A Prewrath Rapture question

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Biblican said:

There are two churches in chapter seven, the 144 and the church that goes through the tribulation. We see them again in chapter 14 and 15. The 144 have been raptured and are in heaven in 14 and the others are seen in 15 as the martyrs in heaven after the tribulation. John's vision in chapter seven is merely introducing us to those two groups, showing us that the 144 are sealed for their protection and the others have to go through it. They are the left behind and those who come to the Lord during the tribulation.  Prophetically, it is a mistake to assume that all the seals happen when they are opened. That is not the case and does not make sense. The martyrs are vindicated at the end when Jesus returns which the earthquake in chapter 6 is prophesying. The actual even happens much later at the very end.

I really don't believe much of what you write. Sorry.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Biblican said:

Jesus' teachings were in existence before Matthew wrote them down. 

Chances are great Paul did not know about them. He went out into the wilderness after He was born again, not to Jerusalem.

[OneLight]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Chances are great Paul did not know about them. He went out into the wilderness after He was born again, not to Jerusalem.

Saul, who became Paul, is recorded in scripture to of been a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin, given the legal writ to hunt down Christians and arrest them.  One would think Saul would of had to of been someone high in the judicial system to be given such a task, and if given the task, he had to of had plenty of knowledge about what he was standing against.  Saul was present at the stoning of Stephen also.  I believe Saul, or Paul, knew the teachings of Jesus.

[transmogrified]

On 3/22/2022 at 11:35 PM, transmogrified said:

I believe the OT saints, including the beheaded and Two Witnesses will be raised "on the last day" at the 7th vial.

It is acknowledged in the above quote that the OT saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses will be resurrected on the Last day.. 

Jesus did not say 'The Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses will I raise on the Last day....'

Jesus said 'Of ALL the Father gave me I should lose nothing, but would raise it up at the last day...' The Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses are not the only saints given to Jesus...Jesus said his Father had given Jesus his sheep..."My Father, which gave them me..." John 10:27-29) God did not just give Jesus the Old Testament saints, the beheaded, and the two witnesses...he said 'ALL mine are thine, and thine are mine..." (John 17:10)

Are the only sheep that belongs to God  consist of the Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses? Of course not, but one can not be Pre trib and yet believe these scriptures...The doctrine itself PROHIBITS one from accepting it...These scriptures MUST be rejected in order to keep pre trib alive...The resurrection and rewards of all the saints specifically shown to occur at the 7th trumpet MUST be rejected in order to keep pre trib alive...

Jesus said 'Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood he would raise up at the last day..' The beheaded and the two witnesses are not the only ones who drink his blood and eat his flesh....' Jesus has ALL the New Testament believers included in the description of who he will raise on the last day...'

There is no valid explanation that has ever been given for this...it was said 'We are to  take ALL the scriptures and formulate our doctrine..'. These are scriptures, but they are not taken...Why?    

On 3/23/2022 at 9:29 AM, iamlamad said:

I believe the bible shows us at least four resurrections at different times: Jesus' resurrection, the resurrection of the church, then the resurrection of the Old Testament saints (They are not "in Christ") and finally all those under the "second death" resurrection.

Of course it is scriptural and plain to see that Christ was the first that should rise and that he is called the first fruits of them that slept...and it is also easy to see that it says 'Christ the first fruits, and afterward they that are Christs at his coming.' 

But breaking up the phrase 'the saints' or the 'dead in Christ' into two categories of Old and New Testament is not shown by who Jesus said he would raise on the Last day, nor who would be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th trumpet..

He did not say it was now the time of the dead for 'The Old Testament saints to be rewarded..' He did not say it was the time of the dead for beheaded to be resurrected...' He did not say it was the time of the dead for 'some of those who feared God, both small and great to be resurrected...' But even though these scriptures do not say that, it MUST be believed that way  for pre trib to exist. 

These are all ADDITIONS to the text in order to keep pre trib alive. Jesus nor John made these distinctions and the only phrase we have to rely on is 'the dead in Christ' and try to make it appear that the Old Testament saints were not in Christ. The first thing is Jesus and John would not have worded who would get resurrected and rewarded in such broad terms if they knew some 2000 years of saints would not be included...but the other issue is the phrase 'the dead in Christ.'

And it is not just the Old Testament saints that are not accepted into the 'dead in Christ' category...even the tribulation saints are not allowed in...it is even questioned if they were ever born again.

Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth..." This is pertaining to the saints who die during the tribulation, and it even says these die in the Lord, but the ONLY reason they can not be admitted into the category of the 'dead in Christ' is to keep pre trib alive...If they are admitted into the group called the 'dead in christ' in 1 Thess. 4 then pre trib has a problem...and the problem is with pre trib...not with the scripture...the scripture has them in the right category, pre trib will not allow them into that category because it would throw the timeline off completely and they would cease to be pre trib.

Rev. 20:4 even has those who were beheaded by the beast and for the Word of God and did not take his mark in their hand or forehead in the first resurrection...As it says:

"....and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years....this is the first resurrection."

They are in the first resurrection...showing they died in Christ, they have the witness of Jesus, showing they have the spirit of God, as it says 'The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.." and then it says they did this FOR THE WORD OF GOD.' Who follows the Word of God? Is it the unbelievers who have never been born again? Of course not. Do the people who have never been saved follow the Word of God? Of course not. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

But go back to Israel not being dead in Christ. The analogy given by Paul in Romans 11 was what? Israel was the NATURAL branches...and what are branches connected to? The vine. And who is the vine? Of course Jesus said he was the true vine and we are the branches.

So when it says 'some of the branches were broken off, and we were grafted in, what were we grafted into? We were grafted into  Christ, who was the very vine they were cut off from...And what happens when they get grafted back in again? They will be grafted back into Christ, the very same Christ who they were cut off from because of unbelief.

What was placed over the cross of Jesus...'This is Jesus, the King of the Jews..' Is this true or not? Of course it is true...the Old testament scriptures said what? Behold, THY KING cometh unto thee...' Who came riding into Jerusalem? It was the King of the Jews. When Zechariah said 'Thy King cometh unto thee, did he mean Jesus had just became their king at that time? NO. He was their King before he rode into Jerusalem...he was their King when he led them through the Red Sea...All the scriptures that show God as being the King of Israel in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ. He was God manifest in the flesh...

When believers in the Old Testament died, they died in Christ...they were the natural branches that were in Christ, the vine...Their life came from the vine...the vine is Jesus...they were in Jesus, when they were cut off from Jesus they died spiritually, when they accept Jesus at the Second Coming they will be back in Christ again. 

Pre trib could not exist if these scriptures would be admitted at face value. They can not be admitted because of the timing issue.. A pre trib resurrection for one category of saints REQUIRES there to be another one for the group that was not included. And it is pre trib that requires it..it is not scripture. Scripture paints a completely different scenario and has different requirements, requirements that can not be met and still be pre trib.

Ask yourself...'Why is it that I cannot believe what Jesus said in John 6 about who will be resurrected?" It is not because scripture REQUIRES you to believe only Old Testament saints and the two witnesses, and the beheaded will be raise on the last day...scriptures says exactly the opposite...The thing REQUIRING you to add or delete certain categories of people from who is resurrected on the last day is the DOCTRINE of pre trib. 

The doctrine states...'not everyone will be raised on the last day...only a select group of saints...' That was NOT scripture telling you that..that was the doctrine of pre trib telling you that...if you were to step back and just read what John 6 and Rev. 11:18 says without the influence of pre trib, you would never in a million years think there was a certain category missing out of the words 'ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE' , and 'ALL THOSE WHO GOD HAS GIVEN ME...' 

Please provide evidence that 'All those that believe' means part of the those who believe...Please provide evidence that 'all those who God gave to Christ means only part of those God gave to Christ...'

And remember, the WORDS themselves are what carries the meaning...when the words are added to or taken from it alters the meaning...that is why it is prohibited to add to his words...These are not imaginary words when it says 'all that God has given me...' Remember, this is the scripture...this is Jesus the chief cornerstone, this is the stone the builders rejected in order to keep the false Pharisee religion going...If they had of accepted him, it would have been the death of their religion..

So there is a choice here....Pre trib and these other scriptures can not both be true..he cannot raise all the believers on the last day and also not raise all the believers  on the last day.

 

Quote

We have to form doctrine from what we have. And we do the best we can do to form doctrine that fits ALL the endtimes scriptures.

Blessings to you- Gary

Edited March 25, 2022 by transmogrified

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is acknowledged in the above quote that the OT saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses will be resurrected on the Last day.. 

Jesus did not say 'The Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses will I raise on the Last day....'

Jesus said 'Of ALL the Father gave me I should lose nothing, but would raise it up at the last day...' The Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses are not the only saints given to Jesus...Jesus said his Father had given Jesus his sheep..."My Father, which gave them me..." John 10:27-29) God did not just give Jesus the Old Testament saints, the beheaded, and the two witnesses...he said 'ALL mine are thine, and thine are mine..." (John 17:10)

Are the only sheep that belongs to God  consist of the Old Testament saints, the beheaded and the two witnesses? Of course not, but one can not be Pre trib and yet believe these scriptures...The doctrine itself PROHIBITS one from accepting it...These scriptures MUST be rejected in order to keep pre trib alive...The resurrection and rewards of all the saints specifically shown to occur at the 7th trumpet MUST be rejected in order to keep pre trib alive...

Jesus said 'Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood he would raise up at the last day..' The beheaded and the two witnesses are not the only ones who drink his blood and eat his flesh....' Jesus has ALL the New Testament believers included in the description of who he will raise on the last day...'

There is no valid explanation that has ever been given for this...it was said 'We are to  take ALL the scriptures and formulate our doctrine..'. These are scriptures, but they are not taken...Why?    

Of course it is scriptural and plain to see that Christ was the first that should rise and that he is called the first fruits of them that slept...and it is also easy to see that it says 'Christ the first fruits, and afterward they that are Christs at his coming.' 

But breaking up the phrase 'the saints' or the 'dead in Christ' into two categories of Old and New Testament is not shown by who Jesus said he would raise on the Last day, nor who would be resurrected and rewarded at the 7th trumpet..

He did not say it was now the time of the dead for 'The Old Testament saints to be rewarded..' He did not say it was the time of the dead for beheaded to be resurrected...' He did not say it was the time of the dead for 'some of those who feared God, both small and great to be resurrected...' But even though these scriptures do not say that, it MUST be believed that way  for pre trib to exist. 

These are all ADDITIONS to the text in order to keep pre trib alive. Jesus nor John made these distinctions and the only phrase we have to rely on is 'the dead in Christ' and try to make it appear that the Old Testament saints were not in Christ. The first thing is Jesus and John would not have worded who would get resurrected and rewarded in such broad terms if they knew some 2000 years of saints would not be included...but the other issue is the phrase 'the dead in Christ.'

And it is not just the Old Testament saints that are not accepted into the 'dead in Christ' category...even the tribulation saints are not allowed in...it is even questioned if they were ever born again.

Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth..." This is pertaining to the saints who die during the tribulation, and it even says these die in the Lord, but the ONLY reason they can not be admitted into the category of the 'dead in Christ' is to keep pre trib alive...If they are admitted into the group called the 'dead in christ' in 1 Thess. 4 then pre trib has a problem...and the problem is with pre trib...not with the scripture...the scripture has them in the right category, pre trib will not allow them into that category because it would throw the timeline off completely and they would cease to be pre trib.

Rev. 20:4 even has those who were beheaded by the beast and for the Word of God and did not take his mark in their hand or forehead in the first resurrection...As it says:

"....and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years....this is the first resurrection."

They are in the first resurrection...showing they died in Christ, they have the witness of Jesus, showing they have the spirit of God, as it says 'The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.." and then it says they did this FOR THE WORD OF GOD.' Who follows the Word of God? Is it the unbelievers who have never been born again? Of course not. Do the people who have never been saved follow the Word of God? Of course not. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

But go back to Israel not being dead in Christ. The analogy given by Paul in Romans 11 was what? Israel was the NATURAL branches...and what are branches connected to? The vine. And who is the vine? Of course Jesus said he was the true vine and we are the branches.

So when it says 'some of the branches were broken off, and we were grafted in, what were we grafted into? We were grafted into  Christ, who was the very vine they were cut off from...And what happens when they get grafted back in again? They will be grafted back into Christ, the very same Christ who they were cut off from because of unbelief.

What was placed over the cross of Jesus...'This is Jesus, the King of the Jews..' Is this true or not? Of course it is true...the Old testament scriptures said what? Behold, THY KING cometh unto thee...' Who came riding into Jerusalem? It was the King of the Jews. When Zechariah said 'Thy King cometh unto thee, did he mean Jesus had just became their king at that time? NO. He was their King before he rode into Jerusalem...he was their King when he led them through the Red Sea...All the scriptures that show God as being the King of Israel in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ. He was God manifest in the flesh...

When believers in the Old Testament died, they died in Christ...they were the natural branches that were in Christ, the vine...Their life came from the vine...the vine is Jesus...they were in Jesus, when they were cut off from Jesus they died spiritually, when they accept Jesus at the Second Coming they will be back in Christ again. 

Pre trib could not exist if these scriptures would be admitted at face value. They can not be admitted because of the timing issue.. A pre trib resurrection for one category of saints REQUIRES there to be another one for the group that was not included. And it is pre trib that requires it..it is not scripture. Scripture paints a completely different scenario and has different requirements, requirements that can not be met and still be pre trib.

Ask yourself...'Why is it that I cannot believe what Jesus said in John 6 about who will be resurrected?" It is not because scripture REQUIRES you to believe only Old Testament saints and the two witnesses, and the beheaded will be raise on the last day...scriptures says exactly the opposite...The thing REQUIRING you to add or delete certain categories of people from who is resurrected on the last day is the DOCTRINE of pre trib. 

The doctrine states...'not everyone will be raised on the last day...only a select group of saints...' That was NOT scripture telling you that..that was the doctrine of pre trib telling you that...if you were to step back and just read what John 6 and Rev. 11:18 says without the influence of pre trib, you would never in a million years think there was a certain category missing out of the words 'ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE' , and 'ALL THOSE WHO GOD HAS GIVEN ME...' 

Please provide evidence that 'All those that believe' means part of the those who believe...Please provide evidence that 'all those who God gave to Christ means only part of those God gave to Christ...'

And remember, the WORDS themselves are what carries the meaning...when the words are added to or taken from it alters the meaning...that is why it is prohibited to add to his words...These are not imaginary words when it says 'all that God has given me...' Remember, this is the scripture...this is Jesus the chief cornerstone, this is the stone the builders rejected in order to keep the false Pharisee religion going...If they had of accepted him, it would have been the death of their religion..

So there is a choice here....Pre trib and these other scriptures can not both be true..he cannot raise all the believers on the last day and also not raise all the believers  on the last day.

 

Blessings to you- Gary

Gary, you can argue "till the cows come home" that Jesus included all that would ever come to Him in the future, Jew and Gentile alike, for that  "on the last day" resurrection.  The problem with that theory is that it ignores Paul's writing.  It is not wise to put more weight, so to speak, on one verse and ignore another verse.

Perhaps in your mind you can make 1 Thes. 4 & 5 say "after the tribulation of those days" but I cannot. I know that was not Paul's intent. His intent is clear to me: HIS rapture/gathering would come just before wrath.

John "clinched this" timing, so to speak, by showing us the just-raptured church in heaven right after the start of wrath.

On the other hand, perhaps you can't in your mind see that Jesus was talking to Jews about their resurrection because the Gentile church did not yet exist when Jesus said those words. That is the only way I can put this apparent conflict of scripture together. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps you are wrong.

You are right, prewrath and pretrib cannot both be true.

Question: how do you put together the cosmic signs "after the tribulation" in Matthew 24, and the signs at the 6th seal? Do you see them as the same sign, as Van Kampen and Rosenthal did? Where do you believe the 70th-week will begin in Revelation?

I mention them because they wrote the first two books that began the prewrath theory - as far as I know.

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The doctrine states

Classic pretrib doctrine states the rapture in Rev. 4:1. You and I both know that is bogus.

Classic pretrib doctrine believes the 70th week starts with the first seal. I know that is bogus. Perhaps like you, I did not form my beliefs from any camp of believers. When God pushed me into studying the end times, I determined to know nothing unless HE taught me. I have not changed my mind.

I believe the rapture will be pretrib because I read that in 1st and 2nd thessalonians. And I see the proof of it in the raptured church in heaven before John begins the 70th week.

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When believers in the Old Testament died, they died in Christ.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that. They died trusting (faith) in the Old Covenant. They believed their sins were covered, and their faith would put them in right standing with God. However, it was IMPOSSIBLE For them to be "born again." That is what "in Christ" means - the new birth. The new birth could not come until Jesus died and rose again.

Quote

A pre trib resurrection for one category of saints REQUIRES there to be another one for the group that was not included. And it is pre trib that requires it..it is not scripture.

Again I have to disagree. If we follow John's chronology, the church was raptured just before wrath as Paul states, and was seen in heaven shortly after that. Then the WEEK passes with tribulation saints murdered, then John shows us the "first" or chief resurrection. Why there? I suspect it was because it was just after  "the last day," and all those who died during the week as believers were then raised. 

"The last day" will be marked by the 7th vial poured out and the words, "it is done." Did you notice the world's worst earthquake there? I am convinced that earthquake will be caused by God resurrecting all those who died before the flood. The flood probably scattered their body "dust" for thousands of miles. But God will bring that dust together to reform their bodies. That is going to came a horrendous earthquake, just as is written. I think that earthquake pinpoints the time the Old Testament saints rise.

Therefore, I see scriptural evidence against what you are teaching. I cannot change that. Oh, scripture SHOWS us the other resurrection! 

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the ONLY reason they can not be admitted into the category of the 'dead in Christ' is to keep pre trib alive

I put them in the category of the Tribulation saints. Whether they will be a part of the Bride of Christ is unknown to me because I can find no scripture either way.  I see no reason why then could not be "born again." Without a doubt they pass the Romans 10:9 & 10 test. They believe Christ rose from the dead, and they confess Him as Lord. Since the marriage and supper will be delayed unto some unknown time after "the last day" Perhaps they will be a part of the Bride.

Did you ever notice that the parable of the ten virgins was not about the bride of Christ, but was about others—perhaps guests? What does the door being shut (at the time of the rapture?) mean? I am not an expert on parables.

[Biblican]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chances are great Paul did not know about them. He went out into the wilderness after He was born again, not to Jerusalem.

He would have gotten the gospel from the man who prayed for him when he got his sight back and the others then. After that he left then came back to Jerusalem and got confirmation that he was receiving from the Lord. He visited Peter and would have gotten all the rest of Jesus' teachings from him.

[Biblican]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I really don't believe much of what you write. Sorry.

That's because you can't see it prophetically. Like I said, if you don't have the gift to interpret dreams, these visions are going to be misinterpreted. They can't be read like a regular book.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Biblican said:

He would have gotten the gospel from the man who prayed for him when he got his sight back and the others then. After that he left then came back to Jerusalem and got confirmation that he was receiving from the Lord. He visited Peter and would have gotten all the rest of Jesus' teachings from him.

Paul got HIS gospel revealed to him by our Lord. 

Gal. 1:

¹¹ But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

¹² For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

He did not "copy" from anyone but Our Lord.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Biblican said:

That's because you can't see it prophetically. Like I said, if you don't have the gift to interpret dreams, these visions are going to be misinterpreted. They can't be read like a regular book.

I choose to meditate on scripture, pray much in the Spirit, and wait for the Lord to reveal His intent in the scriptures. It works.

[Biblican]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul got HIS gospel revealed to him by our Lord. 

Gal. 1:

¹¹ But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

¹² For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

He did not "copy" from anyone but Our Lord.

He got the gospel from the Lord but he also said he conferred with Peter. He would have received the details of Jesus' Olivet discourse from the disciples. Paul was teaching what Jesus taught about the timing of the first resurrection.