Charlie744 Posted December 26, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,711 Content Per Day: 1.70 Reputation: 864 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said: Wait and see. Not wait and see, because Adam was in the past. Either Adam had the 'spirit' of God breathed into him so he could be in the presence of God in the Garden or ?????????? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 18 hours ago, Josheb said: No, these statements contradict both one another and claims made in dissent of what I have posted. For example, when I say there is always a body and then read that's not the case but then also read the soul is a body in the sense that it has mass, then that is contradictory. Or, regardless of what I have posted to say the soul is a body, but the body is the housing and not the soul that's self-contradictory. Similarly, saying the soul is a body while also saying the soul and body are separate entities is definitely self-contradictory. It cannot be a body and be separate from the body that it is. To say the soul is its own body AND souls do not have bodies is, again, self-contradictory. They are not different ways of saying the same thing. They are self-contradictory, and thereby self-refuting, statements that cannot both be had at the same time. You are not making any sense. It's apparent that because you did not understand the use of the word disembodied which I was trying to correct, the fault lies in your own inability to make yourself clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 18 hours ago, Josheb said: I completely agree. You've just contradicted yourself. You've said sin is the only reason, but you've also just said the sinless Adam could not have entered the kingdom of God or heaven. Even the sinless person needs Jesus to see the kingdom. Sin is not the only reason. Adam would not be able to enter Heaven because he was not designed to live there. Whether he was sinless or not has no bearing on his situation before the fall. Sin is the only reason that keeps us from entering heaven after the death of the body. We have to be redeemed. After Adam sinned, he would have to be redeemed like the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 20 hours ago, Charlie744 said: Do you think Adam could have been in the presence of God in the Garden if he was not given the Holy Spirit when God created him? (and I do not mean THE HOLY SPIRIT, but God breathed into Adam His holy spirit). This is what was lost when he sinned and could not longer be in His presence. At the resurrection, those 'in Christ' will have this same holy spirit breathed / given into us and we will again have the ability to be in His presence. Full circle. Adam's body was given life by the breath. Most likely he experienced God's Holy Spirit in his soul before he sinned, but it was not his life force as it is for Jesus. Adam probably did feel the loss of the Spirit when he sinned and that must have been a horrific experience. David felt a little of it when he sinned with Bathsheba. We can have the Holy Spirit now and feel His presence before the resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 19 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: Please can you say something about man's Inheritance after death without making any reference of Jesus Christ, in the way how everything was before the Cross. Because with the Cross Jesus completed his mission and brought a change in the world. If you can say something about the first man to die, and this is Abel. What happened to him is it something that God communicate to Adam. And about Abraham. You'll have to be more specific, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Josheb said: I posted the definition. I used the term as it is defined in normal ordinary usage. I am not the one using it differently than it is ordinarily defined, and then using that different definition to justify one's errors. Meanings the word does not contain and I never intended were read into my posts. The fact the definition was post still hasn't been acknowledged and the posts continue as if the definition wasn't posted. It's all here in the thread for any and all to read. The self-contradictory statements still aren't being address; the existence of the contradictions is denied. The fact remains it has been argued the body and soul are separable but then change to say the soul is a body and has a body and not a single scriptural example of a disembodied or bodiless human soul has been provided. That is nonsensical. I gave you the example of Samuel who is a disembodied soul, meaning a soul without a physical body. You said that the soul has a body and I agreed with that and added later that the soul is its own body. What is your problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Was Jesus a sacrifice for Adam? And... You are shifting the goalposts, Bib. We're not discussing whether sin is the only reason keeping us from heaven. We're discussing whether sin was the only reason for God's plan for creation that necessarily included Jesus as the foreknown sacrifice. Focus. And... You've just contradicted yourself (again). You just said Adam couldn't enter heaven because he wasn't made to do so BUT you have also just said sin is the only reason keeping us from entering heaven. That would be TWO reasons a person might not enter heaven: 1) they weren't made to do so, and 2) they've sinned. And.... That in turn leads to another contradiction you've posted because you've been arguing sin was the only reason God foreknew Jesus as the perfect sacrifice, but corruptible people can't get into heaven and the not-corrupted pre-disobedient Adam wasn't designed to live in heaven. Was Adam's design complete? Jesus was a sacrifice for Adam. Sin is the only reason that Jesus was foreordained. Sin is the only reason that keeps people from entering heaven after the fall. Adam's design was complete. He was created with a body like ours that is subject to temptation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Biblican said: You'll have to be more specific, I don't understand what you are trying to say. Sorry. What I am trying to bring up is that the default Inheritance of man from Adam to the whole world change with Abraham and for Abraham and his children only. This happened when God gave Abraham imputed righteousness and he made him the Patriarch of his people and he included his children Issac and Jacob which he named him Israel that in him he included all his children and all his household. God change Abraham's Inheritance after death when he continue to be his God after death. Abraham was the first man who continue to be and remained alive to God after death and God included Abraham's children who at the time of their death they were gathered to their Patriarch Abraham. They were alive to the Almighty God, in life and in death. They were gathered at a separate place from the rest of the dead of the world. In a place that belong to Almighty God in the earth. Separated and Apart from the rest of the world where the God of the dead was off limits and he could not touched them and was forbitten to communicate or associate with them. This is the world and how it change with Abraham. Man's DEFAULT Inheritance at death was with the God of the dead and his name is Hades. Abraham and his children became the first people whom escaped the God of the dead Hades. Whom the God of the dead could not have for the first time. Abraham was the first Man who died and whom the God of the dead could not have because at his death Abraham continue to be Alive to God and God put him in his own place which was called the Paradise of Abraham bellow the earth. That's how the world was at the time Jesus Christ died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biblican Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 17 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 673 Content Per Day: 0.41 Reputation: 143 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/30/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 19 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: What I am trying to bring up is that the default Inheritance of man from Adam to the whole world change with Abraham and for Abraham and his children only. This happened when God gave Abraham imputed righteousness and he made him the Patriarch of his people and he included his children Issac and Jacob which he named him Israel that in him he included all his children and all his household. God change Abraham's Inheritance after death when he continue to be his God after death. Abraham was the first man who continue to be and remained alive to God after death and God included Abraham's children who at the time of their death they were gathered to their Patriarch Abraham. They were alive to the Almighty God, in life and in death. They were gathered at a separate place from the rest of the dead of the world. In a place that belong to Almighty God in the earth. Separated and Apart from the rest of the world where the God of the dead was off limits and he could not touched them and was forbitten to communicate or associate with them. This is the world and how it change with Abraham. Man's DEFAULT Inheritance at death was with the God of the dead and his name is Hades. Abraham and his children became the first people whom escaped the God of the dead Hades. Whom the God of the dead could not have for the first time. Abraham was the first Man who died and whom the God of the dead could not have because at his death Abraham continue to be Alive to God and God put him in his own place which was called the Paradise of Abraham bellow the earth. That's how the world was at the time Jesus Christ died. I agree, all the righteous souls who died prior to Jesus went to Paradise, and it was located in the center of the earth according to the Hebrews, which is confirmed by Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 27, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,972 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, Biblican said: I agree, all the righteous souls who died prior to Jesus went to Paradise, and it was located in the center of the earth according to the Hebrews, which is confirmed by Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. No that's not what I posted. Please read my post carefully and you will see how the distinction is made between Abraham and his children and the rest of the world before him. Everyone by default at death was harvest by Hades the God of the dead. Righteous or unrighteous till Abraham and beginning with Abraham that changed. Abraham was the first one to inherit the Paradise of God bellow the Earth. Abraham's Paradise was only for those with the imputed righteousness who continued to be alive to the Almighty God continuously while they lived and after they died. God continue to be their God, they continue to be alive unto him. The God of the dead Hades was off limits to them BEGINNING WITH ABRAHAM. This is the text of Genesis 4: from 8-10 is about the first man who died, the righteous and Holy Abel by the testimony of God who is telling us that Abel is not with him and who promised to take revenge not on Cain who kill him but on the one who took him by right from him. The Devil, the Serpent, whom God promised to bring an end to his right over the human race when the seed of the woman will make that happen. Jesus said: I have the keys of Death and Hades.. it is done in Jesus Christ. There is a Heavenly Inheritance for those who die alive in Jesus Christ, immediately at the time of their physical death. Bellow the passage that saws the Inheritance of all mankind righteous and unrighteous upon all mankind, everyone belong to Hades at the time of their death with the exception of Abraham and his children till Jesus Christ put an end of Hades reigned over the Human race. GOD appointed JESUS CHRIST the Son of Man to be the judge of all people beginning with the dead first according to their faith in him. Genesis 4: 8-10 is about the generations of Adam and their Inheritance after their death it was not with God. 8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. 9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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