Does Modern Church Structure Closely Model the NT Church?

[BibleGuy]

6 hours ago, Robtay7123 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by obedience to the Torah. You don't mean telling gentiles to follow Moses law do you?

Yes, that very TORAH passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16).

Sure, some of those Torah instructions are not presently observable.

But hey, shall disobey all of it then?  Surely not....

Rather, we obey what we can....knowing that in the future, we will again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled).

Jesus upholds even the smallest of Torah instructions (Mt. 5:19-20).

Paul upholds God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

John upholds God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (citing it at 1Pe.1:15-16).

The writer of Hebrews agrees Torah passes into the New Covenant (as I said above, Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16).

It's all over the New Testament.

Paul said ALL Scripture (thus including TORAH!) should correct, rebuke, and train your behavior (2Ti.3:16).

Don't worry......most of us Christians already obey all kinds of Torah principles without even knowing it!

There's just a few things we Christians routinely miss.....the dietary regulations (Lev.11/Dt.14) being one such category we can easily observe (but typically don't).

Anyway, hope that explains more of my Biblical position.

Blessings....

 

 

 

[Robtay7123]

5 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Yes, that very TORAH passes into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16).

Sure, some of those Torah instructions are not presently observable.

But hey, shall disobey all of it then?  Surely not....

Rather, we obey what we can....knowing that in the future, we will again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled).

Jesus upholds even the smallest of Torah instructions (Mt. 5:19-20).

Paul upholds God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

John upholds God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

Peter even explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (citing it at 1Pe.1:15-16).

The writer of Hebrews agrees Torah passes into the New Covenant (as I said above, Jer. 31:31-33 cited at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16).

It's all over the New Testament.

Paul said ALL Scripture (thus including TORAH!) should correct, rebuke, and train your behavior (2Ti.3:16).

Don't worry......most of us Christians already obey all kinds of Torah principles without even knowing it!

There's just a few things we Christians routinely miss.....the dietary regulations (Lev.11/Dt.14) being one such category we can easily observe (but typically don't).

Anyway, hope that explains more of my Biblical position.

Blessings....

 

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. I don't believe that Moses law applies to the church. A close look at Acts 15 ( that very subject is what that chapter is about ) and Romans 14, give clear indication that the church was not to be bound by Jewish laws. Also Hebrews 8 seems to do away with Moses law. The apostles even broke their laws, like Peter staying in a Gentile home of someone who had dead animals.  Jesus even changed the passover meal to be about him. Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law. HOWEVER,  I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws. I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. Anyway,  I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free. God Bless. 

[BibleGuy]

12 hours ago, Robtay7123 said:

Thanks for the clarification. I don't believe that Moses law applies to the church. A close look at Acts 15 ( that very subject is what that chapter is about ) and Romans 14, give clear indication that the church was not to be bound by Jewish laws. Also Hebrews 8 seems to do away with Moses law. The apostles even broke their laws, like Peter staying in a Gentile home of someone who had dead animals.  Jesus even changed the passover meal to be about him. Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law. HOWEVER,  I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws. I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. Anyway,  I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. If you wish to discuss it further, feel free. God Bless. 

Hi there!

The church is ISRAEL ("ἐκκλησία" refers to ISRAEL in Ac. 7:38).

The Torah is given to Israel (Mal.4:4).

Thus, Torah is given to the church.

Let's jump into the details!

 

1. Nothing in Ac. 15 states that Gentile converts should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER coming to Christ.  So, Ac. 15 doesn't support your position.

2. Rom. 14 talks about people of weak faith who eat vegetables (Rom.14:2), but there is no Torah requirement that only vegetables be eaten.  Therefore, Rom. 14 doesn't support your position either.

3. Plus, that SAME PAUL applies God's commands to you (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).  So, we can't just cherry-pick a couple verses and ignore the broader pro-Torah context of Paul's writings.

4. Hebrews 8 explicitly states that TORAH passes into the New Covenant (citing Jer. 31:31-33 at Heb. 8:8-10, and again at 10:15-16).  Can't get any clearer than that.

5. You wrote: "The apostles even broke their laws....Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law."

My response: The apostles did not model Torah-disobedience.  So, you are incorrect on that claim too.  Here's a very small sampling of the evidence:

Paul modeled Torah-obedience, and even paid for a vow to prove that Paul walked in obedience to Torah (Ac. 22); AND!  Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

John told us to obey God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

Peter explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (1Pe.1:15-16).

Stephen, full of the Spirit, was falsely accused of opposing Mosaic Torah (Ac.6:11-13).  Thus, Stephen UPHELD obedience to Torah!

THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers walked in obedience to Torah, as they should (Ac.21:20).  And Paul paid for a sacrificial vow to confirm the legitimacy of such obedience.

Jesus upheld ALL Torah (Mt.5:19-20), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:19-20).

The New Covenant is given as TORAH!  (see "תּוֹרָה" in Jer. 31:31-33, cited affirmatively at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16).

Paul likewise upholds this Torah-laden New Covenant (1Cor.11:25).

Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHING APOSTLES (see "γραμματεύς", Mt. 23:34).  Please don't oppose Jesus' Torah-teaching apostles!

 

6. Paul said the word of FAITH which he preaches is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (thus applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).  That's explicitly pro-Torah.

 

7. What Torah instruction do you think Peter violated?

 

8. Jesus did not change the Passover.  It was ALWAYS about Jesus.

 

9.  You wrote: "HOWEVER,  I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. "

My response:  Of course Paul's teachings affirm Torah.  I've already shown you this.

For example, the fruit of the Spirit is peace (Gal.5:22); and PEACE is given to those who love (not oppose!) Torah (Ps. 119:165).  And yes, Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).  In fact, Paul says ALL Torah should correct, rebuke, and train your righteous behavior (2Ti.3:16).

So indeed, the fruit of the Spirit is TORAH-OBEDIENCE.

First we receive the Spirit, then we grow in faithful Torah-obedience as the Spirit teaches us.

 

10.  You wrote: " To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws."

My response:  We are not "under" Torah....but we should still obey it!

To be "under" Torah, in Paul's view, is to be under the sinful condemnation we deserve for disobeying it.  But there is no condemnation in Christ.  Are we thus free to disobey Torah?  Of course not.  Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16).

Why would you disobey the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you partake?  That makes NO SENSE at all.

 

11.  You wrote: " I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. "

My response:  You have wrongly assumed that "church" is distinct from "Israel".

In fact, we find "ἐκκλησία" in the LXX in reference to Israel, over and over and over again (e.g., Dt. 9:10).

You've been lied to!  "church" = "Israel" in general, Scripturally. 

Besides, how can you partake in the NEW COVENANT?

ONLY if you are an ISRAELITE. 

After all, the New Covenant is only between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31;Heb.8).

If you're not an Israelite, then you can't partake in the New Covenant.

But you DO partake in the New Covenant!

Thus you ARE an Israelite!

And, thus, Torah is given to YOU (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16).

 

Sorry to be officially red-pilling you.....but I have no choice but to share these truths with you:

You don't know who you are (ISRAEL!)

You don't know how should you live (TORAH!)

THAT is who we are in Christ!

 

12.  You wrote: "Anyway,  I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. "

My response:  Sure, MOST Christians on the planet are blissfully ignorant of these Biblical truths.

But not you!

I've now shown you the Scripture.....so, for better or worse, you're now accountable for what you do with this Biblical insight.

Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus said that anti-Torah religious people will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-13), and even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt.4:4), not ignore it or cancel it!

Jesus said our Torah-obedient righteousness must EXCEED that of the corrupted Pharisees (Mt. 5:19-20).

SALVATION is directly linked to Torah STATUTES (Ps. 119:155).

Sounds like Torah and salvation are connected in very important ways!

 

Of course, we don't EARN our salvation.  Jesus paid the price we could never pay.

Nevertheless, faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:26).

What kind of works should have?  TORAH-OBEDIENT works! (1Cor.7:19;1Jn.5:3;Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

That's your only choice!

OBEY or DISOBEY.

But DISOBEDIENCE is bad (of the flesh, Rom.8:7)

So obey!

blessings.....

 

[Robtay7123]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Hi there!

The church is ISRAEL ("ἐκκλησία" refers to ISRAEL in Ac. 7:38).

The Torah is given to Israel (Mal.4:4).

Thus, Torah is given to the church.

Let's jump into the details!

 

1. Nothing in Ac. 15 states that Gentile converts should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah AFTER coming to Christ.  So, Ac. 15 doesn't support your position.

2. Rom. 14 talks about people of weak faith who eat vegetables (Rom.14:2), but there is no Torah requirement that only vegetables be eaten.  Therefore, Rom. 14 doesn't support your position either.

3. Plus, that SAME PAUL applies God's commands to you (1 Cor. 7:19) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).  So, we can't just cherry-pick a couple verses and ignore the broader pro-Torah context of Paul's writings.

4. Hebrews 8 explicitly states that TORAH passes into the New Covenant (citing Jer. 31:31-33 at Heb. 8:8-10, and again at 10:15-16).  Can't get any clearer than that.

5. You wrote: "The apostles even broke their laws....Paul and the apostles never try to make gentiles follow Moses law."

My response: The apostles did not model Torah-disobedience.  So, you are incorrect on that claim too.  Here's a very small sampling of the evidence:

Paul modeled Torah-obedience, and even paid for a vow to prove that Paul walked in obedience to Torah (Ac. 22); AND!  Paul told Gentiles to imitate that pattern (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

John told us to obey God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

Peter explicitly applies Lev. 11 to us (1Pe.1:15-16).

Stephen, full of the Spirit, was falsely accused of opposing Mosaic Torah (Ac.6:11-13).  Thus, Stephen UPHELD obedience to Torah!

THOUSANDS of 1st-century believers walked in obedience to Torah, as they should (Ac.21:20).  And Paul paid for a sacrificial vow to confirm the legitimacy of such obedience.

Jesus upheld ALL Torah (Mt.5:19-20), and this applies to all disciples (Mt. 28:19-20).

The New Covenant is given as TORAH!  (see "תּוֹרָה" in Jer. 31:31-33, cited affirmatively at Heb. 8:8-10 and 10:15-16).

Paul likewise upholds this Torah-laden New Covenant (1Cor.11:25).

Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHING APOSTLES (see "γραμματεύς", Mt. 23:34).  Please don't oppose Jesus' Torah-teaching apostles!

 

6. Paul said the word of FAITH which he preaches is TORAH-OBEDIENT FAITH (thus applying Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8).  That's explicitly pro-Torah.

 

7. What Torah instruction do you think Peter violated?

 

8. Jesus did not change the Passover.  It was ALWAYS about Jesus.

 

9.  You wrote: "HOWEVER,  I would say that all the rules Paul makes in his various letters definitely fill the void. "

My response:  Of course Paul's teachings affirm Torah.  I've already shown you this.

For example, the fruit of the Spirit is peace (Gal.5:22); and PEACE is given to those who love (not oppose!) Torah (Ps. 119:165).  And yes, Paul applies this Psalm to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16).  In fact, Paul says ALL Torah should correct, rebuke, and train your righteous behavior (2Ti.3:16).

So indeed, the fruit of the Spirit is TORAH-OBEDIENCE.

First we receive the Spirit, then we grow in faithful Torah-obedience as the Spirit teaches us.

 

10.  You wrote: " To say that we are not under Jewish law doesn't mean we don't have laws."

My response:  We are not "under" Torah....but we should still obey it!

To be "under" Torah, in Paul's view, is to be under the sinful condemnation we deserve for disobeying it.  But there is no condemnation in Christ.  Are we thus free to disobey Torah?  Of course not.  Torah passes directly into the New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16).

Why would you disobey the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you partake?  That makes NO SENSE at all.

 

11.  You wrote: " I believe what Moses was ( the lawgiver ) Paul is to the Church. "

My response:  You have wrongly assumed that "church" is distinct from "Israel".

In fact, we find "ἐκκλησία" in the LXX in reference to Israel, over and over and over again (e.g., Dt. 9:10).

You've been lied to!  "church" = "Israel" in general, Scripturally. 

Besides, how can you partake in the NEW COVENANT?

ONLY if you are an ISRAELITE. 

After all, the New Covenant is only between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31;Heb.8).

If you're not an Israelite, then you can't partake in the New Covenant.

But you DO partake in the New Covenant!

Thus you ARE an Israelite!

And, thus, Torah is given to YOU (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10;10:15-16).

 

Sorry to be officially red-pilling you.....but I have no choice but to share these truths with you:

You don't know who you are (ISRAEL!)

You don't know how should you live (TORAH!)

THAT is who we are in Christ!

 

12.  You wrote: "Anyway,  I don't believe the law is a salvation issue. "

My response:  Sure, MOST Christians on the planet are blissfully ignorant of these Biblical truths.

But not you!

I've now shown you the Scripture.....so, for better or worse, you're now accountable for what you do with this Biblical insight.

Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus said that anti-Torah religious people will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-13), and even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

Jesus said we LIVE by Torah (Mt.4:4), not ignore it or cancel it!

Jesus said our Torah-obedient righteousness must EXCEED that of the corrupted Pharisees (Mt. 5:19-20).

SALVATION is directly linked to Torah STATUTES (Ps. 119:155).

Sounds like Torah and salvation are connected in very important ways!

 

Of course, we don't EARN our salvation.  Jesus paid the price we could never pay.

Nevertheless, faith without works is dead (Jas. 2:26).

What kind of works should have?  TORAH-OBEDIENT works! (1Cor.7:19;1Jn.5:3;Heb. 8:8-10;10:15-16;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

That's your only choice!

OBEY or DISOBEY.

But DISOBEDIENCE is bad (of the flesh, Rom.8:7)

So obey!

blessings.....

 

I appreciate the amount of time it took you to write that. I don't have that much free time.  I may respond at a later date with a different view. I don't think it would come as a shock to you that I believe you are misusing certain verses and incorrect in your interpretation.  However,  maybe we can discuss this further. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I pray God's Blessing on you.  Until I can respond more thoroughly,  Peace be upon you my Brother In Christ. Amen.

[Starise]

On 4/17/2022 at 7:24 PM, BibleGuy said:

Hello Friend,

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

I'd be glad to share my opinion, if you're curious to know.

1. I define "Torah of Moses" as generally Ex. 20 through the end of Deuteronomy.  That's where most of the Torahs (laws) are found.  Only a few laws appear earlier in Exodus, and only a few in Genesis.  And, the laws in Genesis are not the laws of MOSES, because he wasn't even born yet.  That's why I do NOT equate "Pentateuch" with "Torah of Moses".

2. Mt. 28:19-20 applies all Jesus' commands to all disciples.  Jesus commands us to follow (thus obey) Him and His teachings.  Jesus' teachings uphold even the smallest of Torah instructions (Mt. 5:19).  That's your "carryover".  Not to mention Jesus inaugurates the New Covenant (Lk.22) in which the Torah is written upon our very hearts (Jer.31:31-33;Heb. 8:8-10;Heb. 10:16) so that we OBEY it (Dt. 30:14 applies to YOU in Rom. 10:8).

3. Daily sacrifices continued into the 1st century.  Many 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac. 6:7).  There's no conflict with New Covenant faith in the Messiah and animal sacrifices.  Jesus commands sacrificial activity, at the altar, explicitly here (Mt. 5:24).

4. Animal sacrificial activity will again be fully restored to us, as the Israelite people of God (i.e., His Church).  Sauce:  Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14;Eze. 40-46;Is. 66:21-23;Jer. 33:19-22; Mal. 3:1-4.  So it's definitely not canceled/terminated!  Just temporarily not observable due to our present diaspora.

5. We don't add to the blood of Christ.  His blood purifies us from all sin.  We don't earn our salvation.  It's always been by faith....even from the time of Abraham....but even Abraham obeyed the Torahs of God available to him at that time....as an expression of Abraham's faith.

6. The "exact" requirements are: Mt. 5:19-20.  The Torah points to the Messiah (Dt. 18).  The Messiah points us to Torah (Mt. 4:4;5:19;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk. 10:27-28).  Jesus IS the Torah-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).  He did not come to cancel Himself!

7. The Torah of Moses applies to ALL Israel (Mal. 4:4).  We Christians are included as fellow Israelites, grafted into the same Israelite olive tree, partaking in the same Israelites covenants between God and ISRAEL.  The only way you can partake in the New Covenant between God and Israel (Jer. 31;Lk.22;Heb.8) is if you are accepted as a fellow ISRAELITE!  And in this New Covenant, that same Torah of Moses is applied to our HEARTS so that we OBEY IT (Jer. 31;Heb.8;Heb.10).  Thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8.

 

Anyway, hope this helps you better see my opinion on this stuff....

And, the thread here is about the "true church".  Well, the "true church" should walk in this Torah truth.  That can help us identify who/what the "true church" is....and what the "true church" should be doing.....and how the "true church" should be identified. 

Needless to say, most of us in the church don't even know who we are (ISRAELITES!), nor do we know how we should live (TORAH!)

We all have much to learn!

blessings...

 

 

 

I'm not ignoring you friend, this is a whole study in and of itself. I will admit some bias due to my background. I don't want bias to cloud sound judgements.

_Probably one of my first responses to this without further study would be that, yes Jesus did condone certain of these actions. I would need to know though- Who was His audience? Were these Jews? My second thought is Jesus was still alive at this time He had NOT yet given His life for us, so technically even though this is NT, Jews were still practicing the old ways.

I'll get back to you on this. The intent of Jesus was primarily His sacrifice for our sins. I also see His coming as a way to make our lives less hindered.

Jesus primary teaching was only two commandments- True religion is to visit the widow and the fatherless and love your neighbor as yourself. And do we remember what Jesus reply was in response to?

 

[BibleGuy]

2 hours ago, Starise said:

I'm not ignoring you friend, this is a whole study in and of itself. I will admit some bias due to my background. I don't want bias to cloud sound judgements.

_Probably one of my first responses to this without further study would be that, yes Jesus did condone certain of these actions. I would need to know though- Who was His audience? Were these Jews? My second thought is Jesus was still alive at this time He had NOT yet given His life for us, so technically even though this is NT, Jews were still practicing the old ways.

I'll get back to you on this. The intent of Jesus was primarily His sacrifice for our sins. I also see His coming as a way to make our lives less hindered.

Jesus primary teaching was only two commandments- True religion is to visit the widow and the fatherless and love your neighbor as yourself. And do we remember what Jesus reply was in response to?

 

Hi there!

Jesus did not say His teachings only apply here or there, depending on audience.

Generally, Jesus' commands apply to all disciples of all nations (Mt.28:19-20).

And he commands us to abide in Him (Jn.15:4)....which means we obey His teachings...which include Torah (Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28)

So Mt. 23:23 was spoken to Jewish religious people....but the default assumption (absent occasional evidence to the contrary in specific cases) should be that general teachings of Jesus apply to all disciples, given Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4.

Also, yes, Jesus' teachings were taught BEFORE the cross.  Shall we thus ignore them?  Surely not.  Again, Mt. 28:19-20 + Jn.15:4 carries Jesus' teachings through the cross into the future for all disciples of all nations.

Jesus came to die for our sins, yes.  But also much more!

Jesus came to gather together the scattered people of Israel...including any Gentiles/foreigners willing to join the family!  Thus Jesus cites Is. 56 in Mk. 11, confirming this critical purpose.

And yes, Jesus came to make Torah EASY and LIGHT (Mt.11:30), because it IS easy, and not too difficult, Dt. 30:11.  It was the corrupted religious leaders who invented TONS of man-made rules in ADDITION to Torah....and that made Jesus very angry (because, among other things, ADDITIONS to Torah are a violation of Dt. 4:2....and also because it made it very difficult for true seekers to learn a proper walk of faith in the Lord).

Sure, the GREATEST commands are Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev. 19:18....but those are not the ONLY commands....they're just the greatest!  Just upholds even the SMALLEST of commands (Mt.5:19-20;23:23).

AND, Scripture never said the greatest commands REPLACE the others....

Sure, Dt. 6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL the rest of Torah......but why?  Because if you obey Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 properly, then you will CHOOSE to obey all the rest as well in all detail....that's WHY Dt.6:4-5 and Lev.19:18 FULFILL (not replace!) the rest of Torah.

FULFILL does not mean replace or abolish.

After all, Jesus explicitly said NOT ABOLISH (Mt.5:17).....thus it's still in force!

A husband can daily fulfill his duties as husband of his wife.

But the next day, they are still married!

FULFILLED does not mean CANCELLED or TERMINATED or NO LONGER IN FORCE.

FULFILLED means to "make full"....you make something full by DOING it...not by pretending it no longer applies.

Jesus' reply (Lk.10:25-28) was an answer to the question about eternal life...and Jesus confirms that Torah-obedience leads to eternal life. 

Why?

Because if you obey Torah properly, you'll walk in faith in response to God's eternally saving grace, trusting Him to make complete provision for your sins, ultimately expressed via the Prophet of Dt. 18 (Jesus!) who came to remove those sins through the sacrifice of Himself on the cross, and who came to teach us how to continue to properly obey Torah with faith, mercy, and justice (Mt.23:23).

Blessings!

 

 

 

 

 

[believeinHim]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:17 PM, Michael37 said:

I've been caught in the crosshairs of "church culture" since the day I was born, living in Anglican Vicarages until I left home at 18 years old. I traded the Anglican Communion for Charismatic/Pentecostal fellowships when I was 30, which is 37 years ago now. At the time I was promptly told by a zealous Home Group Leader that Anglicans can't be Christians and I needed to say the sinner's prayer right then to be saved. I had actually done this hundreds of times since childhood as the issue of whether I was a Christian or not would repeatedly surface wherever I went. On many occasions when hitch-hiking between cities as a teenager I was picked up by Christians who would witness to me. Often I would not reveal my background as an altar server and preacher's son because that seemed to polarise people, and to this day there has been very, very little empathy and positive feedback in Charismatic/Pentecostal fellowships in this regard. 

Rather than dish the dirt on any particular denomination, stream, or movement, I like to focus on the gathering together for Scriptural edification and sanctified mutual benefit that I have experienced along the way.

Many times, even as a child, I have been sought out by disgruntled church-goers who want a listening ear and in some cases, advice on how to proceed. The established style of the Anglican services was a brick wall for malcontents to bang their heads against and my father was not actually at liberty to deviate from the uniformity of procedure imposed by the administration.

I'm happy to fellowship informally these days and steer well clear of "Church Administration & Organisation", a subject that was included in both the theoretical and practical Diplomas of Pastoral Ministry I aspired to in 1989-90.

I've been in church since I was 13. I started volunteering when I was 12~ish~13~ish. I tried a charismatic church in my early twenties, mid twenties, and then later twenties. I made a couple of friends who never responded to my texts. I made another friend who acted strange around me when I deleted and unfriended on my facebook. I had another friend reply rudely that she didn't text someone back from church because they hadn't been to church in awhile. All of these friends are all over secular tech. I also noticed the way in which the women {and both} men dressed at that church. I also noticed how Hillsong turned in to and that whole fiasco. So, you can basically say that I do not appreciate the charismatic church. The issue wouldn't be such a big of a deal if they were on both secular tech and christian tech. The issue would be a lot less if every christian was in both places. Either~or, etc. 

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, believeinHim said:

I've been in church since I was 13. I started volunteering when I was 12~ish~13~ish. I tried a charismatic church in my early twenties, mid twenties, and then later twenties. I made a couple of friends who never responded to my texts. I made another friend who acted strange around me when I deleted and unfriended on my facebook. I had another friend reply rudely that she didn't text someone back from church because they hadn't been to church in awhile. All of these friends are all over secular tech. I also noticed the way in which the women {and both} men dressed at that church. I also noticed how Hillsong turned in to and that whole fiasco. So, you can basically say that I do not appreciate the charismatic church. The issue wouldn't be such a big of a deal if they were on both secular tech and christian tech. The issue would be a lot less if every christian was in both places. Either~or, etc. 

Babylon is persistent, such is the world we live in.

[believeinHim]

On 5/3/2022 at 3:20 PM, Michael37 said:

Babylon is persistent, such is the world we live in.

Oh, Yes. It is. I am reading, "Night in Time's Past" about the introduction of artificial light and while there was danger before the artificial light, the partying started after the artificial light. And it also spoke of the partying going on in church yards, as well. Praying. 

[JohnD]

On 1/26/2022 at 1:44 PM, Starise said:

Thoughts? Do you think  NT church structure looked similar to modern day church structure? If not, what are the differences? 

Touchy subject. No. The modern Church resembles the Roman Catholic Church which was formed in the Image of the Roman Empire

morphed into a religion and labelled Christianity.