A Prewrath Rapture question

[transmogrified]

10 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Where did Jesus say that 'all believers' are resurrected on the last day?  

Hello DeighAnn-

The resurrection of the dead is a foundational doctrine among 6 others listed in Hebrews 6: 

"Therefore leaving the principles of the foundation of Christ, let us go on unto perfection...not laying again the foundation of:

1) Repentance from dead works..

2) Faith toward God

3) Doctrine of baptisms

4) Laying on of hands

5) Resurrection of the dead

6) Eternal Judgment

The above doctrines are what the foundation of God consists of...it is this foundation we are to build on.

The resurrection of the dead is the key to understanding the rapture....if the resurrection of the dead were understood, pre-trib could have never gained acceptance.

So in a nutshell just focus on two scriptures to start with:

The first on is 1 Thess. 4:16 where it says "...the dead in Christ will rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

So although we don't know the day nor the hour, we can see there is a sequence of events that is being shown here...the dead in Christ are resurrected first before the rapture...so we have:

1) The Dead in Christ are raised FIRST (resurrection) 

2) Then, (immediately after the resurrection of the dead in Christ ) the rapture

So when some say 'nothing has to happen before the rapture...it could happen at any time,' it is not true...there is something that has to happen before the rapture and that is the resurrection.

So what does this mean? It means there is a sequence of events...if we know the resurrection of all believers takes place on the last day, we also would know there could be no rapture before the last day...Why? Because according to 1 Thess. 4 we know the dead in Christ are resurrected FIRST.

So where does it say 'all believers are resurrected at the last day?' There are 4 places in John 6 that Jesus talks about the resurrection on the last day...

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day..."

John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 6: 44 "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him' and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54 "Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life and I will raise him up at the last day."

 So the first one in 6:39 says "Of all which God has given me I should lose nothing, but will raise it up again at the last day.."

God gave all his sheep to Jesus as stated in John 10 27- 29

"My sheep hear my voice...and I know them and they follow me,..my Father which gave them me is greater than all..."

All God's sheep were given to Christ...as it says in Psalms 100:3

"Know ye that the Lord he is God and it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."

This is David and he is talking about God's people being his sheep...Jesus is talking about the sheep being his sheep...How did they become Jesus' sheep? God gave them all to Christ...this is what Jesus is saying here in John 6:40...'All that God has given me I will raise them up at the last day..' This is not just New Testament saints, and it is not just Old Testament saints, it is ALL that God gave to Christ...which means ALL the saints, both Old and New Testament will be resurrected on the last day.

So keep in mind that this resurrection of all the dead in Christ (meaning all the saints that were given to Christ) happens BEFORE the rapture, and keep in mind this resurrection that Jesus is talking about does not happen until the last day...not before the last day, not after the last day.

Also remember, he is not saying PART of those that God gave to me will be resurrected on the last day, and the other part of those that God gave me will be raised before the last day...NO. When he said ALL those that God gave me will be raised on the last day, there is no one left out...and remember, when God said ALL will be raised on the last day, this not only includes Old and New Testament saints, but also what are called tribulation saints as well...so in a nutshell... ALL the dead in Christ are raised at one time at the last day.

This is in agreement with Paul when he said "We shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." 

This is the mystery revealed to Paul...When he said 'I show you a mystery...that is what he means...he is showing you the mystery...and the mystery is not that part of the saints will be raised at one time, and another part of the saints will be raised at another time...NO. He is saying we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

The 'ALL' he is saying here is the same 'ALL' Jesus is referring to...All those that God gave to Christ...the last trump signifying the same time frame Jesus is referring to...What trumpet sounds on the last day? It is the 7th Trumpet in Revelation after the first six have sounded.

So what does all this mean? It means the first six trumpets also have to sound BEFORE there is any resurrection on the last day...meaning there are many things that have to happen before the rapture will take place.

So lets just go over to Rev. 11:18 and see what happens when the 7th Trumpet sounds...

First it says 'The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...' The kingdoms of this world do not become Christs until after the tribulation so this is not a pre-trib event...but what else does it say happens at the 7th Trumpet?

It says;

11:18 "...and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, both small and great."

Here is the contrast between Pre-trib and scripture....the pre-trib doctrine asserts the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded before the tribulation even starts, but here John is saying the time when the saints are resurrected, judged and rewarded is at the 7th trumpet, AFTER the tribulation, not BEFORE the tribulation...

This is what is meant by 'now is the time of the dead that they should be judged...' In order for the dead to be judged, they have to first be resurrected and this is what happens at the 7th Trumpet...the resurrection of the saints happens at the 7th Trumpet...

So look also WHO is included in this resurrection at the 7th Trumpet. Does it just say its time to reward the Old Testament saints? No. Does it say it is time to resurrect just the tribulation saints? No. It says now is the time he gives rewards to:

1) His servants the prophets...(All Prophets, both in the the  Old and New Testament)

2) And to the saints...(All saints, both in the Old and New Testament

3) To them that fear thy name, both small and great...(There is no one left out)

So in summary, both Paul and Jesus and John are all saying the same thing...All the saints will be resurrected at the same time, at the last trumpet, on the last day...it does not happen in stages for Paul said We shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye...a twinkle of an eye does not last 7 years...everyone is changed at the exact same time, at the last trump...not before the tribulation, but immediately after the tribulation.

14 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Didn't HE basically 'tell us' that 'a last day' for believers wasn't true when speaking with Martha?

No. Lazarus had died and Martha said to Jesus, 'If you had of been here my brother would not have died...Jesus said 'Thy brother shall live again...' Martha knew Lazarus would be resurrected at the last day and that is what she was thinking Jesus was talking about...but when Jesus told her her brother would rise again, he was telling her that he was going to raise him from the dead right then...Martha just misunderstood him to mean the final resurrection...Martha was right that she understood Lazarus would be resurrected at the last day...as indeed he will be, for he did die again and is now awaiting the last day resurrection and will be included with all the other saints that will be raised on that day.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 3/22/2022 at 8:22 AM, transmogrified said:

He didn't say 'These are the dead in Christ who have been resurrected...' he said 'these are those who came out of great tribulation..." this specific period of time that Jesus and Daniel spoke of. 

Where is 'this specific period' of time mentioned?  There have been other periods of great tribulation so why wouldn't they count?

Yes, of course in the world we have tribulation...it has been this way for thousands of years...the time frame the angel told John was that these saints came out of great tribulation and had washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

 The one thing that was brought up was these were saints in heaven in Chapter 7 so that proves there was a resurrection before the last day...as we have already gone over, there could be no saints in heaven before the last day if Jesus, John and Paul and others are correct...we can not assume Jesus Paul and John were wrong and there actually was saints who were resurrected to heaven before the last day...the only place we actually see wording where the saints were in heaven is in Rev. 19:1 right before they descend down to earth with Jesus to Armageddon on the last day. How and when did they get to heaven? They got there via the resurrection that took place on the last day.

The white robed group that no man could number that came out of every tribe kindred and nation are the nations that converted at the Second Coming. When Jesus comes it says he will judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and kingdom...(1 Tim. 4:1)

Two groups get judged...one is the living, and the other is the dead. They both get judged, but the judgment of the living is not the same as the judgment of the dead. The wheat and the tares, the sheep and goats, and the good and bad fish are all judgments of the dead...both of the good and of the bad. There is no opportunity for the dead to repent and accept Jesus...i.e. there is no alter call at the sheep and goat judgment...the sheep inherit the kingdom, the goats are cast into the fire...the wheat are gathered into the barn, the tares are cast into the fire...the good fish are gathered into vessels  and the bad fish are cast away.

However, the judgment of the living is different...they are not all killed as is put forth by some.

Those who overcome are made rulers over the nations...Rev. 2:26- "To him that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations"

What nations will the saints rule over if all the nations (people) alive at his return are killed? There would be none...

Psalms 22:27- "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee."

Ps. 72:11 - "Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; all nations shall serve him."

Ps. 82:8 - "Arise, O God, judge the earth; for thou shalt inherit all nations.'

Ps. 86:9 -"All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, Ol Lord and shall glorify thy name."

Isaiah 2:2 - "And it shall come to pass in that day (Second Coming) that the mountain of the Lords house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it..." 

Isaiah 25:7 - " And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations..."

Jer. 3:17 - "At that time (Second Coming) they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem; neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart." 

Daniel 7:14 - "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion..."

Zech. 14:16- "And it shall come to pass, that everyone that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles..."

Is. 2:4 - "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people' and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall the learn war any more." 

Micah 4:2 - "And many nations shall come and say, Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Zech. 2:11 -"And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, (Second Coming) and shall be  my people..."

Zech. 8:22 "Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord..."

As it states it says in Isaiah 2:4 He will rebuke many nations...remember this is the judgment of the living nations...although there are many that are killed during the tribulation there are nations which will be left of all those who came against Jerusalem and they go up from year to year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem...how is that nations are left and go up from year to year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem if they have all been killed?

It specifically states he rebukes them...this does not mean he kills them...and then when it says they are going up to learn of the Lords ways in Jerusalem, is because the heeded his rebuke...they converted and now they are learning war no more but are going up to  Jerusalem to worship God...these are natural living human beings who were alive at the return of Christ, who were not raptured, but who remained alive at the time Christ returned...seeing these people are still alive, they still have a choice to accept Jesus.

Here is another one about the rebuke of God to the nations: Rev. 2:26-27 "And he that overcomes will I give power over the nations; and he shall RULE them with a rod of iron..." He rules the nations..the nations have to be alive to be ruled.

Here is another one Micah 4:2 "And he shall judge among many people, and REBUKE strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spear into pruning hooks...he rebukes them, but he doesn't kill them...they take heed to his rebuke and it says they beat their swords into plowshares...in other words, they repented, in other words, they washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb...in other words all these nations that converted are those who John saw that came out of great tribulation...

The reason he said they came out of great tribulation, is because they are the ones who were alive at the time Christ returned...these are the nations that is said in Daniel serve God as it says here:

"And there was given him glory and a dominion and a kingdom that all people nations, an languages should serve him..."

Rev. 21:24 -"And the nations of them that are saved (washed their robes in the blood of the lamb) shall walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth (all the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.....( all the kings of the earth shall fall down before thee...Psalms 72:11) 

Rev. 19:15 -"And out of his mouth cometh a sharp two edged sword, that with it he should smite the nations and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."

Here is more clarity: He smites them...this means he rebukes them...it does not mean he kills them all, for it says he 'smites' them and then he 'rules' them with a rod of iron..." So the theme is consistent throughout scriptures along this line. Smiting does not mean killing them here in this context or he would not be then be also ruling them.

Rev. 15: 3 "Who shall not fear thee, Ol Lord, and glorify thy name? For thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest."

Rev. 12:5 "And she brought forth a child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron..." Of course this is Jesus and he is the one who will rule all these nations who are converted at the Second Coming...these are the nations who go into the 1000 year reign of Christ in natural bodies.. they eat, drink, live and die in natural bodies...

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

When did it become OK to NOT take the Lord and Saviour as your Lord and Saviour BEFORE HIS RETURN and still get another 'chance'?  (which is hard to ask because I do believe in 'A CHANCE' which some may see as 'another' but isn't 'another' if they didn't really have a proper first one, off topic I know)

Its not that it was OK to not accept the Lord...just like people today...its not OK what they are doing now, but that is why God grants people repentance...so they can make it right...these who come out of great tribulation are people who were sinners like we all were...they have the same opportunity as you and I have today. Remember, this opportunity is not to those who have died in sin...

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Life or Death, those were the choices.   His way or any other way.  

Yes, of course. If a person refuses to accept Jesus and dies in his sins...then he is subject to the second death...however if they repent they are not. Like I can say 'the wages of sin is death...' and it is for sure...but if I repent then I would not die, even though I sinned before.

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Which begets the question
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory  55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

WHEN does this take place or 'go into effect'?  

The saying 'death is swallowed up in victory goes into effect just like when Paul said in the scripture you quoted...it is when this mortal puts on immortality...at the Second Coming...The context To WHOM he is speaking is what is missed sometimes...Death is swallowed up in victory to who? To those who get immortality..those who get immortality are the believers who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, or who have died in Christ...it is not afforded to unbelievers...for example if the rapture happened tomorrow, death would be swallowed up in victory for me, a believer, I would get an immortal body, while an unbeliever who possibly was right next to me would still be in a natural body subject to death...

12 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

We have Satan bound, 'Death  swallowed up with NO STING and the grave with NO VICTORY. 

How then is there any DEATH DURING THE MILLENNIUM?  

Like it states, the nations which are left that go up from year to year are still in natural bodies...so it says 'them that are left' and 'many nations shall flow unto it...' and 'many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day..' and 'all nations shall serve him...' this is synonymous with 'these are those who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes...' 

It also states that we will be kings and priests...so the function of the glorified saints is that we rule and reign with Christ over the nations...they are still subject to death as there is another resurrection at the end of the 1000 years called the great white throne judgement...what does it say? It says 'Death and hell gave up the dead that were in them...the sea gave up the dead that were in it and whoever was not found written in the lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire..."

There would not be a resurrection at the end of the 1000 years if there were no dead people to resurrect...as it shows at Gog and Magog...when the nations of the world are again deceived by the Devil it says they go up against the camp of the saints and fire comes out of heaven and kills them...if everyone was in glorified bodies they could not be killed...

So remember, there are only two bodies Paul said...one is terrestrial and the other is celestial...in other words, there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body...there are no other choices...either you are in a glorified body that is like the angels, or you are in a natural body subject to death...as the very word 'mortal' means 'subject to death. So these nations go into the 1000 years in mortal bodies...we rule over them, and are priests and kings...in other words we are interceding for them during this time...some accept Jesus and some do not even in the 1000 years...just like it says..'and the nations that do not go up to worship the Lord in Jerusalem upon them shall be no rain...' So even with the Devil bound people can still sin, and die in sin, or they can choose to serve God and die in righteousness...both groups are resurrected at the Great White throne.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

On 3/22/2022 at 8:22 AM, transmogrified said:

This is the exact same event being described in Daniel when it says -"I beheld till the thrones were cast down (the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord) and the Ancient of days did sit (same as Matthew 25....when the Son of man comes, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory) ...his throne was like the fiery flame...thousands time ten thousands stood before him...the judgment was set and the books were opened..."

Is this at the BEGINNING or at the END of the Lords Day?
Because we have at the beginning

 

Ok very good question...Matthew 25 states 'When the Son of man comes in his glory (Second Coming) THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...this setting and the one in Daniel is the same setting...when the Ancient of Days did sit. How do we know? Because it says 'he beheld UNTIL the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of Days did sit...' The thrones are cast down at the 7th Trumpet...this is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. 

The rest of the passage is directly referring to the Second Coming in Daniel:

Dan. 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold one like unto the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, ...and there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom...

It then goes on to further confirm the timing...

Dan. 7:21 "I beheld and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them UNTIL the Ancient of Days did come (Second Coming) and judgment was given to the saints of the most high and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom...' Again, the time frame is the Second Coming, not the end of the 1000 years.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If we are like 'angels' in heaven upon resurrection, 'no taking or giving in marriage',  HOW could there be birth and death taking place?  

Right...there is no marriage and giving birth among the glorified saints, for as you said, we are like the angels and angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage, and of course the saints in glorified bodies will not die...however...the nations who enter into the 1000 year period will be natural bodies that will die...its like if Jesus came today and I was not ready but was alive at the time he returned...I would not get a glorified body...I could repent and be converted and follow Jesus but the resurrection and glorification of the saints  would have already happened by the time Jesus arrived on the earth with all his saints...Some of the misunderstanding comes because people may not realize there is a conversion of the nations and might be confused as to who will be alive during that time...of course it is not just glorified saints as many scriptures show. 

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IF you are going to say 'it's the nations' then HOW DID they SURVIVE the return of Christ having taken the mark of the beast when all those were killed?

 

It says if any man takes the mark he shall be tormented with fire and brimestone...and the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receives the mark of his name...

So the fire and brimestone is the punishment of the lake of fire...the lake of fire pertains to people who have died in their sins...these people who take the mark the beast are not tormented while they stand upon their feet...the punishment is AFTER they have died and have been resurrected and judged...this is when they are cast into this fire...but we have to remember all this will not happen if they repent before they die...which they can do as it will be seen.

We have to rely on what Jesus said...it seems some people think the New Testament is no longer in effect during the tribulation, but everything it says now, will still say so during the tribulation..

Yes, it says the angel said 'If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of god which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation and he shall be tormented with fire  and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb...." 

But we also here another voice from heaven saying "Come out of her my people that ye receive be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues..."

So the cry went out to who? It went out to his people that they should do what? That they should 'come out of her...' You would have to be in the system before you could be told to come out of it. And it also states if you do come out, you will not receive of her plagues.'

Of course you would have to repent of what you have done, but that is what washing your robes in the blood of the Lamb would mean.

The other scripture that of course is pertinent is that Jesus said 'All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men except the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost..."

Taking the mark would not be blasphemy of the Holy Ghost or the angel would not have given them a way out...

So we have God pouring out his plagues on some during that time, and it says 'they repented not to give God glory..' Well, they had the opportunity to repent and to give God glory and they chose not to do it...so they will be partakers of the plagues as it states, but God did give them a chance to repent.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If the whole world is deceived at the end, then how can there be 'great multitudes' that come out of it?

By conversion...of course they were deceived as it states...all whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life followed the beast. This is why Jesus rebukes the nations when he comes...because they were in the wrong. If it was impossible for them to repent they could not have beat their swords into plowshares.

The other scripture in Isaiah shows that God removes the vail that is upon all nations...
Is. 25:7 "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations..."

Yes, there was a covering and a vail over all nations...but Jesus said he would destroy it at the Second Coming.

This is also shown in Matthew 24 when it says "And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So there is a 'weeping and gnashing of teeth, but this is associated with the judgment of the wicked dead when they are cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels... the day of judgment after they have died and have been resurrected.

When it says 'all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him,' the same is said in Rev. 1:7 where it says "Behold he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him even those who pierced him and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him..."
 

So what is the mourning and the wailing about? Remember in Rev. 19 it says Jesus comes down from heaven and it says he will SMITE the nations and RULE them with a rod of iron..."

So what is Jesus going to be doing when he comes down from heaven...? Is he going to kill everyone or is he going to do what he said he would do...i.e. he will REBUKE the nations and then they will repent...this is what is meant by 'all the kindreds of the earth shall MOURN and WAIL because of him...they are not being tormented by Jesus with thunderbolts or something...he is coming and rebuking the nations and giving them opportunity to repent.

Just like it says when Israel sees Jesus..it says 'And they shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him...as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn...In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem,...

The veil will be taken off Israel's eyes and it says in that day God will pour out upon the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..."

There is much more to go over, but this post is probably too long already...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

[transmogrified]

Sorry...I accidentally posted this twice...

Edited March 24, 2022 by transmogrified

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Three little dots upper right corner of post box: delete option (took me awhile to find it too)

I only found a report, share and  edit tab and it didn't allow me to delete...what am I missing?

 

[OneLight]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

I only found a report, share and  edit tab and it didn't allow me to delete...what am I missing?

 

If I remember correctly, the options we are presented are according to grouping.  This may of changed since I was an admin, but I believe since you cannot see the delete option it is still active.  Our grouping is done by post count.  Since you only have a few hundred posts, and are grouped as an advanced member, you may have to wait until your group changes. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/23/2022 at 12:46 PM, Josheb said:

Amen! 

However.....

I have repeatedly asked the posts be kept about the posts, and not the posters. Comments like, "If you wish to believe_________, but I believe                ," in a manner that inextricably pits personally posters against each other that is not helpful or respectful. I previously offered to return to the thread if and when there was a return to op-relevant topical content and it looked like that was happened but now the personal content is re-appearing. I have asked for change once, twice, thrice, many times and the problem persists, the character of the exchange has not changed for the better so I am taking my leave from the thread. 

 

What I wish to believe is God's written Word as written. At no point have I posted personal or eschatological interpretations of the written Word. Every claim about the written Word I have posted is something the written Word itself plainly states. Some of my observations - whether in agreement or disagreement - have been to note the absence of something in the written Word that was claimed about the written Word. The point being we should not make claims about what is written if and when it is not actually written that way. It's happened several times in this thread.

 

It is great that we get to discuss the written Word of God. Not so great some try to make it about the posters. 

 

 

.

I think it necessary we make comments about the scriptures we post. Our very differences come from the different way each person reads a post. Just a minor example not related to this thread:

1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1)

Some of the differences believers find they have with others is that they don't pay strict attention to WHOM a scripture is pointed. It is very clear here that James is writing to Jews. It is possible therefore that he might write something that disagrees with Paul's gospel to the Gentiles.

When you insist that "quickly" does not fit 2000 years, are you not showing your belief?

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Biblican said:

You've demonstrated that you don't understand how prophetic visions are constructer or interpreted. We have to agree to disagree. 

Paul was teaching from Matthew 24.

Please explain how Paul could copy from Matthew when he wrote around 50 AD and Matthew wrote around 80 AD. What you suggest is impossible.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Biblican said:

Y When Jesus comes He sends the angels to gather His elect before the time of wrath. The dead in Christ have to rise at that time because every saint must be at the marriage supper of the Lamb. This occurs while the bowl judgments are being poured out on the beast.

How strange! John saw the raptured church in heaven in Revelation 7, yet you imagine they will be caught up in chapter 16!

It seems you disagree with John.

[Biblican]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Please explain how Paul could copy from Matthew when he wrote around 50 AD and Matthew wrote around 80 AD. What you suggest is impossible.

Jesus' teachings were in existence before Matthew wrote them down. 

[Biblican]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

How strange! John saw the raptured church in heaven in Revelation 7, yet you imagine they will be caught up in chapter 16!

It seems you disagree with John.

There are two churches in chapter seven, the 144 and the church that goes through the tribulation. We see them again in chapter 14 and 15. The 144 have been raptured and are in heaven in 14 and the others are seen in 15 as the martyrs in heaven after the tribulation. John's vision in chapter seven is merely introducing us to those two groups, showing us that the 144 are sealed for their protection and the others have to go through it. They are the left behind and those who come to the Lord during the tribulation.  Prophetically, it is a mistake to assume that all the seals happen when they are opened. That is not the case and does not make sense. The martyrs are vindicated at the end when Jesus returns which the earthquake in chapter 6 is prophesying. The actual even happens much later at the very end.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is incorrect. 

The conclusion is reached because verse 1:1 is singled out and treated as definitive when in point of fact verse 4:5 tells us he is writing to an audience that has the Spirit indwelling, and verse 5:4 tells us he was writing to those who believed in the Lord of the Sabbath. They are NOT Jews. They may have been Jewish converts, but they were Christians, not Jews. Remember: in the beginning Christianity was considered a sect of Judaism. Converts to Christ - whether Jewish or Gentile beforehand - were brought into the twelve tribes. This goes all the way back to the earliest covenants right on through to the history of Acts and the revelations found in Hebrews.  

These are just more examples of how Dispensationalism gets scripture wrong, how Dispensationalism builds upon its errors, Dispensationalism has influenced your end times views over what is plainly stated in the written Word, and another example of scripture not being read for all that it says because of mistakes like proof-texting. 

Did you not understand how 120 in the upper room were ALL filled with the Holy Spirit and they were all Jews? 

Why is NOW not taking scripture for what it says. Sure, others may well read James' letter, but He wrote in the first sentence to whom he was addressing it.

Yes, IN THE SPIRIT the wall of division was broken down and the both have become one. But did you notice that James still addressed His letter to the "twelve tribes."  That certainly does not mean to Gentiles but to Christians from the 12 tribes.

It is amazing how some people can never be corrected. Just saying...