Hell

[Hobie_]

On 1/22/2022 at 6:33 PM, enoob57 said:

 

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

taken from Clark's scholarship...

 

The issue is that God can resurrect those who are dead, but if they are punished with eternal death, they are gone forever, they cease to exist. So its eternal life or eternal death, so when the Bible says the wicked will burn 'forever' or what seems to be suffering punishment endlessly, it does NOT necessarily mean the ceaseless ages of eternity; it simply means 'until it is done/accomplished'. To say those in hell will burn forever totally uproots the following verses and many more:

Isaiah 47: 9-14 "But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

Malachi 4:1-3  "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a 'eternally burning' hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.

Psalms 37:20  "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
Psalms 112:10  "The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28  "The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish."
Psalms 68:2  "As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is us that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us. This verse is pretty clear...
Psalm 104:35  "Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD."

We see the wicked will become 'no more'; a verse that says it plainly. The results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Hobie_

[Hobie_]

This one is another one that makes it clear..

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." 

If we were supposed to take 'eternal fire' as meaning it would be on fire burning forever then those cities would still be burning today; they are not of course. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities have never been rebuilt and will never be, they have 'ceased to exist.'

[Starise]

22 hours ago, Josheb said:

My regrets for entering the conversation late, but can we arrive at a definition of "hell" before we discuss the topic further? 

 

I ask because for several reasons. First, the term "hell" is not used in the Old Testament. Second, the term "hell" is a Greek term found only in the New Testament and the Greek term is a reference to pagan mythologies (not literally Greek ones - Hel is a Norse god, not a Greek one, not a Hebrew god, and most definitely NOT the God of Jesus). Third, Jesus used several terms to describe the eternal disposition alluded to in the op (sheol, hell, hades, gehenna, etc.). We all know this. We all also know that Jesus radically altered or corrected the views of these places. Sheol was the greave where the dead know nothing (ancient Judaism did not hold to the existence of an afterlife). Hell and hades were the realm of Pluto, Thanatos, Dis Pater, Orcus and others. In Egypt it was the land of Anubis and Osirus. Mot, Nergal, Ereshkigal, the realm of Maskan-Sapir, Veles, Arawn, Cichol, Manus..... etc., etc. There were more gods of the dead known to the ancient Mediterraneans than we can shake a stick at. 

Jesus was NOT teaching paganism. 

We ALL know he did not do so. We also know it isn't likely Jesus spoke or taught in Greek. He may have taught in Hebrew, but the general consensus is he spoke Aramaic. It's likely the gospel of Matthew was first written in Aramaic and if that is true then none of the Greek terms found in the manuscripts are likely to be the ones Matthew originally used - or the ones Jesus originally used. For all we know Jesus may have used only two terms: Sheol and Gehenna, because those are the Hebrew terms with which his first-century Jewish audience would have been familiar. If he used pagan terminology it may well have been any number of names but in no way should we understand any of those gods to be gods Jesus validated. 

 

Lastly, in most of the surrounding paganisms the grave was a place where people lived a conscious but miserable existence under the rule of a lesser god. That's what hell was in the understanding of most first-century peoples. That is not what Jesus taught. Nothing Jesus ever taught can be construed to conflict with the one God-that-is-One Creator God of scripture. All other gods are idols. We are to have no idols, nor worship (acknowledge) other gods. Idols are nothing. The Greeks and Romans had a place called the Elysian Fields, the pastural land at the foot of Mt. Olympus where the noblest of people would be sent when they died. They had to be "deified" in life to earn that privilege. Pagan deification did not literally make a person a god; it simply gave them a divine, elevated human status. 

Jesus IS God. 

What Jesus taught is fundamentally and radically different. 

Lastly, THE most fundamental difference is that Jesus conquered death. This is the gospel: God incarnate defeated death and reconciled humanity to Himself. Jesus is King of Kings because his victory is greater even than Caesar's! 

 

I can elaborate more but I trust this is sufficient to provide a basis for the need to define our terms. When Christians speak of hell we are NOT using paganisms. I would venture to say the only reason we use the Greek/Norse term is because of tradition; that of the language found in the manuscripts, which were written in Greek. Anyone interested in the doctrinal differences common in (mainstream, orthodox) Christianity can read the Zondervan Crosspoints series book, "Four Views on Hell," or its alternative version by the same name (I prefer the former, but they are basically the same discussions). 

 

 

So, Starise, how are we to understand hell being asserted in the op, or for the purposes of this dicussion?

My regrets as well. I have been unable recently to return to this thread with the kind of time necessary to give it the study it demands. I say it takes as long as it takes though to get through it. 

You expanded on my thoughts here as to pagan associations of hell by going into a bit more detail. I'm sure with the leads you gave anyone could pursue a further investigation into the pagan attachments on hell clearly unchristian in origin. Not that every view that isn't coming directly from scripture is baseless and unfounded, but many if not most are when it comes to comparing. Surely any differences never favor a pagan view over a biblical view for me. If it supports, it expands. If it doesn't I disregard it as pagan mumbo jumbo.

For the purpose of this thread I tried to be clear that 'hell' in this study is strictly the place mentioned in the bible where unsaved men and fallen angels end up. It can be a difficult study because there are so many pagan trip wires some might recognize as biblical ideas. It may take some time to get through that part of it before we can get to the nitty gritty of a study. I believe your post helped us to better see some of those obstacles to better understanding. Thanks.

For those who quoted me, I apologize if I haven't responded. I am only reading page 3 of 6 or 7? pages so far.

This is in no way MY thread and my input is only one of many. I appreciate the input so far from those who have various thoughts on the matter. While I clearly do have my views and leanings, I am more than willing to change based on better info. I would only ask everyone else here be willing to do the same if the need arises.

-Tim

[Jedi4Yahweh]

5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree with you, only our Bible is inspired, inerrant and infallible. I have a question for you, and would also like to comment.

I agree in part.  The first 5 books of the bible (the Torah) is the foundation for all other biblical inspired writings. With that said, do you believe the KJV and Geneva bible were fallible and errant because they both contained the apocrypha?  The KJV and Geneva bible were the bibles that our reformation fathers used which contained the apocrypha.  It was around the early 1800 when modern church leaders decided to remove the apocrypha from the KJV and other bibles.  Did the bible become inspired, inerrant, and infallible after the 1800's?  Martin Luther wanted Daniel, James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelations, and parts of Peters and Johns writings removed from the bible as well, because it did not fit his theology.  Who decides what is inspired and infallible or not?  The Septuagint is the oldest known biblical cannon that was canonized many centuries before Christ and contained the apocrypha and was used and quoted from by the Apostles. 

Reminds me of a quote from Einstein:  If facts fit don't your theory, change the facts - Einstein.   In Martin Luther's case, if scriptures don't fit your theology change the scriptures.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Jedi4Yahweh

[Starise]

@Hobie_ I was recently reading Isaiah chapter 47 and have come across some of these other scriptures you quoted. 

These are the kinds of references we need to look at in order to better get at the true nature of hell in my opinion. 

In attempting to be objective, why is the word eternal used at all? Why not simply say they were burned up? I would be interested to look deeper into the original texts they get these translations from. It seems to me that if they intended to say the wicked will be burned up the word eternal would not be in the same sentence.

Neither does the bible elaborate in the state of those condemned in any detail that makes the meaning decisive in all cases. I could say a couple was divorced for ever. In one sense that is true. They aren't perpetually being divorced, yet we could say they are eternally divorced because they will never be married again. This isn't common terminology in our time though. It might have been more so back then.

@Jedi4Yahweh

I think we probably have enough to go on to get an accurate answer without going to the apocrypha books. It is interesting to see how the bible itself has changed since the 1800's. You seem to think those books shed more light on the subject, so much so as to include them in a discussion that we had to know was going to be contentious since there are varying views on what books should be included and which books should not. Some will say that God Gave us our final version. I am not so sure. I say this because God has a special warning in Revelation for anyone who adds to or takes away from the word of God.

That warning would not be necessary at all if it never happened.

While it's interesting for discussion to knock about which books fit and which don't. I'm not so sure it's furthering this discussion. . Not that I wouldn't like to know more.

Is it possible to look at only the words of Jesus and come away with an accurate view?

4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I agree with you, only our Bible is inspired, inerrant and infallible. I have a question for you, and would also like to comment.

How do we know for certain we have all of the bible  though? Could some of it have been omitted? We see that actively happening on FB, twitter and YouTube. Who is to say it hasn't happened to the bible?

People seem to go between two extremes- Either no way, could not have happened, never happened, God made sure we have all of the word to the other extreme- The bible has been meddled  with by various groups over the years.

We tend to dismiss it when we see it because we can label groups as cults in the modern times, yet if there were no other versions to compare with, if all past versions were burned what would we be left with?

We know there was some tampering. We have proof of it from reading historical documents as @Jedi4Yahweh mentions.

How far do we take it? Maybe a good discussion for another thread since this one is burying the one on hell.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Starise

[Hobie_]

18 hours ago, Starise said:

@Hobie_ I was recently reading Isaiah chapter 47 and have come across some of these other scriptures you quoted. 

These are the kinds of references we need to look at in order to better get at the true nature of hell in my opinion. 

In attempting to be objective, why is the word eternal used at all? Why not simply say they were burned up? I would be interested to look deeper into the original texts they get these translations from. It seems to me that if they intended to say the wicked will be burned up the word eternal would not be in the same sentence.

Neither does the bible elaborate in the state of those condemned in any detail that makes the meaning decisive in all cases. I could say a couple was divorced for ever. In one sense that is true. They aren't perpetually being divorced, yet we could say they are eternally divorced because they will never be married again. This isn't common terminology in our time though. It might have been more so back then.

@Jedi4Yahweh

I think we probably have enough to go on to get an accurate answer without going to the apocrypha books. It is interesting to see how the bible itself has changed since the 1800's. You seem to think those books shed more light on the subject, so much so as to include them in a discussion that we had to know was going to be contentious since there are varying views on what books should be included and which books should not. Some will say that God Gave us our final version. I am not so sure. I say this because God has a special warning in Revelation for anyone who adds to or takes away from the word of God.

That warning would not be necessary at all if it never happened.

While it's interesting for discussion to knock about which books fit and which don't. I'm not so sure it's furthering this discussion. . Not that I wouldn't like to know more.

Is it possible to look at only the words of Jesus and come away with an accurate view?

How do we know for certain we have all of the bible  though? Could some of it have been omitted? We see that actively happening on FB, twitter and YouTube. Who is to say it hasn't happened to the bible?

People seem to go between two extremes- Either no way, could not have happened, never happened, God made sure we have all of the word to the other extreme- The bible has been meddled  with by various groups over the years.

We tend to dismiss it when we see it because we can label groups as cults in the modern times, yet if there were no other versions to compare with, if all past versions were burned what would we be left with?

We know there was some tampering. We have proof of it from reading historical documents as @Jedi4Yahweh mentions.

How far do we take it? Maybe a good discussion for another thread since this one is burying the one on hell.

 

 

That has been something that I kept going over in my mind, and you have to remember that nothing is final till the judgement, as you are either put in the book of life and given eternal life, or you are put in another book and await the lake of fire where you get eternal death as the fire consumes what and who you are, and sin is no more. It was a hard concept for the people of that time to understand, to say nothing of today, and I think this was the easiest way to say, I will destroy sinners for eternity....

Edited January 25, 2022 by Hobie_

[Hobie_]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

The only place of the NT, besides the thrown of God, I am aware of where both men and angels go is the fiery lake. Is there another? 

Jude tells us the angels who rebelled have been held in bondage until judgment. Remember: the angels rebelled before humans. Lucifer prior to Adam. What kind of bondage is it that would hold an angel? And would such a bond work on men of flesh and blood? Both angels and men get tossed into the fiery lake. Has the premise of two different prisons but one single outcome for all prisoners been considered?

 

 

.

The scriptures give us this...

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

So it shows how even angels can be destroyed.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Hobie_

[Alive]

Anything God makes can be unmade, if He chooses.

[Hobie_]

14 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you mean, "How do we know for certain we have all of scripture?"? 

 

Because the Bible was compiled long after the scriptures were completed. Scripture and the Bible are not the same thing. The Bible is a record fo what was spoken/written by God and those He inspired to record it. The Bible is simply a bunch of manuscripts compiled long afterward. For example, we know from the two letters to Corinth that there are at least two other letters, maybe three. The missing letters are likely lost to time but who knows, maybe so cache of manuscripts dating closer the originals than the manuscripts we now possess wil be unearthed and maybe that cache will include the missing epistles. Maybe a copy (or the original?) of Matthew in Aramaic will be discovered? 

 

We have all of the Bible. We definitely do not have all the apostles wrote in the NT era. Maybe not all letters were inspired. Maybe God saw fit to lose what was lost. We have what we have. 

Well, the problem we face today is that men have added ideas of their own into doctrine, lets take for example pagan Greek ideas on death. The word 'Hell' today has pagan ideas and Greek philosophy mixed in, as it got picked up with the Greek translations. The Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of 'Hell' as a place where Satan was in charge with demons running around with pitchforks. It got picked up from pagan and Greek thought, and became seen as a place of eternal torment with demons in charger where sinners were punished forever, so you can see how todays idea of 'Hell' evolved.

You can look at what seems to come nearest to this which is 'Hades.' This Greek word is also translated 'Hell' in many English Bibles, such as the King James Version. In Revelation 6:8, the King James Version refers to 'Death, and Hell' [Hades]. It does this same in Revelation 20:14. Yet some English Bibles leave the word 'Hades' itself, such as the New King James Version, which translates Revelation 6:8 and 20:14 as 'Death, and Hades.' Now here's a key point: in Revelation 20:14 'Hades'('Hell') is eventually 'cast into the lake of fire.' Thus 'Hades' itself is not a fiery place, but is cast into 'the lake of fire.'

Here is Revelation 20:14 in both the KJV and NKJV:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire(Revelation 20:14, King James Version)

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, New King James Version)

In King James Version, there is a marginal reference beside the word 'Hell'(Hades) listed in Revelation 20:13 and 14. It says 'Hell' literally means 'the grave.' Thus Revelation 20:14 could properly be translated, 'death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.' This makes sense.

To make it simple, 'Hades' literally means 'the grave.' This is easy to prove from 1 Corinthians 15:55, which in the King James Version states,
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?(1 Corinthians 15:55)

If you look in any Strong's Concordance, you'll discover that the original Greek word here translated 'grave' is 'Hades.' By looking at the context, its obvious that 'Hades' means 'the grave' because it is Gods saints who rise out of 'Hades' when Jesus Christ returns. See for yourself:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up on victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave [Hades] where is your victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:51-55, King James Version)

Additional proof that 'Hades' means 'the grave' is the fact that 'Hades' was the place Jesus Christs body rested in immediately after His death. In Acts 2:31, the King James Version declares,
His [or Christs] soul was not left in hell [or Hades] neither his flesh did see corruption (Acts 2:31,KJV ).

The New International Version translates Acts 2:31 as, "He was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay "(Acts 2:31, NIV)

Thus Christs 'body'(NIV) or 'flesh'(KJV) was not allowed to see 'corruption'(KJV) or 'decay'(NIV) because it remained in the grave only a short time before He rose.

So the meaning of the three Greek words translated 'Hell' in our English Bibles:
'Tartarus' means 'a place of darkness or restraint'(2 Peter 2:4). Satan abides there now.

'Hades' means 'the grave'(Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). Jesus Christs body rested there, and His saints rest there now awaiting the resurrection.

'Gehenna' means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, also Matthew 13:40-42, 2 Peter 3:7, 10-12). These flames are yet future, at the end of the world.

So Greek mythology and myths along with the translation caused many issues but at the end when Christ comes and sin is destroyed in the final fire, as the wicked perish, the Bible declares:
Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15).

[Hobie_]

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

Anything God makes can be unmade, if He chooses.

Yes, only He has the power not the devil with a pitchfork and his minions..