moses must be removed. The Covenant of Law written on stones did not help. It was outside of fallen man, and though good, spiritual and given by God, it only condemned. So God gives Israel (in that day when Israel is united again) a New Covenant OF HIS LAWS. This is promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33 explicitly. But this time, the Laws are written INSIDE the Israelite. And God gives a new heart that is not always at enmity with God. The Israelite of the restoration will INTRINSICALLY keep the Law and never again be ejected from his Land

Each of these three points needs to be expanded. No doubt the energetic discussion that follows will shed much light.

God bless.   

I am not sure what you believe. 

Make it clear, if you know the why it is ok if you do or not.

I am not asking you how to be saved from a violent Father. 

What I am asking is how to inherit Heaven. 

Do you have anything to say about that? 

I know how many cars I own and I know that can I drive only one and not more than one at a time. 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am not sure what you believe. 

Make it clear, if you know the why it is ok if you do or not.

I am not asking you how to be saved from a violent Father. 

What I am asking is how to inherit Heaven. 

Do you have anything to say about that? 

I know how many cars I own and I know that can I drive only one and not more than one at a time. 

Yes. Let me take a step back and show the overall picture.

1. From Adam to Nimrod, there was one people on earth.
2. From Nimrod to Abraham we have the Nations because God divided them
3. From Abraham we have a special Nation - Israel
4. From Jesus Christ's death we have another special people - the Church

That gives THREE peoples on earth - (i) The Nations, (ii) the Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Church. They are distinct because of where they come from, that is, what their ORIGIN was. The Nations are from Adam via Noah. The Nation of Israel is from Isaac and Jacob. The Church is from the Holy Spirit. Each of these three peoples have different standards.

God judges the Nations by their conscience

God judges Israel by Covenants

God judges the Church by obedience to the indwelling Holy Spirit

In this thread we are dealing with Israel. Israel is a Nation, and Paul says that Israel are his "brethren according to the FLESH". From Abraham onward, God deals with Israel via two main Covenants; (I) The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham, and (II) The Covenant of Law made 430 years later. If nothing else happens, Israel will be dealt with by God based upon these two covenants. But something DID HAPPEN. 

What happened is that Jesus, Son of God, Son of Abraham and Son of David, was given to Israel. If Israel had embraced Jesus they would have had a relationship with God based on FAITH. But they refused God's Anointed Messiah. So what happens to Israel? That is the question! What will God do with Israel?

The answer is that God CONTINUES with the Covenants! These are CONTRACTS! Everyone of us knows that once a CONTRACT is signed, it is BINDING. But Israel is in a very bad position because of the CONTRACT (or Covenant) OF LAW. The penalties for a broken Law are very damaging and end with Israel ejected from her Land. The Contract of Promise is overruled by the Contract of Law. Promise says Israel get their Land. Law says that Israel LOSE their Land. How will God solve this?

God solves it by;

1. Allowing Jesus to die for the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2). This allows God to legally forgive Israel's sins
2. Preparing a New Covenant of Law where the Laws are written INSIDE the Israelite, not outside on stone tables.
3. Giving the Israelite a new heart so that he will always chose to keep those Laws written inside of him
4. Resurrecting all Israelites who ever lived and gathering Israel from all the nations where they were dispersed - back to Canaan

In this way, God gets to keep His Covenant of Promise. Israel is forgiven legally. Israel have the same Law, but intrinsically keep it and are never punished again. Jesus, Son of David is their King and dwells WITH them. Israel serve Jesus, Who is "God with them" - Emmanuel.

The last question then is; why does God not do this to THE NATIONS? The answer is simple. He had NO COVENANT with them. And why does God deal differently with the Church? The answer is the same. The Church has NO COVENANT - BUT THEY HAVE FAITH. God deals with the Church based on FAITH. The results of FAITH in Jesus are;

1. One's sins are put away
2. One is born again by the Holy Spirit (Jn.1:12-13)
3. This birth gives eternal life - the divine nature of God (Jn.3:16, 2nd Pet.1:4)
4. This birth make one royal and so an heir of God (Rom.8:17)
5. This birth makes one eligible to be a co-king in Christ's Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5)
6. The divine nature in the Christian makes him able to be in the image and likeness of God (Rom.8:29)

I'm sure you can see the difference between the Christian and the Israelite in God's dealings. God is fair. BOTH Gentile and Israelite are offered Jesus. But if the Israelite refuses Jesus, he is still under Covenant. If he embraces Jesus he becomes a New Creature and is under the Holy Spirit. The Covenant of Law is then moot.

In this thread we talked mainly about this.

God bless.

 

[Dennis1209]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:31 AM, AdHoc said:

There are three salient points that must be noted with God’s salvation.

1. Salvation is by FAITH and Hebrews 11:1 defines FAITH as “… the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.” At the moment anything is SEEN, faith is over.
2. There is no requirement for Israel to believe in Jesus to inherit their Land in prosperity and safety. They are under Covenant for that (Gen.17) and their part is circumcision.
3. According to Ephesians 2:15, 2nd Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11, the moment a Jew believes in Jesus Christ, his ethnicity ceases. He is no longer a Jew, but a New Man and all that precedes his rebirth is wiped away. The matter of Israel’s restoration is moot to him.

Now, it is evident from Romans 11:25-35 that until the “fulness of the Gentiles”, Israel UNBELIEF abides. What ever meaning one gives for the “fulness of the Gentiles”, whether it be the end of Gentile rule at Armageddon, or the last Gentile to be incorporated in the Church, the fact is, Israel does not exercise FAITH in Jesus. Like Thomas, they only believe when they see our Lord Jesus burst out of the clouds with His pierced hands and feet. Thus, there is NO “salvation” in the sense of being born again and having eternal life like the Christian.

Israel’s “salvation” must be different then. The Bible gives multiple meanings for “salvation”. The context must decide. Are we saved from the Lake of Fire by being a woman who bears children? (1st Timothy 2:15). No, the rigors, self denial and self discipline a mother exercises in child birth and raising “saves” her from a wanton character which only seeks her own things - but does not give eternal life. Likewise, in 1st Peter 3:20, Noah is saved BY water. And scripture tells us how. Not saved from the Lake of Fire but from a conscience defiled by what happened before the flood. The word “saved” means “removed from a damaging situation”.

In Israel’s case, they openly refused their Messiah, then and now. So in what sense is “ALL Israel saved”? All Israel is every one born from the line of Jacob EXCEPT those who have experienced a NEW and HIGHER birth by the Holy Spirit. These, called the New Man, have no past, no ethnicity and they belong to the New Man - “which is created in righteousness, true holiness and after the image of God” (Eph.4:24, Col.3:10). Israel being Law-breakers and blasphemers (as ALL Israel is now found), have no part in this New Man. The sense of Israel’s salvation is “SAVED as a Nation dwelling safely and prosperously in their Land".

This is what the prophets, starting from Moses, predicted. A beautiful summary of the prophets is spoken by Zacharias in Luke 1:67-79. Israel’s salvation is to be forgiven by God, resurrected, restored to their Land, be free of threats from enemies, prosper and serve God Who would dwell with them - Emanuel - God with us. To achieve this NATIONAL restoration, three things are needed:

1. Somebody worthy to take care of their sins. God can never wink at even the smallest of trespasses. His whole being and first attribute is righteousness. But Jesus, Messiah, and anointed of God, pays for ALL sin (singular - Jn.1:29), and ALL trespasses (plural - 1st Jn.2:2). God may, as He say in Romans 11, “have mercy on who he wills”. The price is paid in full by our Lord Jesus.
2. Something else than FAITH. If Israel remain in unbelief until our Lord Jesus is seen, on what basis may mercy be applied? The answer is; the basis is The Covenant with Abraham. Zacharias makes this clear in his prophecy in Luke 1:73.
3. The effects of the Covenant made with Moses must be removed. The Covenant of Law written on stones did not help. It was outside of fallen man, and though good, spiritual and given by God, it only condemned. So God gives Israel (in that day when Israel is united again) a New Covenant OF HIS LAWS. This is promised in Jeremiah 31:31-33 explicitly. But this time, the Laws are written INSIDE the Israelite. And God gives a new heart that is not always at enmity with God. The Israelite of the restoration will INTRINSICALLY keep the Law and never again be ejected from his Land

Each of these three points needs to be expanded. No doubt the energetic discussion that follows will shed much light.

God bless.   

You address some very good points.

Abraham believed, and it was counted toward him for righteousness. But what about doubting Thomas (who had to see to believe), John the Baptist (who needed personal confirmation that Jesus was the true Messiah)? The disciple Peter (denying Christ three times). All the disciples (whom didn't immediately believe Jesus rose from the grave)? 

What was their salvation status at that time?

It is my understanding also during the Tribulation, 2/3 of the Jews will perish by the Antichrist and persecution. One third of the Jews will be protected through (not from) the Tribulation (probably in Petra, Jordan)? 

That 1/3 remnant will finally believe, and call upon the name of the Lord, that will initiate the second coming of our Lord and Savior. Each and every one of that 1/3 remnant, will personally be saved, and nationally saved, and allowed to enter the millennium. 

That's my hermeneutics anyway...

[Alive]

A simple question comes to mind. Well-maybe more than one.

How did God affect reconciliation? And did He have this in mind before He Created?

Did He have this in mind before Abraham. Did He have this in mind before the Law and before conscience?

Can the Law save?

Eph. 2:16 (NAS20S) and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility.

Col. 1:20 (NAS20S) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

[AdHoc]

30 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

You address some very good points.

Abraham believed, and it was counted toward him for righteousness. But what about doubting Thomas (who had to see to believe), John the Baptist (who needed personal confirmation that Jesus was the true Messiah)? The disciple Peter (denying Christ three times). All the disciples (whom didn't immediately believe Jesus rose from the grave)? 

What was their salvation status at that time?

It is my understanding also during the Tribulation, 2/3 of the Jews will perish by the Antichrist and persecution. One third of the Jews will be protected through (not from) the Tribulation (probably in Petra, Jordan)? 

That 1/3 remnant will finally believe, and call upon the name of the Lord, that will initiate the second coming of our Lord and Savior. Each and every one of that 1/3 remnant, will personally be saved, and nationally saved, and allowed to enter the millennium. 

That's my hermeneutics anyway...

You bring good questions.

Thomas; Thomas did not doubt Who our Lord Jesus was. He just doubted the resurrection (still serious). That Thomas is not exchanged by anyone else to sit on a throne judging Israel, he will be in the Kingdom. His lapse is corrected. (By the way, if you could look into the minds of many on this Forum, they believe Who Jesus is, but do not believe in the resurrection. They'll never admit it, but if you were allowed to interrogate them, it would come out).

John Baptist is a sad story. He is designated "greatest born of a WOMAN, but less than the least in the Kingdom." To get into the kingdom one needs to be born of the SPIRIT (Jn.3:3-6). John remains thus the top Israelite, but not born again. The Spirit that he had was the economic Spirit (given for power upon men), not the essential Spirit (given internally for rebirth, eternal and divine life).

Peter lost his Apostleship, but Christ restored him. Our Lord threatened that any man who denied Him before men, He would deny before God, the angels and men. We see Peter denied by Jesus in Mark 16:7. Notice the grammar. 

7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

The word "and" is a conjunction. It joins, it adds and it sets a sequence. So when it says "tell .... AND Peter ... " it implies that Peter is not one of the disciples. He is an extra addition but not of the same company. But unlike Judas, Peter wept. His contrite heart saved him and we learn in 1st Cor.15:5

⁵ And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.

The grammar indicates that the Lord had a special and secret meeting with Peter first - to restore him, before being seen by the whole group. The use of "twelve" does not indicate that Matthias was yet selected. But it shows that he was there to see the resurrected Jesus - a qualification for the office of Apostle (Act.1:22)

As to the Jews in the Great Tribulation, the problem is that according to Daniels's prophecy, "Daniel's People" will embrace the Beast. The Beast is allowed to "strengthen THE Covenant" (lit. Heb.) and later, sit in the Temple they built for God (2nd Thess 2:4). At our Lord's trial before Pilate, "ALL the people" chose Caesar as their king. Now, in the final week of Daniel's 70 weeks, they get their Caesar - the Beast. It is this alliance between Israel and the beast that is called "the Abomination of Desolation". And it is this event that so incenses God that He starts the Great Tribulation, or "Jacob's Trouble". 

Thousands, and even millions of Jews will die for this choice. But God always keeps a Remnant - as promised in Romans 9 and 11. This Remnant (found in Revelation Chapter 7) will oppose the unlawful decision to put a man, a Gentile and a Caesar into the Holy of Holies. And just as God would spare Sodom for 10 righteous men, so God is merciful to Israel BECAUSE of the REMNANT. According to Deuteronomy 30:1-5, it is this Remnant that causes God to restore the whole of Israel. It is this Remnant who "keep the commandments of God" in Revelation 12.

The only point that I would dispute is that this Remnant become Christians. At no time until Christ bursts out of the clouds over Jerusalem, does Israel have FAITH. They are shown mercy based on Jesus' efficacy, they are God People, they have Covenants with Him, and they will be the leading Nation in the Millennium with our Lord Jesus, Son of David, as their King - living in Jerusalem. But they can never be "saved" like a Christian. FAITH is needed and Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as the substance of hope in the UNSEEN.

Of course, at least half of the objections to this would disappear if Christians forgot about the Roman Catholic myth that we go to heaven. Man is made from the earth, nourished by the earth, and made to subdue and rule the earth. Our Lord Jesus returns to earth and His Kingdom is ON EARTH.  

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

A simple question comes to mind. Well-maybe more than one.

How did God affect reconciliation? And did He have this in mind before He Created?

Did He have this in mind before Abraham. Did He have this in mind before the Law and before conscience?

Can the Law save?

Eph. 2:16 (NAS20S) and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility.

Col. 1:20 (NAS20S) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

I gladly answer.

God, in His foreknowledge, knew the beginning from the end and the end form the beginning. Let us be under no illusions. The whole vista of creation and is implications were known to God from eternity.

The Greek word for "reconcile" is "to effect a change". The context must decide what change is effected. In Ephesians 2:16 God has made the Church by taking men and women "OU OF" the TWO - the two being the Gentiles ad Israel. But those who are taken out of Israel bring with them the Law of Moses. And the Law of Moses forbids relations with Gentiles. So the Law causes "enmity" and destroy the oneness that God wants in the Body of Christ. The solution, or the way to "reconcile" the two is to abolish the Law for this New Man. The Law is not abolished for Israel. They are still under Covenant. But for the New Man IN Christ, "all things are new and old have passed away".

Colossians 1:20 is a different "reconciliation". Satan's rebellion and man's rebellion, plus idolatry, murder and sexual offense have polluted heaven and earth. Abel's blood calls for vengeance and the earth is cursed. All is in disorder. But God is a God of order and not "confusion". So the complete work of Christ is not only to save men from the lake of fire. It is to restore the harmony that God intended in this magnificent creation. The "blood of His cross" does the following in this respect:

1. It puts aside "sin" (singular) - the fallen Adamic nature that causes all men to die
2. It puts aside "sins" (plural) - the manifold trespasses of all men
3. It fulfills all the requirements of the seven Offerings - mainly to satisfy God
4. It "speaks better things than Abel's blood". Abel's blood calls for vengeance, just as all illegally shed blood does. The earth is cursed because of this. Christ's blood IS THAT VENGEANCE and so God can lift the curse
5. Christ's blood is not only poured into the ground - the earth for the manifold pollutions of man, but according to Hebrews, our Lord took His blood to heaven. There it cannot atone for the angels, but it can satisfy God to remove any pollutions caused by this grievous rebellion.

Thus, Christ's blood provides the JUDICIAL ground for a 100% righteous God to remove curses and enmities. It is this wonderful blood that allows God to "renew" Heaven and Earth when all enemies are subdued by Christ. The Greek word "New" as in "New" Heaven and "New" Earth is literally "made pristine". God must judge sin and rebellion. He cannot wink at sin. The whole of heven and earth were besmirched by the fallen angels and men and demons. Christ's blood does NOT save them in this case. It creates the judicial ground for a righteous God to retsore all things.

[Your closest friendnt]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. Let me take a step back and show the overall picture.

1. From Adam to Nimrod, there was one people on earth.
2. From Nimrod to Abraham we have the Nations because God divided them
3. From Abraham we have a special Nation - Israel
4. From Jesus Christ's death we have another special people - the Church

That gives THREE peoples on earth - (i) The Nations, (ii) the Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Church. They are distinct because of where they come from, that is, what their ORIGIN was. The Nations are from Adam via Noah. The Nation of Israel is from Isaac and Jacob. The Church is from the Holy Spirit. Each of these three peoples have different standards.

God judges the Nations by their conscience

God judges Israel by Covenants

God judges the Church by obedience to the indwelling Holy Spirit

In this thread we are dealing with Israel. Israel is a Nation, and Paul says that Israel are his "brethren according to the FLESH". From Abraham onward, God deals with Israel via two main Covenants; (I) The Covenant of Promise made with Abraham, and (II) The Covenant of Law made 430 years later. If nothing else happens, Israel will be dealt with by God based upon these two covenants. But something DID HAPPEN. 

What happened is that Jesus, Son of God, Son of Abraham and Son of David, was given to Israel. If Israel had embraced Jesus they would have had a relationship with God based on FAITH. But they refused God's Anointed Messiah. So what happens to Israel? That is the question! What will God do with Israel?

The answer is that God CONTINUES with the Covenants! These are CONTRACTS! Everyone of us knows that once a CONTRACT is signed, it is BINDING. But Israel is in a very bad position because of the CONTRACT (or Covenant) OF LAW. The penalties for a broken Law are very damaging and end with Israel ejected from her Land. The Contract of Promise is overruled by the Contract of Law. Promise says Israel get their Land. Law says that Israel LOSE their Land. How will God solve this?

God solves it by;

1. Allowing Jesus to die for the sins of the world (1st Jn.2:2). This allows God to legally forgive Israel's sins
2. Preparing a New Covenant of Law where the Laws are written INSIDE the Israelite, not outside on stone tables.
3. Giving the Israelite a new heart so that he will always chose to keep those Laws written inside of him
4. Resurrecting all Israelites who ever lived and gathering Israel from all the nations where they were dispersed - back to Canaan

In this way, God gets to keep His Covenant of Promise. Israel is forgiven legally. Israel have the same Law, but intrinsically keep it and are never punished again. Jesus, Son of David is their King and dwells WITH them. Israel serve Jesus, Who is "God with them" - Emmanuel.

The last question then is; why does God not do this to THE NATIONS? The answer is simple. He had NO COVENANT with them. And why does God deal differently with the Church? The answer is the same. The Church has NO COVENANT - BUT THEY HAVE FAITH. God deals with the Church based on FAITH. The results of FAITH in Jesus are;

1. One's sins are put away
2. One is born again by the Holy Spirit (Jn.1:12-13)
3. This birth gives eternal life - the divine nature of God (Jn.3:16, 2nd Pet.1:4)
4. This birth make one royal and so an heir of God (Rom.8:17)
5. This birth makes one eligible to be a co-king in Christ's Kingdom (Jn.3:3-5)
6. The divine nature in the Christian makes him able to be in the image and likeness of God (Rom.8:29)

I'm sure you can see the difference between the Christian and the Israelite in God's dealings. God is fair. BOTH Gentile and Israelite are offered Jesus. But if the Israelite refuses Jesus, he is still under Covenant. If he embraces Jesus he becomes a New Creature and is under the Holy Spirit. The Covenant of Law is then moot.

In this thread we talked mainly about this.

God bless.

 

I am not please with the presentation and now the onus is on me to show why.

But I like the way and the history path you have taken to distinguish one period from the other that led in the period of Jesus Christ. 

*God started something New with Jesus Christ when he made Jesus Christ the administrator and put everything in his hand and under his Lordship making the whole world accountable to him. 

And God gave Jesus Christ the Heaven for his Inheritance and not only for him but also for his children, this is everyone who believes in him.

Without any distinction between the living and the dead. 

One Savior, one Lord one inheritor of God Jesus Christ the Son of God for both the living and the dead. 

Forgiveness of sins in his name, in his blood for both the dead and the living and those to come by faith alone in Jesus Christ his Life Giving Son. 

He was the only man who could be the inheritor of God because before he enter our world when he was born from the virgin Mary he was with God and he shared in his splendor and his Glory when God sent him to Create everything that needed to be Created and he also created our world and the first man Adam as we read in Genesis. 

The apostle John put this in few verses in the Gospel of John 1: beginning with v.1.

Paul who was not one of the twelve he said the same thing and also Peter and all the other disciples of Jesus Christ.  

Jesus Christ came to open for man the way to the Heavenly Inheritance and to the Heavenly Father. 

No one out of Jesus Christ can inherit Heaven and be a child of the Heavenly Father.

No one that's why Jesus Christ had to go and Preached the Gospel to everyone who had died before him those three days after his death and before his resurrection from the dead, and everyone who believed in him including Abraham and Issac and Jacob and Samuel and King David and John the Baptist and the thief on the Cross and to the other children of Abraham and to Esau and to Abel the first man to died and to Noah and to everyone who was lost in the flood and the city of Sodoma and Gomora and to Lot and his wife and to the Pharaoh and all the Egyptians because Jesus Christ died for all the dead and all the living. 

Jesus Christ that time preached the Gospel the forgiveness of sins in his blood to everyone who had died before him. 

He was commissioned to preached the Gospel to the dead when he said before the Cross that the time has come for the dead to hear his voice and those who believe will be raised from the dead first before the living , as the Gospel had not been preached to the living yet.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Your closest friendnt