Starise Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,117 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,631 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time). I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to. The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well. Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place. The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes. Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in. The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post. God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appy Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 23 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,864 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 2,596 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 Jesus described hell in many ways that we could understand, but he placed more importance on one very important detail; the necessity of NOT going there and what we are to do to avoid going there. The worst part of hell is being eternally separated from the Lord. God is the source of all good things. Once a person who has rejected him and dies in their sins, he / she is forever separated from God, and that in itself is the ultimate punishment; they have forever lost the chance to see God’s face, hear his voice, experience his forgiveness, or enjoy his fellowship. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,117 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,631 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 8 hours ago, appy said: Jesus described hell in many ways that we could understand, but he placed more importance on one very important detail; the necessity of NOT going there and what we are to do to avoid going there. The worst part of hell is being eternally separated from the Lord. God is the source of all good things. Once a person who has rejected him and dies in their sins, he / she is forever separated from God, and that in itself is the ultimate punishment; they have forever lost the chance to see God’s face, hear his voice, experience his forgiveness, or enjoy his fellowship. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might My beginnings were in an old hellfire and brimstone church. I call it that because more often than not the sermons focused around scaring people into heaven than on telling them about the wonders of a relationship with the Lord. It almost comes across as extortion in some churches. While a pastor has a responsibility to accurately portray hell in the best way he knows how, I'm not sure using hell as a springboard 1st approach to a salvation message is the best one. On the opposite end of the spectrum other churches never mention the place at all. I think a good teacher will present a balanced approach on the subject. I like that you brought up the way Jesus approached it. Many unsaved people would see separation from the Lord as a good thing because they had no interest in Him while on this plane. These people have no idea what's in store. So how do we reach them? They think hell is a fun time with their friends who are just as evil as they are, or maybe they haven't contemplated any of it at all. Most of those I have come into contact with simply state they don't believe in any of it. They see life as having a "bird in the hand" so they live only for this life. Do we scare those people into looking at it more seriously? Seeing the need for a relationship with Christ is the first step. Looking at the results of another choice should be important too, but to what extent? Of course God sees everything inside of us all. If a person hates his neighbor down the street and a flood comes along wiping out everyone's house and it just so happens the hated neighbor is the only one with a life boat. This neighbor offers safety to the man who hates him. That is how I see the unsaved evaluating their options. God is a spare tire for them 'hopefully'. Jesus wants men to WANT to come to Him. In order to do that I think we need a reliable and accurate understanding of hell. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,117 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,631 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 22, 2022 56 minutes ago, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said: This has been on my mind for a while...if God is everywhere, if God created a hell, wouldn’t he be there as well? i have very little knowledge of Hell, so, who goes to hell? Will a non believer be thrown into the furnace, not sure that is biblical? Also for those who aren’t written in the book of life? Were you asking @appy? I see hell as an ultimate consummation at the outset of a new heaven and a new earth. All persons who willingly decided not to accept God's plan of salvation will go there. All fallen angels will go there. God creates things but doesn't need to necessarily be there. He is in heaven right now and not on earth. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. God has the ability to extend Himself either directly or through His creation. He is all knowing meaning His reach is unlimited. He is all present through His creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyLouse Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 268 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/30/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/2004 Share Posted January 22, 2022 It looks to me like the "dead" are judged according to their deeds, while those who believe will never die and are not subjected to the lake of fire. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. (John 11:25-26) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.77 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 14 hours ago, Starise said: I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time). I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to. The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well. Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place. The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes. Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in. The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post. God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? There have been several discussions on hell. Let's ask a few questions. 1. What happens when we die? 2. What judgment awaits non-Christians when they die? 3. What does scripture teach about hell? 4. What are some of the major objections to the doctrine of hell? 5. Am I going to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angels4u Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 55 Topic Count: 1,664 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 19,764 Content Per Day: 2.38 Reputation: 12,164 Days Won: 28 Joined: 08/22/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 Very good explanation: JESUS TEACHES ABOUT HELL December 14, 2014 Daniel E. Woodhead 71915164640.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie_ Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Seventh Day Adventist Followers: 6 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,786 Content Per Day: 0.33 Reputation: 717 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, NickyLouse said: It looks to me like the "dead" are judged according to their deeds, while those who believe will never die and are not subjected to the lake of fire. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. (John 11:25-26) Yes, and its a choice between everlasting life or at perish the lake of fire as the verse John 3:16 shows... John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. In the Greek for perish in that verse... apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apollumi Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee) Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain). destroy - not torture So 'Hell' is basically the lake of fire, and those who perish will meet their fate there... Edited January 22, 2022 by Hobie_ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,338 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,539 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Matthew 25:46 (KJV) [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. taken from Clark's scholarship... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted January 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,052 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,460 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2022 19 hours ago, Starise said: I know I'm probably going to get burned for bringing this up again ( pun intended this time). I wanted to have a discussion on Hell as translated in scripture and specifically as it relates to the place that both men and angels go to. The general concept of hell isn't mentioned in the OT. Adam's curse was death and hard work to survive. Nothing was specifically mentioned in that text about hell. Hell was multi purposed for men since the bible says it was created for the devil and his angels. On one hand it can be seen that even though Hell is an eternal place made for eternal beings, the angels....... men not under the blood of Christ will go there as well. Alongside the biblical ideas on hell there are parallel ideas coming from ancient pagan religions originating from Babylon. Sometimes these ideas get mingled into Christian discussions on biblical hell and can skew our ideas on the place. The idea that hell wasn't originally made for men seems to indicate a plan B. Most likely hell simply serves two purposes very well. I believe there are two different outcomes. Many will read certain passages and make foregone conclusions about them. Let's take "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This passage clearly references men and not angels in the text example. Most conclude this is taking place in hell and use this as the reason they think hell tortures men eternally. In reality the passage refers to a whole process that involves standing before the Lord in judgement, receiving a judgement from him and being taken to hell by the angels because no one is going to go there of their own accord. "weeping and gnashing of teeth" can be happening during the process BEFORE they are thrown in. The wicked are compared to chaff and are snuffed out. There are so many reasons for this I can't cover all of them in the first post. God is good, God is just, God is fair. God is merciful. We are commanded to love our enemies. What example does God set here? May I make some observations? Thanks. The word "hell" is a Roman Catholic concept. the word does not appear in the Bible. It is used loosely by the translators to render three different Greek words; (i) Gehenna, (ii) Hades and (iii) Tartaroo. I'm overdue for bed here in Europe so I'll just comment on two things: 1. "Outer darkness, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth" appear in context of Israel (Matt.8), and the Believers (Matt.13, 22, 24 & 25). It will do us well to study the contexts. They all involve entering the Kingdom. A man is qualified to enter the Kingdom by rebirth through faith (Jn.3:3-5, 14-16), but the Kingdom is forfeit by works (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5) - and these letters were written to believers. 2. God is good, just, fair and merciful. And in the age of grace we must learn to exercise these virtues because we are ambassadors of reconciliation". But God's foremost attribute is "righteousness". He will not, and cannot, wink at offense. The gory truth of this is; look what happened to Jesus His beloved Son. In order to exercise grace, a terrible price was paid for justice. And the age of grace is soon over. In the next age it is "the rule of the rod of iron". Anybody offending will meet with unbending justice. And anybody whose works are found to be of a certain severity, will be in "everlasting torment". Hitler and company, plus men and women who murdered and such like will not escape. The Lake of Fire is an everlasting monument to justice. Mercy was only extended because Somebody else paid. Good night all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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