Two questions for pretribulationists

[missmuffet]

22 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

This term is used by Dr Thomas Ice....the big Kahuna of pretribulation, and millions of his followers use it.

 

The church, believers in Christ

 

The church, believers in Christ, those have "the testimony of Jesus Christ"

 

The church, believers in Christ

 

Yes....they are God's people. 

 

These are the 'earth dwellers, those who dwell on the earth..... the unbelievers.'

 

Oh, they do try though. I've heard more "twists" of Scripture than the 50's dance era to Chubby Checker. To say that's 'honest'   well.......?

Thomas Ice is a very good source for Pretribulation. He is good. 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Alright.... there has yet to be a satisfactory answer to this question from those who believe in the pretrib doctrine. Maybe having 2 questions was a bit much, so we'll just have one question at a time. 

(The term 'tribulation saints' is a term dreamt up and used by pretribulationists. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm just stating facts). 

So.......................... anybody?

Can anybody answer this question? 

................................................................................................................................................????????????????????????????????????

 

 

A tribulation Saint is of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Church is already in heaven before the 70th week (the tribulation period) of Daniel begins. 

[JoeCanada]

46 minutes ago, The Light said:

A tribulation Saint is of the twelve tribes of Israel. The Church is already in heaven before the 70th week (the tribulation period) of Daniel begins. 

Yes.... that is what pretrib teaches, without justification, as there are no scriptures to back this up. Is there anywhere in Scripture where the twelve tribes are called 'saints'? It's an honest question brother.... I can't think of one, though there may be.

[missmuffet]

1 minute ago, JoeCanada said:

Yes.... that is what pretrib teaches, without justification, as there are no scriptures to back this up. Is there anywhere in Scripture where the twelve tribes are called 'saints'? It's an honest question brother.... I can't think of one, though there may be.

The twelve tribes of Israel are the saved Jewish. The tribulation saints and the 12 tribes if Israel are two different groups of people. 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:17 AM, missmuffet said:

The tribulation saints are among the unbelievers who have come into the 7 year tribulation. When they have genuinely come to Christ during the 7 year tribulation they will be saved and go to heaven. All those who take the MOB and do not come to God during the 7 year tribulation will go into hell.

Hey missmuffet,

When you stated this.... "All those who take the MOB and do not come to God during the 7 year tribulation will go into hell."............... are you implying that there are some who do take the mark of the beast and do come to God during the trib?

[JoeCanada]

2 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The twelve tribes of Israel are the saved Jewish. The tribulation saints and the 12 tribes if Israel are two different groups of people.

If what you are saying is true..... aren't all who come to faith in Christ "one"...there is neither Jew or Greek (gentile) for you are all one in Christ Jesus?

How can there be two different groups of believers....actually three because the other believers are raptured 7 years earlier according to pretrib.?

[missmuffet]

16 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

If what you are saying is true..... aren't all who come to faith in Christ "one"...there is neither Jew or Greek (gentile) for you are all one in Christ Jesus?

How can there be two different groups of believers....actually three because the other believers are raptured 7 years earlier according to pretrib.?

I am going to post two different answers. The first is who the 144,000 the twelve tribes of Israel is and the second is who the tribulation saints are. 

[missmuffet]

The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4, “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” This passage comes in an interlude between the judgment of the sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12–17) and the opening of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1).
How one answers the question “who are the 144,000?” depends on which interpretive approach one takes to the book of Revelation. The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by missmuffet

[missmuffet]

The tribulation saints are, quite simply, saints living during the tribulation. We believe that the church will be raptured before the tribulation, but the Bible indicates that a great number of people during the tribulation will place their faith in Jesus Christ. In his vision of heaven, John sees a vast number of these tribulation saints who have been martyred by the Antichrist: “There before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands” (Revelation 7:9). When John asks who they are, he is told, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

The tribulation will be a time of great trouble for the wicked, because of God’s judgments. It will also be a time of great persecution for the believers—or saints—because of the Antichrist’s persecution (Revelation 13:7). Daniel saw the Antichrist “waging war against the saints and defeating them” (Daniel 7:21). Of course, the saints’ eternal salvation is secure: Daniel also saw that “the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom” (Daniel 7:22; cf. Revelation 14:12–13).

The tribulation saints will hear the gospel from several possible sources. The first is the Bible; there will be many copies of the Bible left in the world, and when God’s judgments begin to fall, many people will likely react by finding a Bible to see if prophecies are being fulfilled. Many of the tribulation saints will also have heard the gospel from the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1–13). The Bible says these two individuals “will prophesy for 1,260 days [three and a half years]” (verse 3) and perform great miracles (verse 6). And then there are the 144,000 Jewish missionaries who are redeemed and sealed by God during the tribulation (Revelation 7:1–8). Immediately following the description of their sealing in Revelation 7, we read of the multitudes of tribulation saints who are saved from every corner of the world (verses 9–17).

The tribulation saints will serve their Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of desperate surroundings. Faithful to the end, many of these believers will die for their faith. But in their death, they overcome; “They overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death” (Revelation 12:11). And God will reward them: “He who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes” (Revelation 7:15–17).

We praise the Lord that the great day of trouble will also be a great day of grace. Even as God is meting out His just punishment on an unbelieving world, He will be restoring Israel to faith and extending grace to all who believe, both Jew and Gentile. God has always been in the business of saving people, and that salvation will still be available during the tribulation. Don’t wait until then, however; receive Jesus now (John 1:12).

https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation-saints.html

[missmuffet]

27 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey missmuffet,

When you stated this.... "All those who take the MOB and do not come to God during the 7 year tribulation will go into hell."............... are you implying that there are some who do take the mark of the beast and do come to God during the trib?

All those who worship the beast and take the MOB will not be saved and will end up in hell.