Who is Israel? And what is God's plan for the Jewish people?

[kwikphilly]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Sure!  But I'm also sure that you and others here have MUCH to teach me!
I feel like I'm just scratching the surface.....

Would be glad to learn and share together.

Blessings.......

 

Love reading what you share, especially because of the WAY you share.... In Christs Love!How refreshing your humility is Brother- Be Blessed to Bless & give God Glory!

With love in Christ, Kwik

[BibleGuy]

7 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Love reading what you share, especially because of the WAY you share.... In Christs Love!How refreshing your humility is Brother- Be Blessed to Bless & give God Glory!

With love in Christ, Kwik

Thanks, friend!

Trying to be overtly friendly....because it's easy for online chats to digress unpleasantly....

On the other hand, sometimes you gotta get blunt and to the point (Mt. 23).

Blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

18 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Joshua 21:43-45:

And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.

45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 God owes nothing to national Israel. The O.T. promises of future glory for  "Israel" must be understood spiritually. While we put the unsaved Jew on a pedestal and pour millions of dollars into their tourism and physically portray their pre- Cross traditions ( for spiritual examples, of course!) , God is bringing the last of His chosen ones, including many Jews, into His sheepfold. This is so simple to understand it just amazes me. 

" But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...." ( Romans 2:29).

VERY TRUE!

MODERN GEOPOLITICAL ISRAEL is not the ISRAEL OF GOD.

In fact, much (if not the majority) of modern geopolitical Israel rejects the Messiah and is, thus, cut off (Rom.11).  [Although I suspect there are quite a few closet believers in Messiah living in geopolitical Israel right now....Joseph Good's prominent role in partaking in discussion and research with the Temple Institute might be indicative of a case in point....given that those Jews know Good has faith in Yeshua....but they listen anyway....]

There's just an evident strangle-hold on freedom and speech and religious expression and free thought in geopolitical Israel....hence the difficulty in estimating the true number of closet believers in Yeshua living in geopolitical Israel right now.

But, Paul speaks of 2 Israels....so it's easy to get confused.

There is "Israel" as in the general Israelite people (some of whom believe in Messiah, and some who don't, but all might generally presume lineage back to the 12 tribes)....

And there is the ISRAEL OF GOD (which includes ALL disciples of Christ and people of faith, back to Jacob at least....and which is not rigidly genetically defined...even though it still traces it roots straight back to Jacob....)

Modern Christians routinely confuse the two....

Scripture sometimes refers to the one...sometimes to the other....

Some Christians think they need to bless unappreciative unbelieving Messiah-hating Jews....

And sure, you can do that....

But the Ge.12:3 blessing applies to those who bless ABRAHAM's family....i.e., the people of true faith in God....so just bless your fellow Christian who lives down the street....and in so doing, you just blessed ISRAEL and warrant a blessing in return.

Yes, you can also bless your fellow Christian in central Africa somewhere...and you're blessing the Israel of God in so doing......because all disciples of Christ are ISRAELITES.

blessings...

PS  We will all return to inherit the land again (Dt. 30:1-8).  Can't wait!

[Heleadethme]

19 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Can you address these 17 objections to your position?

Thanks...

Well to be honest, at 64 I’m too old for homework assignments.  😊  But I’ll just try to do my best in the way I am able, the Lord helping.

Do we think Jesus was talking about the old way of the letter where He spoke about teaching the law and jots and tittles?  I don't think so, no, because He went on in those passages to give us instruction as how we are to keep the law...in our hearts, through an inward change, not just outward behaviour....a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees.

I think it’s fine for Jewish believers to do what Paul and others did for the sake of expediency, and even just for the sake of getting together with family to celebrate feast days, etc, as a traditional thing if you want to and out of consideration for your family.  But Paul wrote that the Law is not of faith......how we keep the Law by faith is not through the old way of a checklist of ordinances and sacrifices but simply in the new way of the Spirit.  Jesus and the apostles came teaching the new way of the Spirit, not the old way.  In Hebrews it says there has been a change of the law (which required a change of the priesthood).

The old testament itself instructed Israel to forget the old and embrace the new thing that God was doing:

Isa 43:15

I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Jer 3:16

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Moses initially came down the mountain with only ten commandments, but after the Israelites sinned against the Lord all the other requirements of the Law were added seeing that Israel needed to be instructed in righteousness by them.   “ Law was added because of transgression”.  But God no longer requires all those extraneous ordinances of the Law to be performed, though we may of course still learn and be instructed by reading them:

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 9:10

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.  (and as we know Yeshua brought that reformation through a new covenant.)

Of course it’s understandable humanly speaking for Jewish people to have a nostalgia for the glory of the former house, and it’s a tragedy how things went for Israel, we all want to see her vindicated so to speak, but we know that can’t come through a new Temple of stone or even through having secure borders...it can only come through the gospel, the same way anyone can be vindicated.  As believers we learn to distinguish between our own human emotions and spirit.

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Heleadethme

[BibleGuy]

15 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Well to be honest, at 64 I’m too old for homework assignments.  😊  But I’ll just try to do my best in the way I am able, the Lord helping.

Do we think Jesus was talking about the old way of the letter where He spoke about teaching the law and jots and tittles?  I don't think so, no, because He went on in those passages to give us instruction as how we are to keep the law...in our hearts, through an inward change, not just outward behaviour....a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees.

I think it’s fine for Jewish believers to do what Paul and others did for the sake of expediency, and even just for the sake of getting together with family to celebrate feast days, etc, as a traditional thing if you want to and out of consideration for your family.  But Paul wrote that the Law is not of faith......how we keep the Law by faith is not through the old way of a checklist of ordinances and sacrifices but simply in the new way of the Spirit.  Jesus and the apostles came teaching the new way of the Spirit, not the old way.  In Hebrews it says there has been a change of the law (which required a change of the priesthood).

The old testament itself instructed Israel to forget the old and embrace the new thing that God was doing:

Isa 43:15

I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters;

Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

Jer 3:16

And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Moses initially came down the mountain with only ten commandments, but after the Israelites sinned against the Lord all the other requirements of the Law were added seeing that Israel needed to be instructed in righteousness by them.   “ Law was added because of transgression”.  But God no longer requires all those extraneous ordinances of the Law to be performed, though we may of course still learn and be instructed by reading them:

Eph 2:15

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Col 2:14

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Heb 9:10

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.  (and as we know Yeshua brought that reformation through a new covenant.)

Of course it’s understandable humanly speaking for Jewish people to have a nostalgia for the glory of the former house, and it’s a tragedy how things went for Israel, we all want to see her vindicated so to speak, but we know that can’t come through a new Temple of stone or even through having secure borders...it can only come through the gospel, the same way anyone can be vindicated.  As believers we learn to distinguish between our own human emotions and spirit.

 

 

Hi!

1. You wrote: "Well to be honest, at 64 I’m too old for homework assignments.  😊 "

My response:  :-)  Ok then.....but I'll accept that as a concession you don't have answers to all my objections....

After all, it's not good for us to accept your position, when it doesn't account for Biblical considerations.

 

2. You wrote: "Do we think Jesus was talking about the old way of the letter where He spoke about teaching the law and jots and tittles?"

My response: Of course Jesus was referencing every last jot ("yod")!  Jesus EXPLICITLY said so in Mt. 5:18 (see "ἰῶτα" in Mt. 5:18)...and He says even the smallest of these Torah commands (and our teaching pertaining to them) will determine our position in the forthcoming kingdom.

Not sure how you can ignore this passage....it's pretty explicit.

 

3. You wrote:  "I don't think so, no, because He went on in those passages to give us instruction as how we are to keep the law...in our hearts, through an inward change, not just outward behaviour....a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees."

My response:  If we keep the law from the heart, then we obey it OUTWARDLY AND INWARDLY.  We love FROM THE HEART....not just with words of tongue.  But that's STILL obedience to God's commands in Torah.

After all, the "you have heard" teachings (Mt.5) come right after Mt. 5:19 which upholds every last Torah instruction!  Thus, the "you have heard" teachings (Mt.5) are not something new to replace Mosaic Law...rather, they are simply explanations of how to properly obey Torah....THAT is what rabbis do...they tell you HOW to properly obey (not ignore or cancel or terminate!) Torah....and our Messiah is a true rabbi...

 

4. You wrote: "But Paul wrote that the Law is not of faith......"

My response:  Of COURSE obedience to law without faith is bad.  Agreed!

That's why Paul requires law AND faith together.

After all, Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you (Rom.10:8).  That's TORAH!

Paul applies God's commands to you (1Cor.7:19).  That's Torah! (1Ki.2:3)

Paul says those who obey Torah will be justified (Rom. 2:13).

I could go on and on and on....

 

5. You wrote: "how we keep the Law by faith is not through the old way of a checklist of ordinances and sacrifices "

My response:  Jesus gave us a "checklist" sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).  I'll stick with Jesus' checklist!  And that checklist refers to ALL Torah...btw.

And you dare to oppose God's ordinances?  Shall we disobey God?  Surely not!  Paul tells us to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which of course are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3;Ps.119).

And why do you oppose sacrifices?  Many 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7).  Sacrifices WILL again be restored to our practice (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3).  Let's not oppose what God institutes.

 

6. You wrote: "a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees."

My response:  Yes.  The Pharisees obeyed Torah outwardly, but were hypocrites (Mt.23).  Jesus wants us to be BETTER than that....to obey Torah from the heart.  Thus, Jesus STILL requires Torah:

(Mt. 4:4;5:19;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

7. You wrote: "I think it’s fine for Jewish believers to do what Paul and others did for the sake of expediency"

My response:  1Cor.7:19 is not just for "expediency".  It's a blanket command to obey God's commands which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3;Ps.119).

 

8. You wrote: "but simply in the new way of the Spirit."

My response:  And that very Spirit testifies that Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Heb.10:16), not cancelled or terminated or abolished!  Thus Paul APPLIES that very Torah to you (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

9. You wrote: "Jesus and the apostles came teaching the new way of the Spirit, not the old way."

My response: And the SPIRIT leads us to obey those very Torah statutes and ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The flesh disobeys God's law (Rom.8:7).  Thus the Spirit does NOT lead us to disobey God's Torah! 

Paul tells us to "serve in the newness of the spirit" (Rom.7:6).

Serve what?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25).

Sure,  Spirit-less   Torah-obedience   is bad.

That's why Paul affirms   Spirit-filled   Torah-obedience.

 

10. You wrote: "In Hebrews it says there has been a change of the law (which required a change of the priesthood)."

My response:  "μετατίθημι" refers to TRANSFER of focus upon the superior Melchizedek priesthood....not an abolition of the ongoing Levitical priesthood. (Heb. 7:12).

That's WHY that very writer of Hebrews affirms that the TORAH is to be in our hearts (Heb. 8:8-10;10:16), not cancelled or abolished or terminated!  After all, if Torah is "in your heart" hebraically, that means you OBEY IT (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8).

 

11. You wrote: "The old testament itself instructed Israel to forget the old and embrace the new thing that God was doing:"

My response:  HORRIBLY out of context.  The "new thing" is explicated in Is. 43:19-21.  That has nothing to do with cancelling Torah!

If Isaiah prophesied that Torah is to be cancelled, then ISAIAH WOULD BE A FALSE PROPHET DESERVING DEATH! (Dt. 13:1-5).  Are you sure you want to go there?

That SAME ISAIAH tells us that (in the future) the TORAH will go out to all nations (Is.2:2-3).  Was Isaiah's prophecy in Is.2:2-3 a false prophecy?  Of course not.

Should the Israelites FORGET that God created the universe (Ge.1:1)?  I mean hey, God told them to "forget the old", right?

And hey, sexual prohibitions are just an old thing (Lev.18)....forget the old, right?  (please don't go there!)

And Jesus was wrong to integrate NEW AND OLD? (Mt. 13:52).

Of course Jesus was not wrong!  Jesus AFFIRMS the perpetuity of the teachings from Torah in every last detail (Mt.5:19).  That's how we LIVE (Mt. 4:4;Lk.4:4;10:25-28).

 

12. Jer. 3:16 talks about the ark....it doesn't talk about cancelling anything in Torah.

Moreover, Jeremiah 3 UPHOLDS Torah-obedience in at least a dozen ways!

Here's just one example (I have a dozen to show you, if interested):

Jeremiah 3:20 confirms that it is bad to act treacherously (Heb. “בָּגַד”).  To act treacherously is to disobey YHVH’s word (Ps. 119:158).  The Torah is the word of YHVH (Dt. 1:3; 5:27-33).  Thus, Isaiah affirms it is bad to act treacherously, and Israelites should thus obey the Torah.

 

13. You wrote: "“ Law was added because of transgression”. "

My response:  Well hey...we've all committed transgressions....sound like Law applies to us then, too!

 

14. "But God no longer requires all those extraneous ordinances of the Law to be performed, though we may of course still learn and be instructed by reading them:"

My response:  Oops!  Where's your Scripture for that?

 

15. Eph. 2:15 cancels man-made DOGMA (Gr. "δόγμα"), not Torah.  After all, there is no Torah command which states that Gentiles must be divided from Israel such that they can't come to Christ.

 

16. Col. 2:14 cancels the "χειρόγραφον", not the Torah.  After all, Torah is not a certificate of debt.

 

17. In Col. 2:20, "elementary principles of the world" is not Torah!  Torah is the word of GOD! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).   Torah is not the word of "principles of the world".  Col. 2:20-22 cancels teachings of MEN ("ἀνθρώπων", Col. 2:22), not commands of God.

 

18. Heb. 9:10  Sure, Yeshua inaugurates the NEW COVENANT...but the same TORAH passes directly into that New Covenant, as confirmed by that very writer of Hebrews (Heb. 8:8-10;10:16) citing Jer. 31:31-33, referencing TORAH (תּוֹרָה).  So let's not pretend we can just ignore Torah now....

After all, that SAME CHAPTER (Hebrews 9) affirms that we Christians should obey Torah.

For example:

A. Christians serve God (Heb. 9:14).  God’s commands are found in the Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3; Dt. 32:46).  Thus, Christians serve God in obedience to His commands in the Torah.  Moreover, to serve (Heb. “avad”) God is to obey the Torah (Jos. 22:5).  Therefore, Christians serve God (YHVH) in obedience to the Torah.

 

B.  Yeshua came to put away sin (Heb. 9:26).  Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; 1 Jn. 3:4).  Thus, Yeshua came to put away Torah-lessness.  Yeshua does what is good.  So, it is good to put away Torah-lessness.  It follows that it must be good to obey the Torah.  Christians should do what is good.  Therefore, Christians should obey the Torah.

 

C. Christians are recipients of salvation (Heb. 9:28).  This salvation is that which was embraced by the Jewish establishment (Jn. 4:22).  The Jewish/Hebraic conception of salvation presumes that saved individuals seek obedience to Torah (Ps. 119:155).  Thus, the proper Christian conception of salvation is such that recipients of that salvation should seek to walk in obedience to the Torah.

 

So, you're interpretation of Heb. 9:10 violates the broader Scriptural context in Hebrews, and in Scripture elsewhere, in all these ways (and literally dozens more, if you're interested in learning about that....).  After all, the time of reformation doesn't mark a termination of Torah law, but a change to a focus upon the superior Melchizedek Priesthood and all that it entails.  The superior Melchizedek Priesthood does not cancel the Levitical Priesthood.  THEY COEXIST (easy to prove).

 

19. "it can only come through the gospel, the same way anyone can be vindicated. "

Yes!  And the Gospel of Christ includes His teachings...and that includes the requirement for ALL TORAH (Mt. 5:19).

 

20. "As believers we learn to distinguish between our own human emotions and spirit."

Then let's receive the testimony of the SPIRIT who testifies Torah is not TERMINATED, but should be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:16).

Let's receive the SPIRIT who leads us to obey Torah ordinances and statutes (Eze. 36:27).

Let's serve in the SPIRIT (Rom. 7:6).  Serve what?  TORAH! (Rom. 7:25).

Either we walk in the FLESH or in the SPIRIT (Rom. 8).  But the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7).  So obey Torah in the SPIRIT!

 

================================

Can you address these 20 objections to your position?

Thanks....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

3 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

 

Hi!

1. You wrote: "Well to be honest, at 64 I’m too old for homework assignments.  😊 "

My response:  :-)  Ok then.....but I'll accept that as a concession you don't have answers to all my objections....

After all, it's not good for us to accept your position, when it doesn't account for Biblical considerations.

 

2. You wrote: "Do we think Jesus was talking about the old way of the letter where He spoke about teaching the law and jots and tittles?"

My response: Of course Jesus was referencing every last jot ("yod")!  Jesus EXPLICITLY said so in Mt. 5:18 (see "ἰῶτα" in Mt. 5:18)...and He says even the smallest of these Torah commands (and our teaching pertaining to them) will determine our position in the forthcoming kingdom.

Not sure how you can ignore this passage....it's pretty explicit.

 

3. You wrote:  "I don't think so, no, because He went on in those passages to give us instruction as how we are to keep the law...in our hearts, through an inward change, not just outward behaviour....a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees."

My response:  If we keep the law from the heart, then we obey it OUTWARDLY AND INWARDLY.  We love FROM THE HEART....not just with words of tongue.  But that's STILL obedience to God's commands in Torah.

After all, the "you have heard" teachings (Mt.5) come right after Mt. 5:19 which upholds every last Torah instruction!  Thus, the "you have heard" teachings (Mt.5) are not something new to replace Mosaic Law...rather, they are simply explanations of how to properly obey Torah....THAT is what rabbis do...they tell you HOW to properly obey (not ignore or cancel or terminate!) Torah....and our Messiah is a true rabbi...

 

4. You wrote: "But Paul wrote that the Law is not of faith......"

My response:  Of COURSE obedience to law without faith is bad.  Agreed!

That's why Paul requires law AND faith together.

After all, Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you (Rom.10:8).  That's TORAH!

Paul applies God's commands to you (1Cor.7:19).  That's Torah! (1Ki.2:3)

Paul says those who obey Torah will be justified (Rom. 2:13).

I could go on and on and on....

 

5. You wrote: "how we keep the Law by faith is not through the old way of a checklist of ordinances and sacrifices "

My response:  Jesus gave us a "checklist" sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).  I'll stick with Jesus' checklist!  And that checklist refers to ALL Torah...btw.

And you dare to oppose God's ordinances?  Shall we disobey God?  Surely not!  Paul tells us to keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19) which of course are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3;Ps.119).

And why do you oppose sacrifices?  Many 1st-century believers were animal-sacrificing priests (Ac.6:7).  Sacrifices WILL again be restored to our practice (Dt.30:1-8;Zec.14;Eze.40-47;Is.66;Jer.33;Mal.3).  Let's not oppose what God institutes.

 

6. You wrote: "a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees."

My response:  Yes.  The Pharisees obeyed Torah outwardly, but were hypocrites (Mt.23).  Jesus wants us to be BETTER than that....to obey Torah from the heart.  Thus, Jesus STILL requires Torah:

(Mt. 4:4;5:19;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

 

7. You wrote: "I think it’s fine for Jewish believers to do what Paul and others did for the sake of expediency"

My response:  1Cor.7:19 is not just for "expediency".  It's a blanket command to obey God's commands which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3;Ps.119).

 

8. You wrote: "but simply in the new way of the Spirit."

My response:  And that very Spirit testifies that Torah is to be written upon our hearts (Heb.10:16), not cancelled or terminated or abolished!  Thus Paul APPLIES that very Torah to you (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

9. You wrote: "Jesus and the apostles came teaching the new way of the Spirit, not the old way."

My response: And the SPIRIT leads us to obey those very Torah statutes and ordinances (Eze.36:27).

The flesh disobeys God's law (Rom.8:7).  Thus the Spirit does NOT lead us to disobey God's Torah! 

Paul tells us to "serve in the newness of the spirit" (Rom.7:6).

Serve what?  TORAH! (Rom.7:25).

Sure,  Spirit-less   Torah-obedience   is bad.

That's why Paul affirms   Spirit-filled   Torah-obedience.

 

10. You wrote: "In Hebrews it says there has been a change of the law (which required a change of the priesthood)."

My response:  "μετατίθημι" refers to TRANSFER of focus upon the superior Melchizedek priesthood....not an abolition of the ongoing Levitical priesthood. (Heb. 7:12).

That's WHY that very writer of Hebrews affirms that the TORAH is to be in our hearts (Heb. 8:8-10;10:16), not cancelled or abolished or terminated!  After all, if Torah is "in your heart" hebraically, that means you OBEY IT (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom. 10:8).

 

11. You wrote: "The old testament itself instructed Israel to forget the old and embrace the new thing that God was doing:"

My response:  HORRIBLY out of context.  The "new thing" is explicated in Is. 43:19-21.  That has nothing to do with cancelling Torah!

If Isaiah prophesied that Torah is to be cancelled, then ISAIAH WOULD BE A FALSE PROPHET DESERVING DEATH! (Dt. 13:1-5).  Are you sure you want to go there?

That SAME ISAIAH tells us that (in the future) the TORAH will go out to all nations (Is.2:2-3).  Was Isaiah's prophecy in Is.2:2-3 a false prophecy?  Of course not.

Should the Israelites FORGET that God created the universe (Ge.1:1)?  I mean hey, God told them to "forget the old", right?

And hey, sexual prohibitions are just an old thing (Lev.18)....forget the old, right?  (please don't go there!)

And Jesus was wrong to integrate NEW AND OLD? (Mt. 13:52).

Of course Jesus was not wrong!  Jesus AFFIRMS the perpetuity of the teachings from Torah in every last detail (Mt.5:19).  That's how we LIVE (Mt. 4:4;Lk.4:4;10:25-28).

 

12. Jer. 3:16 talks about the ark....it doesn't talk about cancelling anything in Torah.

Moreover, Jeremiah 3 UPHOLDS Torah-obedience in at least a dozen ways!

Here's just one example (I have a dozen to show you, if interested):

Jeremiah 3:20 confirms that it is bad to act treacherously (Heb. “בָּגַד”).  To act treacherously is to disobey YHVH’s word (Ps. 119:158).  The Torah is the word of YHVH (Dt. 1:3; 5:27-33).  Thus, Isaiah affirms it is bad to act treacherously, and Israelites should thus obey the Torah.

 

 

13. You wrote: "“ Law was added because of transgression”. "

My response:  Well hey...we've all committed transgressions....sound like Law applies to us then, too!

 

14. "But God no longer requires all those extraneous ordinances of the Law to be performed, though we may of course still learn and be instructed by reading them:"

My response:  Oops!  Where's your Scripture for that?

 

15. Eph. 2:15 cancels man-made DOGMA (Gr. "δόγμα"), not Torah.  After all, there is no Torah command which states that Gentiles must be divided from Israel such that they can't come to Christ.

 

16. Col. 2:14 cancels the "χειρόγραφον", not the Torah.  After all, Torah is not a certificate of debt.

 

17. In Col. 2:20, "elementary principles of the world" is not Torah!  Torah is the word of GOD! (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).   Torah is not the word of "principles of the world".  Col. 2:20-22 cancels teachings of MEN ("ἀνθρώπων", Col. 2:22), not commands of God.

 

18. Heb. 9:10  Sure, Yeshua inaugurates the NEW COVENANT...but the same TORAH passes directly into that New Covenant, as confirmed by that very writer of Hebrews (Heb. 8:8-10;10:16) citing Jer. 31:31-33, referencing TORAH (תּוֹרָה).  So let's not pretend we can just ignore Torah now....

After all, that SAME CHAPTER (Hebrews 9) affirms that we Christians should obey Torah.

For example:

A. Christians serve God (Heb. 9:14).  God’s commands are found in the Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3; Dt. 32:46).  Thus, Christians serve God in obedience to His commands in the Torah.  Moreover, to serve (Heb. “avad”) God is to obey the Torah (Jos. 22:5).  Therefore, Christians serve God (YHVH) in obedience to the Torah.

 

 

B.  Yeshua came to put away sin (Heb. 9:26).  Sin is lawlessness (Torah-lessness, Is. 42:24; Hos. 8:11-12; 1 Jn. 3:4).  Thus, Yeshua came to put away Torah-lessness.  Yeshua does what is good.  So, it is good to put away Torah-lessness.  It follows that it must be good to obey the Torah.  Christians should do what is good.  Therefore, Christians should obey the Torah.

 

 

C. Christians are recipients of salvation (Heb. 9:28).  This salvation is that which was embraced by the Jewish establishment (Jn. 4:22).  The Jewish/Hebraic conception of salvation presumes that saved individuals seek obedience to Torah (Ps. 119:155).  Thus, the proper Christian conception of salvation is such that recipients of that salvation should seek to walk in obedience to the Torah.

 

 

So, you're interpretation of Heb. 9:10 violates the broader Scriptural context in Hebrews, and in Scripture elsewhere, in all these ways (and literally dozens more, if you're interested in learning about that....).  After all, the time of reformation doesn't mark a termination of Torah law, but a change to a focus upon the superior Melchizedek Priesthood and all that it entails.  The superior Melchizedek Priesthood does not cancel the Levitical Priesthood.  THEY COEXIST (easy to prove).

 

19. "it can only come through the gospel, the same way anyone can be vindicated. "

Yes!  And the Gospel of Christ includes His teachings...and that includes the requirement for ALL TORAH (Mt. 5:19).

 

20. "As believers we learn to distinguish between our own human emotions and spirit."

Then let's receive the testimony of the SPIRIT who testifies Torah is not TERMINATED, but should be written upon our hearts (Heb. 10:16).

Let's receive the SPIRIT who leads us to obey Torah ordinances and statutes (Eze. 36:27).

Let's serve in the SPIRIT (Rom. 7:6).  Serve what?  TORAH! (Rom. 7:25).

Either we walk in the FLESH or in the SPIRIT (Rom. 8).  But the flesh disobeys Torah (Rom.8:7).  So obey Torah in the SPIRIT!

 

================================

Can you address these 20 objections to your position?

Thanks....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well my friend, I see you've chosen to take my comment in whatever way suits you.

If those passages I posted, which are so plainly stated, aren't enough to convince someone then I don't know what more can be said.  Abolished means abolished.  Elsewhere it says what is old and obsolete is passing away.  Obsolete means obsolete.

The flesh wants to do things its own way rather than God's way.... it seeks to establish its own righteousness rather than submitting to the righteousness of Christ.    

Is Torah our god?  Or do we have a living relationship with the Living God through His Son? 

[BibleGuy]

10 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Well my friend, I see you've chosen to take my comment in whatever way suits you.

If those passages I posted, which are so plainly stated, aren't enough to convince someone then I don't know what more can be said.  Abolished means abolished.  Elsewhere it says what is old and obsolete is passing away.  Obsolete means obsolete.

The flesh wants to do things its own way rather than God's way.... it seeks to establish its own righteousness rather than submitting to the righteousness of Christ.    

Is Torah our god?  Or do we have a living relationship with the Living God through His Son? 

Hi there!

Ok then....fair enough.....

You won't address my 20 Biblical objections here....nor my 17 objections in our previous exchange.....(yet I've addressed every last objection you've raised....)

SO then, you've effectively conceded that your position fails to account for the 37 Biblical objections I've set before you.

I accept your concession.

 

And rather than actually ADDRESS my 37 Biblical objections to your position, you bring up more claims!  (thus confirming your messages are mere cherry-picked propaganda, not intended to account for Biblical objections....)

Ok then.....

Moving on to Biblical objection #38 to your position:

 

38. "If those passages I posted, which are so plainly stated, aren't enough to convince someone then I don't know what more can be said."

Why do you disregard the plain objections I gave to your allegations?

Is that how we should interpret the Bible?  Just pick a few passages, and ignore disconfirming evidence to the contrary?  That's not what diligent truth-seekers do in their analyses...unless of course you're not a.......

 

39. "Abolished means abolished. "

Jesus said Torah is NOT abolished (Mt. 5:17).  Go back and read it again.

 

40. "Elsewhere it says what is old and obsolete is passing away. "

Not "is passing away"....rather "ready to disappear" or "ready to pass away"....in Greek: "ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ"....and something can be "ἐγγὺς ", yet not occur for thousands of years into the future (e.g., see "ἐγγὺς " in Rev. 22:10, which is "near" or "ready"....yet here we are 2000 years later, and it still hasn't happened yet!  Thus confirming that something that is "ἐγγὺς" is something that may happen in the future, perhaps thousands of years into the future.....not NOW.)

But hey, go ahead and ignore this Greek fact....and pretend it's "just so plainly stated"....

I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink.

Moreover, that very passage, just a few verses prior, applies TORAH directly to you in the NEW Covenant! (Heb. 8:8-10 citing Jer. 31:31-33).  But hey, ignore that context and pretend the writer of Hebrews is Pro-Torah in Heb. 8:10, but then changed his mind in Heb. 8:13....go for it!  The sky is purple and it's raining blue triangles!  You are free to believe however you desire.....that's the awesome (yet scary) thing about human freedom.....we can easily use it inappropriately....

 

41.  "The flesh wants to do things its own way rather than God's way...."

The FLESH disobeys Torah (Rom. 8:7), and the flesh is bad....

So Torah-disobedience is bad.

So Torah-obedience is good!

Ok....now just ignore this one too....thanks.

 

42. " it seeks to establish its own righteousness rather than submitting to the righteousness of Christ."

True....let's uphold CHRIST (who requires even the least of Torah as our righteousness, Mt. 5:19-20).

After all, righteousness is something we DO (1Jn.3:7) in obedience to God's commands (1Jn.5:3) which, of course, are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

Ok....better not deal with these either....   :-)

 

43. "Is Torah our god?"

Jesus IS the Word-made-flesh (Jn.1:14).  The Torah is the word of God (Dt. 1:3;5:27-33).  So, Jesus is the Torah-made-flesh.   Thus, your disobedience to Torah is disobedience to Jesus and disobedience to God.

 

44.  "Or do we have a living relationship with the Living God through His Son?"

Yes!  We LIVE by that very Torah! (Mt. 4:4;Lk.4:4) through his Son who likewise requires Torah (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Oh wait....I may have already mentioned those passages....and you just ignore them anyway.....so why should I bother?

 

45.  Sin is Torah-disobedience (Rom 3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4;Is.42:24).

Sin is bad.

Torah-disobedience is bad.

Thus, Torah-obedience is good.

You should do good.

You should obey Torah!

(yet another Biblically-motivated line of reasoning you've yet to address.)

 

46. John said we should obey God's commands (1Jn.5:3).

God's commands are in Torah (1Ki.2:3).

Conclusion: John taught we should obey God's commands in Torah.

 

47. Stephen, full of the Spirit, was falsely accused for allegedly opposing Mosaic Law (Ac. 6:11-13).  Thus, Stephen, full of the Spirit was truly upholding obedience to Mosaic Law.  So be like Stephen!  Be full of the Spirit in obedience to Torah!

 

48. Jesus upholds Psalms as Scripture which can not be broken (Jn.10).

Psalms uphold Torah (Ps. 1;19;119).

Thus, Jesus upholds Torah as Scripture which can not be broken.

 

49. The church is built upon the foundation of the prophets (Eph.2:20).

The prophets uphold Torah obedience (Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Malachi, all of them...)

Thus, the church is built upon the foundation of Torah-obedience.

When will you stop opposing the very foundation of the church?

 

50. Paul upholds the New Covenant (1Cor.11:25).

The New Covenant upholds Torah (Jer. 31:31-33).

So why do you oppose the very Torah of the New Covenant in which you profess to partake?

Why do you oppose the very Torah of the New Covenant which Paul upheld?

 

=====================================

Ok.....got it up to 50 Biblical objections to your position.

Now, please don't even read them.

Just go back to your previous claim that it's "plainly stated"....and you don't know what else to do or say.

Because that's what diligent truth-seekers do.....right?

Thanks....

 

PS  Yes, I'm getting edgy....but God gets angry too when His word is spurned....

Paul flat-out calls people "fools" when needed (Gal. 3:1)....

It's ok for me to imitate God (Eph.5:1)....and imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

[George]

19 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You also said: "But the Ge.12:3 blessing applies to those who bless ABRAHAM's family....i.e., the people of true faith in God..."

 

and in being blessed ... And you shall be a blessing.   The idea of being blessed ... is so that you can be a blessing!

[Anne2]

On 4/18/2022 at 8:02 AM, Rosie1jack2pauline3 said:

Ah,ok, I’m starting to get the gist of it now, thanks,👍

Very interesting,Ann, I will continue to follow and observe, any questions,I will ask.

Thanks very much for being patient and explaining.🙏

Again rosie, I don't think a lot of covenantalists or any hold this view.  But, I think it does line up with what the historic Church has taught in outcome anyway. Ya know when you take a view others haven't I think you need to be careful. So, I do like to chech out my own views in various ways. I think it lines up with acts which tells us Abraham was given no inheritance in the land (at the time of that covenant made) as well as Hebrews in saying they all died in faith not having received the promise. So just a heads up in that. :-)

[Heleadethme]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:49 PM, BibleGuy said:

PS  Yes, I'm getting edgy....but God gets angry too when His word is spurned....

Paul flat-out calls people "fools" when needed (Gal. 3:1)....

It's ok for me to imitate God (Eph.5:1)....and imitate Paul (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

Yes, the Lord can get angry, or He can be longsuffering depending on the reasons for different parts of His word being rejected.  Could be stubbornness and pride, could be spiritual immaturity, could be d/t bad teaching, could be due to idolatry, it just depends....He knows and judges the heart.

I want to post some scriptures and see if you'd share what your thoughts are on them.

 

Heb 7:11-19

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(the Greek word for change here unequivocally means to transpose one thing for another...one thing put in place or exchanged for another...it doesn’t mean to add one thing in addition to another.)

For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.  (See that..?  DISANNULLING of the old....it’s a new law now, as it were)

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 

Rom 2:25

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (and as scripture establishes, no one can keep the law...the law proves all men to be unrighteous....if we offend in anything at all we have transgressed the whole law)

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

1Co 7:17-20

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

 

Gal 5:1-14

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The priesthood has been changed from the tribe of Levi to a new priesthood from the tribe of Judah....the tribe Yeshua/Jesus was born into.  And circumcision is one example where the Law was changed....no longer circumcision of the flesh but circumcision of the heart.  So in order to obey the Law concerning circumcision one only needs to be circumcised in heart.  Another example where the Law was changed is where Jesus spoke about lusting after a woman....the letter of the Law only says not to commit adultery....but the Law being changed to be a Law of the heart requires more than what the letter says.  Keeping of Sabbaths is another example...Paul wrote to let it be according to one’s own conscience and to let no one judge us, ie, rule over us, in that matter....if it were still required by God to keep the Sabbath day in the literal sense Paul would of course have said so and taught it.....we actually keep the Sabbath Law when we keep it in heart by having entered the rest of God through faith, ceasing from our own works and walking in His rest every day. (“There remains therefore a sabbath rest to the people of God....”)   These are all examples of the new way of the Spirit, in other words.

The BIBLE says the dividing wall and enmity are due to the ordinances....and I believe it because I see and experience it, such as on this thread and attending services at some Messianic places of worship.  We're supposed to be a NEW MAN, neither Jew nor Gentile, and not divided into two camps, but ONE.