The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

[truth7t7]

21 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Ok. I guess we aren't really going anywhere at this point. In a nutshell you believe that there will be two people walking around with fire coming out of their mouths and I don't. But God bless you. 

At no time did I state people are walking around with fire coming out of their mouths as you claim

Fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic of them calling fire down from heaven, just as Elijah did against the prophets of Baal

[AdHoc]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:49 AM, Joulre2abba said:

An occasion that is like lightening does not mean that there will be literal light involved. But lightening cannot be determined beforehand where or when it will occur.

In the rapture of the Church, Jesus will not come as a thief. A thief is an unexpected robber. Read Revelation about the church at Sardis. To them he comes like a thief because they are not prepared. Let us not associate ourselves with them.

But the Church-Bride of Christ expects Jesus to come for us. He is our Blessed Hope. Another word for hope is joyous expectation.

We just don't know exactly when he will come. So it will be like lightening.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 2:51 AM, JoeCanada said:

Hi J,

That is right.... He will come like a thief to those who are not expecting Him, the unsaved.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

"For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night."

I present you four mentions of the Lord coming as a thief. Matthew 24:40-45, Lk.12:36-40, 1st Thessalonians 5:1-4 and Revelation 3:3 

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season

In Matthew 24, this section starts with a parable. According to Matthew 13, the Lord speaks in parables so that Israel and the Nations cannot understand. A parable is for the Church's understanding. The immediate context is 2 workers, or servants. The word "Taken" is "paralambano" which means "taken as a well known companion". In verse 42 the lesson is for those who understand "YOUR LORD" - Christians. In verse 43 the "House" must be the Church because those who had the Lord are taken. Verse 44 confirms it with "therefore". The listeners are those who have "their Lord" and a house of servants. In verse 45 it is doubly confirmed. It is "HIS LORD", and triple confirmed by the fact that only Christians are rulers over the household of God.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Likewise Luke 12. Verse 36 they wait for "THEIR LORD". Only Christians wait for their Lord. Verse 37 it is "servants who are watching" - Christians. In verse 38 it is "servants" again who, in verse 39 belong to the same Household as the other servants. Verse 40 connects the servants to the thief Who is the Son of man. 

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

In 1st Thessalonians 5 the rapture has just been dealt with. In that narrative the Lord is descending. But He does not break the clouds for we, who are "caught away", MEET Him there. Then Paul changes from "you" - the Christians he is addressing - to "they". "You" the Christian must watch, for a thief comes with stealth at the circadian low when men are at their weakest. "THEY", the Nations, not only will miss the thief, but they cry "safety". It is clear then that the Lord does not come as lightening for the "day of the Lord". He slips in unannounced, takes what is valuable, and slinks away. Is this lightening from the east to the west?

Lightening, tell us the scientists, is 5 X hotter than the sun and though the flash-channel is very narrow, the brightness of a lightening is 600 X brighter than sunlight. Can a flash of lightening be "stealthy" like a thief?

I propose that The Lord, when He comes, has a journey. He now sits in the right hand throne part of His Father's Throne above the highest heavens. At a certain time, the Father releases Him from building the Church, and commissions Him to change the government on earth any punish mankind for their ungodliness. His journey takes him to the lower heaven where He is crowned and opens the Seals. He quickly continues His journey to the troposphere where the clouds are and causes His Church to be raptured to where he is in the clouds (1st Thess.4). During the Great Tribulation He sits on His "traveling Judgment Seat" (Bema - Gk.) and judges the Church in the clouds. After the 3 ½ years of Tribulation is over, our Lord Jesus leaves the clouds and, like a flash of lightening, is seen by all as He descends down to the Mount Olives. Once there He saves Jerusalem, fights Armageddon and sends His angels to gather Israel from the "four winds" as Ezekiel 37 predict.

• The Coming of the Lord is ONE journey with at least two stops along the way
• The Lord, on His journey to earth, stops in the clouds, and like a THIEF, raptures His Church
• While the Tribulation rages, Christ judges His Church in the clouds
• After the end of the Tribulation He descends from to clouds to open air like LIGHTENING, to land on Mt. Olives
• He changes the government of the world at Armageddon
• Having fought Armageddon and established His Throne in Jerusalem,  He sends His angels to gather Israel from the diaspora.

Edited January 25, 2022 by AdHoc

[JoeCanada]

7 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

 

I present you four mentions of the Lord coming as a thief. Matthew 24:40-45, Lk.12:36-40, 1st Thessalonians 5:1-4 and Revelation 3:3 

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season

In Matthew 24, this section starts with a parable. According to Matthew 13, the Lord speaks in parables so that Israel and the Nations cannot understand. A parable is for the Church's understanding. The immediate context is 2 workers, or servants. The word "Taken" is "paralambano" which means "taken as a well known companion". In verse 42 the lesson is for those who understand "YOUR LORD" - Christians. In verse 43 the "House" must be the Church because those who had the Lord are taken. Verse 44 confirms it with "therefore". The listeners are those who have "their Lord" and a house of servants. In verse 45 it is doubly confirmed. It is "HIS LORD", and triple confirmed by the fact that only Christians are rulers over the household of God.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Likewise Luke 12. Verse 36 they wait for "THEIR LORD". Only Christians wait for their Lord. Verse 37 it is "servants who are watching" - Christians. In verse 38 it is "servants" again who, in verse 39 belong to the same Household as the other servants. Verse 40 connects the servants to the thief Who is the Son of man. 

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

In 1st Thessalonians 5 the rapture has just been dealt with. In that narrative the Lord is descending. But He does not break the clouds for we, who are "caught away", MEET Him there. Then Paul changes from "you" - the Christians he is addressing - to "they". "You" the Christian must watch, for a thief comes with stealth at the circadian low when men are at their weakest. "THEY", the Nations, not only will miss the thief, but they cry "safety". It is clear then that the Lord does not come as lightening for the "day of the Lord". He slips in unannounced, takes what is valuable, and slinks away. Is this lightening from the east to the west?

Lightening, tell us the scientists, is 5 X hotter than the sun and though the flash-channel is very narrow, the brightness of a lightening is 600 X brighter than sunlight. Can a flash of lightening be "stealthy" like a thief?

I propose that The Lord, when He comes, has a journey. He now sits in the right hand throne part of His Father's Throne above the highest heavens. At a certain time, the Father releases Him from building the Church, and commissions Him to change the government on earth any punish mankind for their ungodliness. His journey takes him to the lower heaven where He is crowned and opens the Seals. He quickly continues His journey to the troposphere where the clouds are and causes His Church to be raptured to where he is in the clouds (1st Thess.4). During the Great Tribulation He sits on His "traveling Judgment Seat" (Bema - Gk.) and judges the Church in the clouds. After the 3 ½ years of Tribulation is over, our Lord Jesus leaves the clouds and, like a flash of lightening, is seen by all as He descends down to the Mount Olives. Once there He saves Jerusalem, fights Armageddon and sends His angels to gather Israel from the "four winds" as Ezekiel 37 predict.

• The Coming of the Lord is ONE journey with at least two stops along the way
• The Lord, on His journey to earth, stops in the clouds, and like a THIEF, raptures His Church
• While the Tribulation rages, Christ judges His Church in the clouds
• After the end of the Tribulation He descends from to clouds to open air like LIGHTENING, to land on Mt. Olives
• He changes the government of the world at Armageddon
• Having fought Armageddon and established His Throne in Jerusalem,  He sends His angels to gather Israel from the diaspora.

Hi AdHoc,

I gotta hand it to you, you're a good story teller.

Unfortunately, it's all fiction. 

To begin with, John's vision was from the Throne Room in heaven, not somewhere in the clouds floating around.

And at the rapture, the "Bride" is presented to the Father IN HEAVEN, BEFORE HIS THRONE...... they don't float around in the clouds for 3  1/2 years and then go back down to the earth. 

I shake my head in disbelief.

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi AdHoc,

I gotta hand it to you, you're a good story teller.

Unfortunately, it's all fiction. 

To begin with, John's vision was from the Throne Room in heaven, not somewhere in the clouds floating around.

And at the rapture, the "Bride" is presented to the Father IN HEAVEN, BEFORE HIS THRONE...... they don't float around in the clouds for 3  1/2 years and then go back down to the earth. 

I shake my head in disbelief.

Hi Joe.

Thanks for your input. I neither addressed John's visions except one he had on Patmos (Rev.3), nor did I address the Bride. You left my posting challenged only by a (friendly) opinion. I'll let is stand then. But I have a verse for you to mull - about heaven and the clouds.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. (Ge 1:6–8)

 

[JoeCanada]

23 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

I propose that The Lord, when He comes, has a journey. He now sits in the right hand throne part of His Father's Throne above the highest heavens. At a certain time, the Father releases Him from building the Church, and commissions Him to change the government on earth any punish mankind for their ungodliness. His journey takes him to the lower heaven where He is crowned and opens the Seals. He quickly continues His journey to the troposphere where the clouds are and causes His Church to be raptured to where he is in the clouds (1st Thess.4). During the Great Tribulation He sits on His "traveling Judgment Seat" (Bema - Gk.) and judges the Church in the clouds. After the 3 ½ years of Tribulation is over, our Lord Jesus leaves the clouds and, like a flash of lightening, is seen by all as He descends down to the Mount Olives. Once there He saves Jerusalem, fights Armageddon and sends His angels to gather Israel from the "four winds" as Ezekiel 37 predict.

Hi AdHoc, 

It is from this story (above) that I responded that "it was all fictional." 

 You believe that the entire 3 1/2 year tribulation period is the Wrath of God, is that correct? 

And from what you wrote (above) it seems that you also believe that the seals are opened in rapid fire... "His journey takes him to the lower heaven where He is crowned and opens the Seals. He quickly continues His journey"

And also from the above quote, you believe that Jesus is crowned even before He opens the Seven Sealed Scroll...."His journey takes him to the lower heaven where He is crowned and opens the Seals."

And you say that the Church is judged during the GT, but in the clouds where they have just been raptured to?.... "During the Great Tribulation He sits on His "traveling Judgment Seat" (Bema - Gk.) and judges the Church in the clouds"

 

[truth7t7]

21 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Oh. So you can use symbolism when convenient.  But the plagues are literal right? Maybe spiritual? Hmmmm.

Walter I find it hard to believe you acknowledge Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt were "Literal" and you look at Revelation 11 in the (Two Witnesses) and want to symbolize the prophets returned

The Two Witnesses will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, have literal bodies that die, and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, as a literal world watches in celebration

The Two Witnesses are going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt 

Jesus Is The Lord

[truth7t7]

11 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You stated: "Fire coming out of their mouths is symbolic of them calling fire down from heaven, just as Elijah did against the prophets of Baal"

Actually when I think about it what happened with Elijah isn't the same thing as these two witnesses fire did not come out of Elijah's mouth he called fire down from heaven these two witnesses are going to be "breathing fire", because your claim is that all of this is going to be literal. In other words you can't reference Revelation 11 with what happened in Elijah's day the only similarity is that they are both references to judgment when it comes to fire.

Your statement is a false misrepresentation of myself for a second time

At no time have I claimed literal fire is coming from mouths, I gave you my interpretation, and its "Symbolic" of their mouths speaking a command to bring fire

I have clearly and precisely stated that the two Witnesses will be literal prophets returned, they will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, and have literal bodies that die, lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, as a literal world watches in celebration 

A complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt 

Jesus Is The Lord

Edited January 14, 2022 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:03 AM, truth7t7 said:

I dont see a 7 year tribulation, it's my observation that Revelation 11:3 & Revelation 13:5 are parallel times representing 3.5 years?

I don't see a 7 year trib either. Pretrib has melded the whole time of the end into 'tribulation' then called that 'God's wrath'.  

I don't think there is an example of God's actual, poured out wrath, lasting very long. Forty days for the flood. A moment for Sodom. Certainly not 7 years. 

I think it will be the same at the end. Maybe some months at the very end is the time of wrath and it's duration. 

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Walter I find it hard to believe you acknowledge Moses/Aaron and the plagues of Egypt were "Literal" and you look at Revelation 11 in the (Two Witnesses) and want to symbolize the prophets returned

The Two Witnesses will bring literal plagues upon a literal world, have literal bodies that die, and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, as a literal world watches in celebration

The Two Witnesses are going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt 

Jesus Is The Lord

I have to agree. God will always send a prophet to oppose the evil one. I am convinced that all prophecy must come to pass literally as spoken and the Revelation is no exception, allowing for obvious symbolism of course.

I'm also convinced we will know when the end begins by these two witnesses. When we see them in the streets of Jerusalem, it's on.

[truth7t7]

28 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I have to agree. God will always send a prophet to oppose the evil one. I am convinced that all prophecy must come to pass literally as spoken and the Revelation is no exception, allowing for obvious symbolism of course.

I'm also convinced we will know when the end begins by these two witnesses. When we see them in the streets of Jerusalem, it's on.

Exactly, I believe the plan is to hide the two witnesses, because they are a direct indicator the tribulation has started and the end is coming?

The Preterist teaching that the Antichrist came and left in 70AD is deception, nobody's looking for the Man of Sin?

The teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus is one of the greatest deceptions, who's the walk on Christ going to be in Jerusalem, The Antichrist, and the teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on earth, where Jesus sits on a throne of David is paving his way for the future walk on Antichrist, scary!

Edited January 15, 2022 by truth7t7