Christianity is Judaism?

[Jake for Jesus]

Skyla wrote:

Had a discussion this weekend in which someone was bashing Christianity, stating that it "evolved" from Judaism.

My Response:

Unfortunately, and regretfully I must say that since the rise to new heights of hyper-Messianic extremism in recent years. There has come now to be a lot of criticism and misrepresentation by those who chose to keep Jewish customs of those who are believers in Jesus who do not.

Skyla wrote:

I said it didn't (Christianity had not evolved from Judaism) . . . . What do you guys think?

My Response:

Over a period of many years in study of the Bible and theology, and having studied Judaism. In the end. I finally came to see that the teachings of Christ and His disciples (that is the teachings of Jesus and of the apostles, not a whole lot of churchanity that has been taught ever since) is actually a continuation of the religion (if you chose to call it that) of the Old Testament that continued on with a new and better covenant from God. Most Christians believe that Christianity had branched off from Judaism, and even the Jews will say that. However, that is not what happened. Actually, it was the other way around. It was the Jews who branched off, broke off and went and invented another religion. Therefore, I would say you that you are exactly right. Because this that is called the Jewish religion today, is not the religion of the Old Testament, and is neither of Moses or Christ.

Edited September 11, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Most Christians believe that Christianity had branched off from Judaism, and even the Jews will say that. However, that is not what happened. Actually, it was the other way around. It was the Jews who branched off, broke off and went and invented another religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm...let's see Judism began with Moses. circa 2000BC.

Christianity began with Jesus when he was Tranfigured circa 30 AD

Jesus and nearly all his followers were Jewish.

Yet, Judism branched of of Christianity???

ERROR! ERROR! Does not compute!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Incorrect.

Please see my ealier posts in this thread. Judaism began in 72 A.D. and is a different religion than what was delivered at Sinai. The faith of the New Testament was born out of the faith of the OT, NOT Judaism. Judaism is the how the Jews adapted to the fall of Temple in 70 A.D.

[Guest yod]

the faith that Yeshua knew did not have a name. It certainly wasn't called "judaism"

I understand why you would think that it was...but Shiloh is 100% correct in saying that the modern religion known as Judaism began at Yavneh.

It is a religion of good works and good intentions but it was devised by the very same people who rejected Yeshua. They added huge volumes to the scriptures (Talmud) and refused to hear the Prophet who was greater than Moses.

There was no name for the faith which Abraham had...and was passed down to Moses...on down to Yeshua. No where in the scriptures will you find the word judaism. I consider myself messianic and it took quite a few years to understand that our "religion" is as cultural as most of christianity is.

There is but one way that is truly pure.

The just shall live by faith.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, one more question. I leaned today from our pastor that the Jew

[ruah brit]

Had a discussion this weekend in which someone was bashing Christianity, stating that it "evolved" from Judaism.  They mentioned the OT.  I said it didn't, mentioned the NT as the main basis for Christianity, as well as Jesus eradicating most of the OT laws.  What do you guys think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christianity started with men of faith who by faith in the Lord loved the Lord. Then the Lord Himself came in the flesh to shine the light on the whole mystery and show by example and teaching that God offers this way of thinking and acting to everyone who will believe and have that same faith to the saving of their souls.

Denise

[Jake for Jesus]

Greetings in Jesus to all.

I find this discussion interesting, and came to want to further note something that I felt some of you may would find interesting.

Of course, there can be no question about Judaism ... I am not referring to what has now come today to be called Messianic Judaism. I am referring to Rabbinical Judaism. It being neither of Moses or Christ.

Further I would note that one dilemna but certainly not the only one presented by Christian Zionism today, is in being that Christian Zionism accepts Rabbinical Judasim as an acceptable faith in the eyes of God. And it is my conviction that this view represents appalling ignorance of both Judasim and the Word of God.

The Judaism (if you chose to want to call it that) that God gave Moses ceased to exist in accordance with the predictions of Daniel chapter 9 and Jeremiah chapter 2:13 in 70AD when the second temple was destroyed and perdictions of Jesus and Daniel were literally fulfilled. With no temple and no priesthood it was impossible to practice Mosaic Judaism (if one were to want to call it that).

As others have mentioned already in earlier posts it was the Council of Yavne (Jamnia) near the modern day Tel Aviv that a Rabbi named Yochannon Ben Zahai. By the way, he had once been a classmate of Saint Paul's from the Rabbinic School of Hillel and a fellow disciple of another Rabbi named Gamaliel. I only mention this in passing. For I felt some may find it interesting. And it was of course as some have already said: it was Rabbi Yochannon Ben Zahai who began the Jewish faith as it exists today.

I felt it may would be interesting to further note that thereafter: Rabbinical Judaism had quickly moved to plant a root based on the Talmudic traditions of men in place of the Levitical Judaism of Moses (if you would want to call it that which was based on the Word of God). Of course, I can see that some of you have or may have studied the origins of Rabbinical Judasim. And as for those who have not. If you were to do so you may would find it quite interesting.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Further I would note that one dilemna but certainly not the only one presented by Christian Zionism today, is in being that Christian Zionism accepts Rabbinical Judasim as an acceptable faith in the eyes of God. And it is my conviction that this view represents appalling ignorance of both Judasim and the Word of God.

Actually Christian Zionism does not reject nor affirm Rabbinic Judaism. Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people and the affirms the right of the Jewish people to live in freedom, peace and security in their own land. It affirms that Israel has the right to stand as an equal participant in the community of nations.

Christian Zionism affirms that the current nation of Israel is the fulfillment of words of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos Ezekiel, and Zechariah just to name a few.

Christian Zionism does not speak to the validity or any lack thereof where the religion of Judaism is concerned. Our support for Israel is based upon direct commandments from God that we are to be blessing, and comfort to Israel and that we should speak words of comfort and pray for her peace and the peace of her city Jerusalem.

Christian Zionists support Israel in their ongoing defensive war for their very existence in the face of 22 Arab nations and the Palestinian community which calls for her destruction. We support Israel because it is the morally superior position; especially in the light of the media bias and misinformation against Israel that is ubiquitous in our world today. Now, more than ever, Israel needs the support of Christians who will stand above the fog of moral indifference, and moral hypocrisy and make their stand with Israel, the apple of God's eye.

Whether Judaism is acceptable or not, isn't germain to the issues that concern Christian Zionism. Most Christian Zionists support all of Israel and that includes the Jews who live there who are secular. Christian Zionism affirms the heart of God for His people.

Zech. 8:1-3

Then the word of the Lord of hosts came saying, [2] "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.' [3] "Thus says the Lord, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.'

[ruah brit]

The words Christianity and Judaism are not anything in the flesh.

Mouth service in any way is just that "mouth service". Regardless of titles and names that people want to be in bondage to. But those who are sons of God are of the Sprit of faith in God and have the Spirit of Christ in them. This is the only thing that matters. What does God call it? What is God’s judgment of it? All outcomes will be what God has said and not what any man thinks.

Ro 8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His

Ro 2

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

They are all one.

Denise

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

Actually Christian Zionism does reject nor affirm Rabbinic Judaism.

My Response:

I beg to differ with you.

I will explain why I do.

Firstly, I was not referring to valid evangelical organizations in which I believe you are making reference to such as for example "Prayer for Israel" and "Christian Friends of Israel" which are both Christian and Pro-Zionist. They are moderates, they are Christo-centric as opposed to Israel-centric. Therefore they are biblically balanced in their approach. They do stand for Israel's right to exist, warn of the dangers of Islam to Judeo/Christian civilization, amd work to point the Christian church back towards its Hebrew root. They do not, however, turn their backs on the local Israeli Body of Christ in order to placate the Rabbis and cultivate good relations with Israeli politicians. While these organizations are not evangelistic, they do stand with the Israeli Messianic believers in their quest to evangelize Israel, and the people in these organizations will often share their faith on a personal low key basis.

It is not groups such as those that my reference was to but to groups that are Christian Zionist that are Israel-centric, and are not biblically balanced that often say Rabbinical Judaism is an acceptable faith in the eyes of God which I consider to be appalling ignorance of both Judaism and the Word of God, and many Christian Zionism organizations are like that. For example the "International Fellowship of Christians and Jews." They are like that and I know for I had once been a contributing member of that organization until I came to see the error they were in and withdraw my support. I could name many other such organizations that are of the same error. This was what I was referring to about the error of Christian Zionism and that is just to mention only one of the lies of Christian Zionist. There are other errors in Christian Zionism that I could also point out. I am for helping Israel and I have long since have done so. However, I will not support any organization that is of that kind of Christian Zionism that offers some other kind of love for Israel that is not the love of Christ; and refuses to present the Gospel to the Jewish people and in some cases to teach against presenting it.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Old Timer]

Shiloh, one more question. I leaned today from our pastor that the Jew