Your closest friendnt Posted February 3, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,885 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,774 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, AdHoc said: I hear you brother. I'll try to extricate myself elegantly. I can't really apologize for my style because i haven't a clue what you, or Charlie, require in my postings. I can only be myself and hope my message is considered and not my style. Brother Adhoc, you have brought some points on the table that need to be discuss. Hope that you are posting with this in mind. It's not that I have to agree or disagree with you about Jeremiah 31: It is as you have correctly pointed to make a plain reading of what is in the scripture. I have done that and I can not deny that the language is clear that this scripture is about the House of Israel and the House of Judah the two Kingdoms, the North and the South Kingdoms. It is interesting to Note that the Lord is not referring to them as the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah but it seems that he has pass them as Kingdoms and he is referring to them as the House of Israel the people who make up the House of Israel and the same goes for the House of Judah, the people who make up the house of Judah, without referring to them as Kingdoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted February 3, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,062 Content Per Day: 3.30 Reputation: 1,464 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted February 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: Brother Adhoc, you have brought some points on the table that need to be discuss. Hope that you are posting with this in mind. It's not that I have to agree or disagree with you about Jeremiah 31: It is as you have correctly pointed to make a plain reading of what is in the scripture. I have done that and I can not deny that the language is clear that this scripture is about the House of Israel and the House of Judah the two Kingdoms, the North and the South Kingdoms. It is interesting to Note that the Lord is not referring to them as the Kingdom of Israel or the Kingdom of Judah but it seems that he has pass them as Kingdoms and he is referring to them as the House of Israel the people who make up the House of Israel and the same goes for the House of Judah, the people who make up the house of Judah, without referring to them as Kingdoms. Thank you for your reply. I gather that the Lord uses "House" and not "Kingdom" because until they are gathered from the Nations they are ruled by foreign kings. But who knows that great mind of God? He most probably would give us an astounding reason if He posted her and now. I can only speculate. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,690 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said: Hope that you are not taking this personally but you are telling people what to believe, you are not discussing you are not making your point with a reason to further an exchange of information. The Man told you that he does not know yet about a lot of things. You are not teaching him something that he needs to know. I am sorry you feel that way. Perhaps you might reconsider when I repeatedly mention how I am not familiar or well versed in the Scriptures, or that I mention ‘I am not sure about this but..’, or when I finish a response with, ‘look forward to hearing from you’, or a ‘please offer your thoughts on this as I am not familiar with the Scriptures around Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’….. and I could go on but not necessary. If you take a quick look at @AdHoc response to mine (above about one page and which is quite lengthy, it is obvious he has taken the time and effort to consider these thought about Jeremiah 31 and Jacob / Ephraim!!!! And if I may, he is quite certain of his position and presents it in such a way. Now remember, the possibility of Jacob’s blessing might be connected to Jeremiah 31 and the NC came about ONLY because of the side conversation between him and @DeighAnn whether he the ‘seed’ if Isaac or Ishmael (can’t remember) played a role in this. I responded with, ‘I wish I had the understanding they had to participate further and wanted to learn more about what they meant’. Then I tried to work it out on my own and this maybe a connection, NOT at the ‘seed’ level but as the point in time when Jacob blessed Ephraim. I went on to ask him for his thoughts on this…. Early this morning after responding to your comment on ‘the vinegar offered to Jesus on the Cross’, I continued to put my thoughts together on this ‘Jacob’ connection to 31 and became more excited with it and send him my thoughts, hoping he might see some value in it. Well, you can see from his recent response that his opinion is not ‘moved’ by my THOUGHTS, and has expressed them with conviction. But at NO time while reading his response or now have I come away believing or feeling he was telling me WHAT or HOW to believe! He is simply strong in his understanding and that is what this is all about! He does NOT attack the poster or slam the poster because they believe differently. All of this ‘Scripture’ is very new to me!!!!!! I was born again maybe 4-5 years ago and then began studying Daniel (only book studied or read with any kind of focus), so I have some catching up to do. I am about as far from an academic, scholar, theologian, etc., as one could possibly be, but I do have a few gifts from God that most do not- but prior to 5 years ago they were all used in a secular world - and VERY, VERY well. Now, I have been given an unbelievable opportunity to use His gifts for His purpose, not mine! So when I pull on a thread in Daniel I look both ways to see what has been also ‘pulled up’ either in the OT or in the NT. Since DeighAnn’s recent comment to AdHoc, I pulled on the Jeremiah 31 thread and I thought I saw Jacob’s blessing to Ephraim move.. so I went there and thought about it. Which brings us to ‘right here’ and your comment. I am going to respond to @AdHoc response as he responded to me BUT with the belief I may know something… I know he does which makes this interchange with him / DeighAnn and many others within this forum so enjoyable and rewarding- they help me ‘catch up’. So, if you believe I am teaching or preaching, etc., I am sorry you feel that way- please ignore or block me. Best wishes, Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,690 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: I have read your four posts. If I were an analyst, I would say that that you can't get past the obstacle of the plain language of Jeremiah 31. I'm not blaming you or anything, but your initial belief is, as I said in my first posting (I know it's long), is that the Gentiles are somehow included. Now, I know that my "side" exchange about the seed can get complicated, so lets leave any "deeper" understanding and concentrate on what Jeremiah says. If you do not include Ephraim, Jacob's blessing, God's divorce and the Last Supper, but just take God's Words as they are, the matter is simple. God will make a New Covenant of Law with Israel. And this Israel is defined inside the text. It is the offspring of "the fathers who came out of Egypt", and it is the COMBINATION of: The "House of Israel" - a term used for the northern Tribes who broke with Rehoboam after Solomon's death, PLUS The "House of Judah" - term used for the Southern Tribes who stayed with the House of David It does not need any speculation or interpretation, addition or subtraction. God said it was Israel COMBINED, and Israel combined is none other than the offspring of Jacob. The Church was not revealed to Jeremiah and the Gentiles are not mentioned. What happens is that the most influential entity in the world, the Roman Catholic Church, is not interested in Israel's recovery. They are pure "Kingdom Now". They want to rule the earth politically and financially, and Kingdom Now theology allows them to claim Israel's blessings made by the prophets. And thus, they either factor out Israel, and say that God is finished with them, OR, they say the promises of the Old Testament are the Church's. This is not true, BUT it has been taught for a thousand years. I am proposing to you, and you will be the judge, that Israel is Israel - the offspring of Jacob. Let's just offhand see why no Gentiles are involved: The Covenants, except for that made with Noah, are ALL made with Israel The Nation of Israel grew by fruit of the womb Israel were forbidden by Law to have relations with the Gentiles Israel were dispersed NOW because they broke the Law Israel are promised Canaan Israel refused the prophets and murdered them Israel refused their Messiah and murdered Him Israel refused the disciples of Messiah and murdered them Israel remains blind, hardened and in unbelief till the time of the Gentiles is full. They occupy a LOW position now Israel will be restored to their Land and to favor with God Now compare that with the Church: The Church is subject to the Covenant of Noah (Gen.9:9, Act.15:20, 29) The Church is subject to the Covenant of Abraham (Gal.3:29) The Church was never under the Covenant of Law The Church started on resurrection day (Jn.20:22) The Church grew by men having a New Birth by the Holy Spirit The Church will be chastised in the Millennium - not NOW The Church is promised the world (Rom.4:13) - NOT Canaan The Church has embraced Messiah The Church should love Messiah The Church ARE the disciples of Messiah The Church is predicted to become apostate. That is, the Church occupies a HIGH position now but will slip down It is at once obvious that the Church is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT entity to Israel. And they remain totally different even on the New Earth. The Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles, is the Wall of New Jerusalem. Israel, the twelve of Jacob, are Gates. Take your time to consider each statement. If they are correct, then try to forget a thousand years of teaching that the Church is somehow connected to the New Covenant. No small task. I will be unavailable for a few hours but I will be happy to respond to your detailed response… there is lot of good stuff for me to consider, Charlie Edited February 4, 2022 by Charlie744 changed slit to lot... typed too fast... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.60 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2022 5 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel were forbidden by Law to have relations with the Gentiles I try to wrap my mind around what you said in that post and for the life of me (hopefully not eternal) I can't do it. Sons of God are sons of God and they may have different beginnings but do you love God and walk holy or not is the question I would think would concern God but maybe that's because I would love to be a Levite and it is just wishful thinking. When we die there is no taking and giving in marriage and no births. We are all just one big family loving all the same. Did Christ die to break down the partition or not? Did gentiles go from being unclean to grafted in or unclean to 'church all their own'? I would ask you to explain but I don't think one more explanation from anyone would help me, I am simply MISSING that part of my brain or something. If Christians wouldn't have changed the name of the synagogue to church would we be having the conversation? Is 'the church' ever really mentioned as more special? As something different than a place to get together? Isn't it really just Christians? IDK. Please ignore this, but to keep me from erasing and writing this yet again I am going to post it. Oh how I wish I could just understand it. I am not asking for an explanation but if God does happen to reveal a special one in the next couple days please share it. Maybe it is because of the way the word first comes to us. Never having any formal education and getting it through verse by verse book by book I just never got that separation. I figure JESUS is the Old bringing in some New and if there is a 'higher' place it is with the original peoples, to the Jew first (and I am a mutt for sure, so not saying that to help myself). Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel so is there any chance that the body of Christ is not made up of those 'He lost none (but one) of', and if those sheep make up the body, WHAT is the difference. Any way I should have just written RUTH, gentile, bloodline of Jesus, right? Rahab? wasn't she also? Abraham gentile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,690 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: I have read your four posts. If I were an analyst, I would say that that you can't get past the obstacle of the plain language of Jeremiah 31. I'm not blaming you or anything, but your initial belief is, as I said in my first posting (I know it's long), is that the Gentiles are somehow included. Now, I know that my "side" exchange about the seed can get complicated, so lets leave any "deeper" understanding and concentrate on what Jeremiah says. If you do not include Ephraim, Jacob's blessing, God's divorce and the Last Supper, but just take God's Words as they are, the matter is simple. God will make a New Covenant of Law with Israel. Ok and I got it but I do believe your side with DeighAnn was / is no accident and belongs in this discussion and is (might be) a significant connection to 31. Now, not to dictate or tell or demand how you should proceed or think about this issue or this exchange, the one thing I have learned by studying Daniel is 'that there is NO such thing as 'taking God's Words as they are'! There is no reason to believe that every other book in the bible is any different than Daniel - and Daniel has been misunderstood, misinterpreted, treated mostly at the 'face or surface' level, and when many of the verses can not be matched up with OUR SECULAR HISTORY BOOKS AS CONFIRMATION AS TO THEIR INTEGRITY and they are unable to interpret them, then the assessments come out that Daniel is NOT the inerrant Word of God or their are mistakes or must be written by multiple authors or by authors in the 2nd century.... and of course, there are no records found in OUR HISTORY BOOKS for Darius or Belshazzar, etc. This is NOT directed at you or your responses but God IS ABLE AND HAS designed His Words where they have multiple layers of meaning. Drill down and you could find they are limitless (if we had the ability to drill down more than 2 or 3 layers). Not only that, but His Words also are linked or connected to so many other verses and books in His Scriptures - they are limitless.... we may find types and shadows and parallels but that is just the beginning of how deep He has created His Torah. I will end this part of the response by referring to Paul. I doubt that many were as capable in the Torah than Paul - he could most likely recite the Scriptures in his sleep and understand them.... BUT, he did not comprehend the Messiah or so much of His Plan of Salvation.... If he might have seen the next layer in 9:24-27 and how it spoke of the coming Messiah and tied that into Isaiah 53, perhaps he would have believed in Jesus...So there is NO such thing as the 'plain Word of God' or to 'keep it simple'. If someone like me can see they are multiple layers and interconnectivity and relationships throughout the Scriptures than others more talented than myself have seen them and have been drilling down...Well that is enough for that ... 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: And this Israel is defined inside the text. It is the offspring of "the fathers who came out of Egypt", and it is the COMBINATION of: The "House of Israel" - a term used for the northern Tribes who broke with Rehoboam after Solomon's death, PLUS I agree with you there is the 'pure' understanding of the House of Israel - the 10 tribes that were taken away. Now that we agree on that, is there a possibility of another layer that connects to Jacob's blessing to Ephraim? Ephraim was definitely assigned a parcel of land above Judah's area and must be considered to be WITHIN the House of Israel....If you disagree with that please let me know.....They were no different than the other 11 tribes of the House of Israel (where Joseph share became Ephraim and Manasseh). They had the Gentile blood in them but were still within the House of Israel. Not to say YOU are doing this but the Jews looked at things from the 'letter' of the Law and not the 'Spirit' of the Law. Clearly, Joseph's two sons are part of the House of Israel. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: The "House of Judah" - term used for the Southern Tribes who stayed with the House of David No argument here. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: It does not need any speculation or interpretation, addition or subtraction. God said it was Israel COMBINED, and Israel combined is none other than the offspring of Jacob. The Church was not revealed to Jeremiah and the Gentiles are not mentioned. 31“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. I do not see or interpret His Words that way.... God will indeed make a covenant with BOTH HOUSES at the SAME TIME but there is NO COMBINING TO FOCUS UPON. The focus is on giving the NC to BOTH HOUSES not combining or bringing together the people to accomplish the NC. This is, in my opinion, not meant to be a PHYSICAL alignment of the two houses - Israel / Judah has had its time as a chosen nation - a combined physical presence. God still wants to unit the two houses but I believe He is concerned with their 'Spiritual' bringing together once again. Certainly, God will bring the Lost tribes back to Jerusalem, and we see that since 1948 (physically), but it will never be as it was during the time of David... To me, this is so similar to the Jews expected the coming Messiah to come as a King to destroy Rome as opposed to the Messiah coming to conquer sin. Further, I have seen this repeatedly in Daniel and how his verses are interpreted in the 'physical' rather than the 'spiritual'. This is one of the main reasons why Daniel is so misinterpreted - everyone focuses on the 4 kingdoms and how they match and fit in with the history books... they have more of a spiritual application than physical but scholars focus on the metal (outside) of the image and not the meanings they are meant to convey. Everyone contends the first 6 chapters of Daniel are historical and the remaining are prophetic - that is as far from the truth as I am from Jupiter. So, getting back to Jeremiah 31 - there are deeper layers / messages for us to find than just the Words sitting on top of the paper. I am NOT saying I have all or any of those deeper meanings uncovered but they are there. Oh, I forgot... I noticed you mention a few times the 'church' and how it is not mentioned in Jeremiah prophecies or perhaps in any other prophetic books of the OT... Well, I do not agree with that at all. God certainly would never use the word 'church' or 'RCC' or a Gentile church, etc. God's Plan of Salvation for MANKIND was to select His chosen people to become the light, teachers, administrators, etc., of His Plan on earth and introduce the One true God to the world. The pagans / Gentiles would be their students and learn about God THROUGH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL (ALL 12 TRIBES). But they failed but if you were to think for a minute that God did not already know the end you would be mistaken - within His Words / the Torah / the Prophecies, God has embedded more than a few unbelievable verses / scenes / events, etc., that not only are relevant to the 'then times of the Jews' but also to the coming times after the two Houses were split up. Do you really think that God's Plan to save ALL MANKIND would hinge on man's ability to represent Him in all matters of such importance? In Jeremiah 31, God tells us (my opinion) he will indeed NOT forget or forgive the House of Israel for their sins - even though He divorced them - How much farther can anyone get than to have God tell you He is divorcing you? But He would NEVER abandon His people but somewhere in Deuteronomy or Leviticus there is a provision where one can marry the one divorced - but only through death. Well, this is how God would 'remarry' the House of Israel - through HIS death on the Cross. He would never disobey the provisions found in the Torah about remarriage and would do everything possible within the Law to restore Israel. But getting back to the 'church'. I believe many are using that word synonymously with the Christian church or the RCC and that begins a separation not only among believers but it also is being used to determine our interpretations of His prophecies. The 'church' is ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE MESSIAH AND OBEYS HIS COMMANDMENTS. That is it in my opinion, consequently, all prophecies and verses can be appropriately treated as speaking to all individuals - not Jews or Greeks, etc., unless of course they are meant to educate us on how God includes peoples into His Plan of Salvation. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: What happens is that the most influential entity in the world, the Roman Catholic Church, is not interested in Israel's recovery. They are pure "Kingdom Now". They want to rule the earth politically and financially, and Kingdom Now theology allows them to claim Israel's blessings made by the prophets. And thus, they either factor out Israel, and say that God is finished with them, OR, they say the promises of the Old Testament are the Church's. This is not true, BUT it has been taught for a thousand years. So, so, so, so unfortunately true. But God told us this would happen!! The RCC is the 'little horn' and would do everything He predicted..... People keep looking for this boogeyman to come out of the world called the antichrist and be some superhero (much like all of today's movies depicting super heros....ridiculous). This 'little horn' has done more super damage to God's Plan of Salvation for mankind anyone could possibly imagine. What more devastation can anyone do to the Word of God during the past 2000 years? Why should we look for superman when the 'little horn' has already performed so many unbelievable feats to destroy man's salvation? Just as with the Jews in the time of Christ where they looked for a mighty King on a a white horse to physically defeat the Romans, we are looking for this nasty super man to come..... Satan is real, but the 'little horn' is really here! God is not going to allow satan to come out and murder and mangle and destroy His little creatures - the 'little horn' is the one doing that... satan has to manage his evil team by cell phone. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: I am proposing to you, and you will be the judge, that Israel is Israel - the offspring of Jacob. Let's just offhand see why no Gentiles are involved: The Covenants, except for that made with Noah, are ALL made with Israel I am certainly NO authority here and in fact, and quite weak on this but I believe the only Covenant that involved Israel is the one with Moses. Abraham was not a Jew, Noah was not a Jew, Adam was not a Jew. From Adam to Moses, God ALWAYS had a covenant with mankind - they were all oral. Adam and Noah certainly knew the commands of God and kept them - Cain did not and everyone except Noah and his family did not. After the flood God would reduce His commandments to writing so all would know His Laws - couldn't miss them... God chose a people to teach, instruct these written laws so He had established a working relationship with these chosen people - and since He wanted them to represent Him to the world He naturally had to put their name on the agreement / covenant. And they both signed off agreeing to the terms. If Israel had met their obligation - their side of the agreement, the pagans / Gentiles would have been brought into the House of Israel. There would be no discussion of the word 'church'... that was their commission - to bring them in to Israel's covenant with God. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: The Nation of Israel grew by fruit of the womb Not sure what this has to do with the responsibilities of Israel to introduce, teach and bring the pagans into their House to worship the One true God. God simply put an ad in the paper looking for some folks who might have an interest in tutoring a bunch of pagans / Gentiles. Israel agreed with the payment terms, length of the contract and started on Monday (not working on the Sabbath of course, but they would be required to teach the Sabbath to their students). 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel were forbidden by Law to have relations with the Gentiles I agree, but what does this have to do with their duties and responsibilities to God? They were to remain 'separate' as they were not to be corrupted by the pagans / Gentiles way of life... Don't sleep with your students ... you are there only to instruct and teach them... ). 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel were dispersed NOW because they broke the Law Agreed, they did sleep with their students and more... they also started to worship their gods... they really ruined their career. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel are promised Canaan Ok..... and God gave them Canaan and they trashed the property... so? 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel refused the prophets and murdered them Agreed, which certainly contributed to them getting fired by God. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel refused their Messiah and murdered Him Israel and Judah rejected the Messiah... everyone did.... even the Apostles went right back to work after His death.... Despite ALL THE MIRACLES DONE RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM - OVER AND OVER DURING HIS MINISTRY, they did not understand just who He was....... GOD IN WHATEVER FORM - Voice from Mt. Sinai, Shekinah Glory in the wilderness, Jesus in the flesh .... GOD IS SIMPLY TOO BIG FOR US TO COMPREHEND. Not sure I have connected this to Jeremiah 31 though... 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel refused the disciples of Messiah and murdered them And? 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel remains blind, hardened and in unbelief till the time of the Gentiles is full. They occupy a LOW position now How can you possibly say that? Jesus has told Jeremiah that He will bring the divorced House of Israel and the disobedient Judah back again in a special covenant that will be signed by or with His blood on the Cross. He fulfilled His side of the agreement / covenant and made it available to ALL mankind not the Jews or the House of Israel..... There is no 'low position'... we are all equal in His eyes and I have not read ONE provision in His agreement / covenant that mentions some folks are / will be treated as second class citizens, or lower than others (perhaps with the exception of the Democrats... which of course, God sees the end from the beginning and I am not going to judge Him on this). God would never leave out Israel or any other peoples - remember, God's new Covenant would now have to be signed and agreed with by each individual - no corporate administrators as before.... 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Israel will be restored to their Land and to favor with God Israel will be and is being restored to their land ... it is God's Land and His people forever.. They will ALWAYS BE HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE AND NO ONE CAN CHANGE THEIR FIRST BORN TO SAY... LET ME MOVE YOU DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF THE FAMILY TREE - YOUR NO LONGER MY FIRST BORN. If Jesus was willing to bring back the divorced House of Israel after all they did to Him, I believe He still has some important business with them before all this is over with. For one thing is certain. God is certainly using them as a 'sign' for His second coming. I personally believe the Jews will come to know their Messiah and be tremendously instrumental in performing their original assignment of properly teaching and revealing the One true God to the 'church' since the RCC and the Protestant churches has corrupted so much of His Word.... They will have a ziel to teach the Torah and the Messiah JUST AS PAUL DID and the 'church' members (many not all) will be amazed at how His Word was corrupted by their 'church'. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: Now compare that with the Church: The Church is subject to the Covenant of Noah (Gen.9:9, Act.15:20, 29) 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: The Church is subject to the Covenant of Abraham (Gal.3:29) The Church was never under the Covenant of Law The Church started on resurrection day (Jn.20:22) The Church grew by men having a New Birth by the Holy Spirit The Church will be chastised in the Millennium - not NOW The Church is promised the world (Rom.4:13) - NOT Canaan The Church has embraced Messiah Alright, now I think I understand! You have COVID DON'T YOU! Please get to the nearest hospital.. do not stop at any red lights.. this is serious! And just to make sure. after you are cleared by the doctors, head straight over to the RCC and get an exorcism (or two). I wish I had access to an emoji showing a priest sprinkling holy water on someone laying on a bed with their end spinning around... In all seriousness, do you really believe God is divisive? He intends or intended to carve up the Jews from the Greeks into a 'church' with special privileges and subject to different covenants and special promises? I think this is what the RCC is all about!!!! And on a purely secular level, this strikes me of nazi Germany type of thinking. This would take years to address and I have so little knowledge of the Scriptures, etc., but this is not the God I see in the bible - nor do I see anything in His Plan of Salvation that can be interpreted the way you see things. I am so sorry but I can not address these individual statements - too depressing. Instead, I would ask you to consider ONE thing that I believe CAN AND SHOULD BE USED TO DEFINE THE 'CHURCH', AND ALL THE PROPHECIES, THE HOLY SPIRIT, GOD'S COVENANT, THE RESURRECTION, THE MILLENIUM, (AND ANY OTHER ONE OF THE 7 ITEMS LISTED ABOVE - APPLIES TO ALL OF THEM!). If you change your definition of the 'church' to be no less than and no more than the mission given by Jesus Himself to Paul, you would no longer believe in those 7 items. Paul was with Jesus for 3 years being hand fed or tutoried - one on one with Jesus in the desert. God knew Paul was a Scriptural scholar and loved God and would be the perfect candidate to teach the Tanakh to the world (not Peter since he was a fisherman and certainly would never qualify to teach the Torah - Jesus would most likely have to spend at least another 20 years in the wilderness teaching Peter). Jesus would reveal to Paul all the places in the Tanakh that spoke of His coming and NOT JUST THE WORDS ON THE PAPER. After this graduate program, Paul would understand the Tanakh like no other and preach the Messiah to the world. As he moved through Samaria, Greece, Turkey, Italy, etc., he taught both Jew, Greek, pagans, barbarians and even some Democrats. These folks would become THE CHURCH. Paul never classified anyone of them and placed a different badge on them that labeled them superior or a little lower than those I found in Greece. he taught all the same Gospel. That is our definition of the 'CHURCH'. But when the 'christian - Gentiles' saw this organization growing they realized they needed and wanted to gain power over and then the separations began within God's church that used to resemble those folks taught by Paul. Now, labels and privileges were made and given out, the Jews were isolated and moved out of this 'church'. Now they would look back to the time of the Messiah and start identifying events and times like the coming of the Holy Spirit and the Resurrection that would fit within the new definition of this 'church'... this would no longer look like anything from Paul's mission of spreading the Gospel. And of course, then the 'little horn' would gain control and all hell broke loose... and what they did to Paul's mission of the Gospel would never be the same... and now we have folks claiming how the carve outs, the divisions, the nasty practices associated with gaining control over this ' church' repeat their lies.... If you were living in the times of Paul after the Cross and he visited your town to speak the Gospel, and you accepted his message, I can assure you that you would never think about the 7 items you listed above... 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: The Church should love Messiah The Church ARE the disciples of Messiah The Church is predicted to become apostate. That is, the Church occupies a HIGH position now but will slip down This is simply .... unbelievable.... But I will say ONE thing to this.... If today's 'church' which the RCC has a 1.3 billion membership and the Protestants collectively have another 1.0 billion membership and they ALL obey and follow their churches doctrines which exclude honoring the Sabbath, which follows many, many of their own traditions, where the RCC claims they represent God on earth and can forgive sins..... etc., and the Protestant churches follow many of their practices and have their own departures from God's Word..... then how can your 'church' occupy such a HIGH position with God? Just like the RCC, the only place they are able to occupy such a HIGH position is among men. 4 hours ago, AdHoc said: It is at once obvious that the Church is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT entity to Israel. And they remain totally different even on the New Earth. The Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles, is the Wall of New Jerusalem. Israel, the twelve of Jacob, are Gates. Take your time to consider each statement. If they are correct, then try to forget a thousand years of teaching that the Church is somehow connected to the New Covenant. No small task. I am done with this... it is too depressing and you are CORRECT, this is NO SMALL TASK TO ADDRESS.... I sincerely apologize for the above comments and NEVER MEAN TO HARM OR HURT ANYONE but these statements (which just may be accepted in today's churches) are to me, complete arrogance... God has already been down this path in that He chose a special people to teach His Word to the world - no one on this earth, then or now could possibly have done as well as the Jews. But they still failed and God would never again hand over such a responsibility to any man or group ever again. Instead He sent the Holy Spirit to be the 'teacher' to all peoples after the Cross... He would only do what His Father told Him to do... never corrupt His Word or seek power and control over people, twist God's Word to gain authority or even the Holy Spirit would never claim to be God on earth .... It is difficult enough to learn, identify and unpack God's Word without man's rewriting his notes in the margins of the bible and crossing out those verses he doesn't like... I need a drink! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,690 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 862 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 2 hours ago, DeighAnn said: I try to wrap my mind around what you said in that post and for the life of me (hopefully not eternal) I can't do it. Sons of God are sons of God and they may have different beginnings but do you love God and walk holy or not is the question I would think would concern God but maybe that's because I would love to be a Levite and it is just wishful thinking. When we die there is no taking and giving in marriage and no births. We are all just one big family loving all the same. Did Christ die to break down the partition or not? Did gentiles go from being unclean to grafted in or unclean to 'church all their own'? I would ask you to explain but I don't think one more explanation from anyone would help me, I am simply MISSING that part of my brain or something. If Christians wouldn't have changed the name of the synagogue to church would we be having the conversation? Is 'the church' ever really mentioned as more special? As something different than a place to get together? Isn't it really just Christians? IDK. Please ignore this, but to keep me from erasing and writing this yet again I am going to post it. Oh how I wish I could just understand it. I am not asking for an explanation but if God does happen to reveal a special one in the next couple days please share it. Maybe it is because of the way the word first comes to us. Never having any formal education and getting it through verse by verse book by book I just never got that separation. I figure JESUS is the Old bringing in some New and if there is a 'higher' place it is with the original peoples, to the Jew first (and I am a mutt for sure, so not saying that to help myself). Jesus said He came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel so is there any chance that the body of Christ is not made up of those 'He lost none (but one) of', and if those sheep make up the body, WHAT is the difference. Any way I should have just written RUTH, gentile, bloodline of Jesus, right? Rahab? wasn't she also? Abraham gentile. DeighAnn, I did respond to this particular statement in my recent response (just a minute ago I sent it...), but God wanted to keep Israel from being corrupted by the practices and traditions of those they were suppose to teach His Word to.Gentiles His Word.... In fact, as you know, the Jews did the opposite of everything God commanded them to do. Charlie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,674 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2022 The New Testament is not a covenant. It is by grace, a free gift that doesn't have to be fulfilled on our part. Like the Abrahamic covenant, where God performed both parts of the covenant, God fulfilled all parts of this one. He is both our sacrifice and our scapegoat. He fulfilled it by living a perfect iife and conferring on us His righteousness. In turn He took our sinful nature upon Himself and suffered on the cross for it. When we walk after the Spirit we don't need to work at obeying the law. It is written on our hearts to desire to obey His desires for us. In love for our fellow mankind we reach out to people to bless them and in doing so we also bless and glorify God. We go far beyond merely obeying the law. We go the extra mile in loving compassion as the Holy Spirit leads us. it is Christ in us that now lives in us, not our old selfish nature that was striving to please God. He delights in us already just because He sees Jesus in us. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,674 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2022 Some years ago God really drilled this home to me. I had a frozen shoulder as well as a crushed foot. I couldn't even use crutches but had to crawl on raw bloody hands and knees. I felt so useless, not even being able to cook for my family. God told me clearly that I don't have to be able to do a thing for Him to delight in me. As soon as I a born again Jesus' life is in me and I am pleasing to God. He treasures each one of us no matter how insignificant or how little we can accomplish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 4, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,674 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 4, 2022 I know that no one else is ever tempted by self righteousness. I go down the street at the speed limit and watch all the speeders Cruze by me. So I become proud and think about all those sinners endangering the lives of others. If I am not better than them, I certainly am showing how much more I love God by obeying the law. I can get so ugly so fast without even realizing it when I compare myself with others. That is why God had to bring me so low to show me He loves me just as I am. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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