Two questions for pretribulationists

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

Fact is, 60 God fearing christian scholars were on the KJV committee, that brought forth a masterpiece that has been established for 410 years and going strong

Fact is, the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) that supports almost all new translations NIV, NASB, ESV, Etc, was created by (Kurt & Barbara Aland) adulterers and (Carlo Maria Martini) a roman catholic Jesuit cardinal and homosexual Union supporter

I'll take the 60 Giod fearing Christian's, you can have the adulterers and homosexual union supporter

Fact is, you are using the tactic of a straw man argument.

Point to a single verse which I have used that contradicts the Greek Textus Receptus of the AV. Otherwise, please don't blow more smoke.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/21/2021 at 2:42 PM, truth7t7 said:

Satan being cast out of heaven is a historical event not future as you suggest, as Jesus clearly explains he witnessed the event "Prior" to his words spoken below, thousands of years ago

Luke 10:18AKJV

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Hi t7t7,

Did  Jesus see Satan fall at that very moment, or  was it a future event.

If we look at Rev 12:10: 

"Now the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night"

From this verse in Rev we know that when Jesus "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven", it was a future event.

Satan accuses the brethren day and night before God, who is in heaven. The brethren weren't yet in heaven when Jesus made the statement in Luke.

A person might have to rethink this. 

[truth7t7]

46 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi t7t7,

Did  Jesus see Satan fall at that very moment, or  was it a future event.

If we look at Rev 12:10: 

"Now the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night"

From this verse in Rev we know that when Jesus "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven", it was a future event.

Satan accuses the brethren day and night before God, who is in heaven. The brethren weren't yet in heaven when Jesus made the statement in Luke.

A person might have to rethink this. 

Thanks for your response Joe

Satan was present on earth during Job's temptation

Satan was present on earth to temp the Lord 40 days/nights

The earth is Gods footstool, we are all present before God

Jesus saw satan cast out "past tense" it already happened, Revelation 12:4 below is a recap of satan being cast out, and satan trying to devour the womans child "Jesus" through King Herod

Revelation 12:4KJV

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Edited December 30, 2021 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

15 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Did  Jesus see Satan fall at that very moment, or  was it a future event.

If we look at Rev 12:10: 

"Now the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night"

From this verse in Rev we know that when Jesus "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven", it was a future event.

Satan accuses the brethren day and night before God, who is in heaven. The brethren weren't yet in heaven when Jesus made the statement in Luke.

Well spoke. An additional point: verse 7 says "And war began in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon..."

This is the same event spoken of in Daniel 12:1 --

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great sar standing over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So in verse 1 we see the Great Tribulation -- "then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," Mt. 24:21 -- and in verse 2 we see the resurrection of the dead.

Ergo, this event in Daniel and Revelation is clearly End Times.

Two witnesses, OT and NT.

 

One other point: since there are three heavens, not one, it is possible, maybe likely, that Satan has been cast down from a higher heaven to a lower one, and more than once. Therefore it is possible Jesus saw Satan cast down in His day to the lowest heaven, where he now rules as the "prince of the power of the air." Ephesians 2:2  And it is "in the air" where Jesus will receive His raptured saints (1 Thes. 4:17), from where Satan will have been displaced.

 

[truth7t7]

19 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Well spoke. An additional point: verse 7 says "And war began in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon..."

This is the same event spoken of in Daniel 12:1 --

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great sar standing over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So in verse 1 we see the Great Tribulation -- "then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," Mt. 24:21 -- and in verse 2 we see the resurrection of the dead.

Ergo, this event in Daniel and Revelation is clearly End Times.

Two witnesses, OT and NT.

 

One other point: since there are three heavens, not one, it is possible, maybe likely, that Satan has been cast down from a higher heaven to a lower one, and more than once. Therefore it is possible Jesus saw Satan cast down in His day to the lowest heaven, where he now rules as the "prince of the power of the air." Ephesians 2:2  And it is "in the air" where Jesus will receive His raptured saints (1 Thes. 4:17), from where Satan will have been displaced.

 

I Strongly Disagree, Michael fighting in heaven when satan "Was" cast out in Revelation 12:4, has absolutely no connection to Daniel 12:1-2 as you claim

Edited December 30, 2021 by truth7t7

[JoeCanada]

31 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Well spoke. An additional point: verse 7 says "And war began in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon..."

This is the same event spoken of in Daniel 12:1 --

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great sar standing over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So in verse 1 we see the Great Tribulation -- "then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," Mt. 24:21 -- and in verse 2 we see the resurrection of the dead.

Ergo, this event in Daniel and Revelation is clearly End Times.

Two witnesses, OT and NT.

 

One other point: since there are three heavens, not one, it is possible, maybe likely, that Satan has been cast down from a higher heaven to a lower one, and more than once. Therefore it is possible Jesus saw Satan cast down in His day to the lowest heaven, where he now rules as the "prince of the power of the air." Ephesians 2:2  And it is "in the air" where Jesus will receive His raptured saints (1 Thes. 4:17), from where Satan will have been displaced.

 

Quite right William.

Of the 400 some odd verses in the BofRev, almost 300 are Old Testament quotes, or alluded to the OT prophets. Dan 12 and Rev 12 are connected.

You may have a good point with Satan being cast down to a lower heaven.... hmmmm...... gonna have to do a bit more thinking on this. 

However, Satan still accuses the brethren day and night before God..... and has been for 2000 years. 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, truth7t7 said:

Jesus saw satan cast out "past tense" it already happened, Revelation 12:4 below is a recap of satan being cast out, and satan trying to devour the womans child "Jesus" through King Herod

t7t7,

How then does Satan accuse the brethren....before God (who is in heaven).......day and night?

[DeighAnn]

49 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

I Strongly Disagree, Michael fighting in heaven when satan "Was" cast out in Revelation 12:4, has absolutely no connection to Daniel 12:1-2 as you claim

And was thrown [out] the dragon great the serpent ancient who is called devil and Satan deceiving the inhabited [world] whole He was thrown down to the earth and the angels of him with him were thrown down

WE know what happens when ANGELS come to earth and so it is impossible Rev 12 is not future.  ANOTHER reason it can only be for a short season.  

Satan is only once spoken of as deceiving the whole world.  That also is future

[DeighAnn]

59 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Well spoke. An additional point: verse 7 says "And war began in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon..."

This is the same event spoken of in Daniel 12:1 --

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great sar standing over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt."

So in verse 1 we see the Great Tribulation -- "then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be," Mt. 24:21 -- and in verse 2 we see the resurrection of the dead.

Ergo, this event in Daniel and Revelation is clearly End Times.

Two witnesses, OT and NT.

 

One other point: since there are three heavens, not one, it is possible, maybe likely, that Satan has been cast down from a higher heaven to a lower one, and more than once. Therefore it is possible Jesus saw Satan cast down in His day to the lowest heaven, where he now rules as the "prince of the power of the air." Ephesians 2:2  And it is "in the air" where Jesus will receive His raptured saints (1 Thes. 4:17), from where Satan will have been displaced.

 

I believe 'ages' are being spoken of, not levels, but I could be wrong.  But either way it would need to be discussed in a different thread.  

[Selah7]

8 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I believe 'ages' are being spoken of, not levels, but I could be wrong.  But either way it would need to be discussed in a different thread.  

I believe this as well, D.

 

In chapter 3 of 2nd. Peter, Peter tells us about all 3 heaven and earth ages:

For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

- 2 Peter 3:5-7 (NKJV)

S.