Does Modern Church Structure Closely Model the NT Church?

[Alive]

12 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Not all Messianics are the same. They are a diverse group and can be of great help in looking at scripture from a better view in some instances. It was those specific teachings that bothered me. Not their expression of faith.

Anne, I was not meaning to address those points. As josh reminded us, there is neither Jew or Greek in Christ…of the two He made one.

That does not mean that different folks bring different points of view, but those things need to be cultural or personality driven and never different doctrines contrary to scripture.

I am sure you agree. Sacramental practices regardless of the base, can become problematic in terms of creating a rigidity that can interfere with what the Head is doing in an assembly. So, although fhere is much to learn from the feasts, they are not to define our doctrine or practice. Sacramental practices want to become law as juxtaposed against the law of the Spirit of Life…so we are cautious.

[Anne2]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

My regrets. I failed to answer the questions asked. I have have some degree of contempt for that neglect and shouldn't practice it myself. 

 

Q: Today we have something new for our view. But is it simply another package of something old? 

Not sure I understand the inquiry, but I think it fair to say much that is "new" is just the old pig dressed up in new vernacular and/or ritual. I often post about the many ways I believe Christianity is "Judaized" by imposing the Old Testament over the New Testament, or asserting Jewish thought, doctrine, or practice over Christin thought, doctrine, and practice. Christianity's roots are in the Old Testament and to a lesser degree in Judaism but we are neither Old Testament believers, old covenant people, nor Jews. I'm old enough to remember the rise of "Hebrew Christianity," "Jews for Jesus," and the modern messianic evangelicalism. I have worshipped in synagogues, messianic and non-messianic and the Messianics do a lot of stuf the Jews do not do. In that sense the former have indeed re-packaged something old. I came to Christ during the charismatic movement and I saw the rise of Calvary Chapel, Hal Lindsey, and the popularity of Dispensational Premillennialism. I don't know the entire history of the Messianic movement, but I do know it had some significant growth in the 19th and early 20th centuries just as the other dispensational and apocalyptic sects of Christianity were starting. The British Messianic Hebrew Christian Alliance started in the midst of the restoration movement and its American counterpart began just about the same time Lewis Chafer was starting up Dallas Theological Seminary. A lot of what these folks was entirely new and radically different than anything previously taught in either Judaism or Christianity. Ihave often considered Messianic Judaism a bit of an oxymoron. So, yeah, in some sense it is repackaged old stuff. 

 

Q: The teaching goes the spring ones have been fulfilled in Christ, and the fall ones await his return in the millennial reign. Yom kippur is a fall feast. The day of atonement has not been fulfilled? Whats up with that? 

It is, of course, absurd to believe the atonement has not happened. I think it worth noting the words "atone," "atonement," don't appear in the New Testament . Nonetheless, Christ has paid the price for our sins. However, when talking about atonement it should be understood Christians and Jews have slightly different views on this. For the Jews atonement is about making amends and for the Jews the amends needing to be made are more about creation having been grifted from them by the serpent, NOT humanity's own culpability in looing sin upon the world. Huge diffrence. C. S. Lewis once described this as the difference between being the plaintiff in a civil lawsuit (the Jew) and being the defendant in a criminal suit (Christian). Both often fail to realize it's not humans who have been offended or violated. 

It is God! 

Because of the millennial aspect being viewed literally, the Jew and the Messianic iteration within Christian expect reparations: the restoration of the nation Israel. That's what's up with that. It's partly a redressing of the feasts in denial of Christ having fulfilled ALL the Law and NONE of it being any longer the means of justification or righteousness. It's also partly something new and so radically different it has little or nothing to do with either orthodox Judaism or Christianity. 

 

I hope that answers your questions. 

Yes, you did. I struggle with actually saying it myself, it is a denial of his work.  I  have said it privately when a member of my family was going on about the wonderful stuff she was learning. She had no idea yom kippur was a major day concerning sin against God being forgiven was being taught as not done as a fall feast. I just blurted it out. Thanks for your time Josheb.

[Starise]

I feel blessed I was never involved in any of that and so I don't need to untie some of those ropes that bind others.

To be sure there were other no less damaging teachings I had to deal with early on. Good respected people spewing bad inaccurate teachings is a combination I think the other side loves because it is so effective in molding the thinking of the followers.

In this present time I see many churches that aren't happy with what they are or with where they are, so they attempt to make it what they think would make it better. Since "they" are the primary motivators and not God, it's doomed to failure no matter how good it might seem on the outside.

There is a difference between things that came into being through practice and things that were added. I see some of it as having morphed into something else. Those kinds of more natural changes that have more to do with style and function than anything spiritual, I see as inert so far as any real impact.

In the case of Messianic Jews, I see what were probably intended as good motives maturing into much of the same or similar to the same things the Jews had been involved in before this. It isn't the thing in question, I see it more as the reason for doing the thing. And why do a thing if it isn't expressly required? 

[Alive]

I was musing on this again this morning and what came to mind was when Christ said, “it is finished”. I like to think of the word finished as “accomplished”. What did He accomplish? Well, I suspect the answer involves a much larger scope than we can reasonably discuss here. What we can know and all agree on, is that He accomplished nearly all of what we learn from the OT. From Genesis to that moment when the veil was torn. His work and the writings in the NT, shed further light on all that went before. Some like to think that there is additional hidden truths in the OT that are not dealt with in the New.

I think this is error and leads to more error. The feasts point us to Christ and not the other way…although there is a wonderful continuity that flows in both directions. Ha ha…that is one of the things Shaeffer points out. Our understsnding starts in Genesis and wraps up in Christ revealed. Lots of room for discussion there.

:-)

[Selah7]

Hi, @Starise

Well, considering chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, I’d say that most churches today are not teaching the whole Truth.  In these two chapters, Christ addresses the 7 Churches present at the time of the end.  He rebuked all but two of them.  Jesus found no fault with the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, who both taught concerning those who claim to be of Judah, but are certainly not; indeed, they are liars and of the synagogue of Satan himself.  There are only two churches that Jesus Christ finds no fault with and they both teach this same doctrine regarding those who claim to be of Judah and are not; instead, they are a bunch of crooked and deceitful liars.

To the church of Smyrna:

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.   Revelation 2:8-10 (KJV)

And to the church of Philadelphia:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.   Revelation 3:7-12 (KJV)

 

[Starise]

@Selah7 I once viewed this portion of the bible in the same way as you.

As @Josheb mentions, these are real local churches in real geographical places that once existed and maybe some still do for all I know.

I believe these church descriptions can be used as maybe being representative of churches that exist today, but I don't believe in light of the context they are modern churches.

This is one of the things that make Revelation a tough read to understand sometimes. While it is prophetic, we now are reading it mid stream instead of prophecy from beginning to end. We read some of what was, some of what is, and some of what will be. 

There is much confusion due in large part to the teaching received from so many pulpits and end time authors that present the book in a way that further muddy the waters. Most people approach Revelation thinking none of it has happened.

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

@Selah7 I once viewed this portion of the bible in the same way as you.

As @Josheb mentions, these are real local churches in real geographical places that once existed and maybe some still do for all I know.

I believe these church descriptions can be used as maybe being representative of churches that exist today, but I don't believe in light of the context they are modern churches.

This is one of the things that make Revelation a tough read to understand sometimes. While it is prophetic, we now are reading it mid stream instead of prophecy from beginning to end. We read some of what was, some of what is, and some of what will be. 

There is much confusion due in large part to the teaching received from so many pulpits and end time authors that present the book in a way that further muddy the waters. Most people approach Revelation thinking none of it has happened.

@Starise  Hey again…

The word "Revelation" means, of course, "to reveal," "to unveil," “to make known.”The Greek term for "revelation" is apokalupsi (Strong's #602), which is derived from apokalupto (#601) and meaning "take the cover off." Jesus Christ has given this open, unsealed book to all of us who love and serve Him.

Those who have read the Book of Daniel may recall that Daniel was told to seal up the words he wrote until the end, when the wise would understand.

Daniel 12:4 
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

My understanding is that the apostle John was taken spiritually into the future to witness all of these things, and he wrote from the time of the end and even beyond into the millennium.  John is not writing from the first century; rather, he is writing from the period he was spiritually carried to by our Lord, which is the time we are currently living in!

In contrast to Daniel, John was given explicit instructions not to seal the book's prophecies and sayings.  So then, the Book of Revelation is UNSEALED, free and open for God's "servants" to read and understand.  

Rev. 22:10 
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

So, we know that John wrote these words from the isles of Patmos where he was imprisoned for teaching the Word of God, around 96 A.D.

Rev. 1:1 
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I believe we must also remember right about now the parable of the fig tree, which Jesus instructed us to learn.  In a nutshell, both The GOOD FIGS and The BAD FIGS were planted in Israel on May 15, 1948.  So, we should be aware that we are in the final generation before Christ returns.  Getting close!

(3) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

And now, John addresses The Seven Churches:

(4) John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

I truly believe that Jesus Christ has something to say to all the churches of TODAY, not just the ones in 96 AD.  Didn’t we just read in verse three that this is prophecy?  The churches will be described by what they teach, and I think the point here is that “your” church is identified somewhere here in chapters two and three of this book of Revelation.  

Just my take, naturally. 

[Prycejosh1987]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:44 PM, Starise said:

Thoughts? Do you think  NT church structure looked similar to modern day church structure? If not, what are the differences? 

I believe the typical precepts are there such as teaching, singing songs learning scripture, and fellowship, etc. But i believe that Jesus didnt want so many different sects and theological arguments within His church. Its sad, but it might be a blessing in disguise. What works is what works, its as Paul said some have faith to eat meat and others just Veg, so its unwanted different theological sects, but was highly anticipated. 

[Starise]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:23 PM, Selah7 said:

My understanding is that the apostle John was taken spiritually into the future to witness all of these things, and he wrote from the time of the end and even beyond into the millennium.  John is not writing from the first century; rather, he is writing from the period he was spiritually carried to by our Lord, which is the time we are currently living in!

If I read the very first chapter of Revelation I come across some notable mentions. One thing I noticed was the "Was, is and will be" mentioned or alluded to at least three times. There is then a mention of churches, a mention of associated angels for each church. A symbol and then an explanation. 7 stars are in His right hand. The seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches. As John turns around he first mentions seven lampstands. Before all of this seven spirits are mentioned around the throne. Seven is significant here.

In the midst of the seven lampstands is the one whose hair is white, who is wearing a white robe with a gold ring around the chest area or mid section. His countenance is radiant white, with white hair and eyes like fire.Feet like bronze. The term "Son Of Man" is mentioned in this chapter. The Son Of Man is always Jesus.

I see this as a glimpse into the spiritual underpinning behind these physical churches. We see both a spiritual perspective and a physical referral to these churches. A specific set of instructions to these churches.

In at least two cases martyrs are mentioned. Several who die for the cause of Christ. Notice this is not a general ambiguous referral. These are specific individuals. Specific churches with specific angels and referrals to specific individuals.

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Starise said:

I see this as a glimpse into the spiritual underpinning behind these physical churches. We see both a spiritual perspective and a physical referral to these churches. A specific set of instructions to these churches.

Open Question: If you were in a position of oversight within the body of Christ what guidelines for fellowshipping would you recommend be followed by those in your care?

2Co 11:26-28  I have been in travels often, perils of rivers, perils of robbers, perils from my countrymen, perils from the Gentiles, perils in the city, perils in the wilderness, perils in the sea, perils among false brothers;  (27)  in labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, and in cold and nakedness.  (28)  Besides those things that are outside, there is that which presses on me daily: devotional concern for all the assemblies.