You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I find difficulties with this. If Revelation is chronological then why does Chapter 11 show the victory of Christ in taking the world for His, but Chapter 13 gives the kingship over all nation of the Beast in Chapter 13?

And those who "LIVED" and reigned with Christ are only partly made up of the Great Tribulation saints. I see FOUR "martyrs reigning, only one of which comes from the Great Tribulation.

1. Christ - slain 2,000 years before the Great Tribulation
2. Those slain for not taking the Mark which is only valid for the last three and a half years
3. Those slain for the witness of Christ - that would starts with Stephen some 1,900 years ago
4. Those slain for the Word of God - that would start with Abel

Rev.20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded (iii) for the witness of Jesus, and for the (iv) word of God, and which had (v) not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and (i) they lived and reigned with (ii) Christ a thousand years.

 

Good morning AdHoc,

I know we have differing views, but the way I look at it, chapters 11 & 13 are parenthetical chapters. I see chapters 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, and chapter 14 as parenthetical. Some of those chapters are not entirely parenthetical, but they give additional information or detail about a previous or following chapter. 

If I skip over those chapters, I view Revelation as written in chronological order. 

I am not dogmatic with this view, but it appears to me it is written that way. From my experience, and to take a guess, I'd say the book of Revelation is the most glossed over book in the Bible from the church pulpit and Sunday School? 

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Only the sequence of the Seals Trumpets and Bowls, then the Return; is chronological.  

Revelation 11:15 to 19, is describing events in heaven when the Seventh Trumpet is blown.  Proved by how Satan is thrown out of heaven then; Revelation 12:7-9

That sounds like "Chronological, but yet not chronological", and the things on earth suddenly become things in heaven.

 

15 hours ago, Keras said:

Not difficult at all. Revelation 20:4-5 cannot be refuted.  Jesus is the 'Firstfruit' of the resurrection.   Other Prophesies simply refer to the final Judgment; the GWT, after the Millennium. 

Isaiah 65:20 and Zechariah 14:16-21  are the clear prophecies that show it will be mortal humans in the Millennium reign of King Jesus on earth. 

I think our main difference is that we set different values on accuracy of word and grammar. Revelation 20:4-6 does not address "Firstfruits". It addresses a resurrection of "First in importance":

Again - accuracy. Daniel, prophet, gives the resurrection of Israel after the Great Tribulation, not the White Throne Judgement (Da.12:1-2)

It looks like it is difficult after all.

[AdHoc]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:08 PM, transmogrified said:

So rather than making two different events out of 1 Thes. 4 and Matthew 24, it needs to be understood that this is the same event being described in two different ways...Remember placing 1 Thess. 4 before the tribulation is impossible according to when Jesus says the believers will be resurrected...in other words 1 Thess. 4 is not describing a pre tribulation event, so we can't lean back on 1 Thess. 4 as if it is an entirely different event that happens at another time and so therefore it can't be Matt. 24...No. There is no pre trib event of a resurrection, so the ONLY place to put 1 Thess. 4 is at the same time of Matthew 24...so we can't say the believers get resurrected twice immediately after the tribulation and try to think the two accounts into two entirely different events. No...they are the same event. One account is giving details about what is happening that the other account does not give and likewise they are both talking about the same Second Coming.

But the Bible makes two events. The language and sequence and timing are different. You are forced to make them the same to fit your thesis. Let's look at them again.
- 1st Thessalonians 4:13 sets the context - How saints who were dead and in Hades are physically able to accompany Jesus when He comes to earth (Jude 14). No such thing in Matthew 24. The context is the "sign" of His coming (24:3).

- 1st Thessalonians addresses how the dead saints get to the clouds. Matthew 24 addresses how Jesus gets to be seen by men on the ground - like lightening

- 1st Thessalonians gathers the saints from the earth to the clouds. Matthew 24 addresses how scattered Jews are moved back to Canaan because that is where they were scattered from - the "four winds" (Jer.49:36, Ezek.37:9)

- 1st Thessalonians addresses a CHURCH. Matthew 24 addresses "the Tribes of the Land"

The evidence is overwhelming that these are two different events.

[AdHoc]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:08 PM, transmogrified said:

The judgment seat of Christ is Matthew 25 when it says 'When the Son of man shall come (not when he is in the air) THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory...he is now on the earth...not in heaven...not in the clouds..this is the same event spoken of in Daniel, 'When the Ancient of days did SIT...these are the same events being described as to when Jesus sets up his throne on the earth at the Second Coming.

Not so brother. The word in Matthew 25:31 s "Thronos". "ALL Nations" are judged there. It is either fixed in heaven or FIXED on earth. In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 is "Bema". A Bema is a seat of judgement that a dignitary carried with him when he was AWAY from the seat of ultimate power. The Christian is  not judged before a fixed throne, but before a "traveling throne". The only journey that out Lord Jesus makes is between His throne (thronos) in heaven (Rev.4) and His "throne" on earth. On His journey from heaven to earth, He would use a Bema.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Did you acknowledge what Jesus said about the resurrection of all  believers on the last day and how this means their could be no rapture before the last day? Jesus is the chief cornerstone and both apostles and prophets are incomplete without him in the corner...this is the foundation we are to build on..the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone...The resurrection happens first before the rapture so when it is acknowledged when the resurrection takes place it takes all the guess work out of when the rapture happens...if the last day resurrection for all believers, both Old and New Testament , is not acknowledged to take place on the last day, the door is open for multiple resurrections at different times for different sets of saints, like those from Pentecost to the pre trib rapture, then another resurrection for the Old Testament saints and tribulation saints...all of these are arbitrarily placed in order to accomodate a pre trib rapture...however, the chief corner stone is not a pre trib rapture from which all scriptures must revolve around, the chief cornerstone is Jesus who said exactly when the resurrection would take place and who would be in it...it is what he is saying that puts both apostles and prophets in their proper place and makes up the foundation that cannot be shaken...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Christ is THE Foundation (1st Cor.3:11). There is no cornerstone here. The context is building the Church in a predominantly Gentile Church. The rapture is not alluded to here.

Christ is "Chief" Corner Stone in Ephesians 2:20. The context is the construction of the New Man for which the Law is abolished. the word "Chief" implies that there are other corner stones of lesser rank. The rapture is not alluded to here. The New Man is defined in 2nd Corinthians 5:17.

But I could have missed something about the rapture. If I have, please show me the wording. Thanks - and go well.

[missmuffet]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:54 PM, transmogrified said:

Yes you are right...the resurrection happens first, however the point I was getting at was WHEN this resurrection takes place..Jesus said it would happen on the last day, which is not before the tribulation...hence there can be no rapture before the last day...

Blessings to you 

I do not support your timing of the rapture of the Church.

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

There is only the first fruits, and then those who are Christ's at his coming...this is not three gatherings...Christ was the first that would rise...not Christ and some saints...only Christ and the only other category was 'those that are Christ's at his coming...this is the Second Coming immediately after the tribulation..not a coming before the tribulation that cannot happen because there is no resurrection before the tribulation which must happen before Christ descends from heaven and the living are caught up in the air...if there was no resurrection, which must take place FIRST before the rapture, then no rapture happened before the tribulation...Jesus does not just randomly come down from heaven so the resurrected saints can ascend up to meet him if no one gets resurrected until the last day...it would be like standing at the train depot thinking you are going to get on the Friday train and it doesn't come until next Wednesday...just because a person believes the train is supposed to be there on Friday does not make it happen...Jesus will not resurrect any believers until the last day...so there is subsequently no rapture before the last day, no saints were resurrected up to heaven before the tribulation if none were resurrected until the last day.

Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...this is not showing three gatherings...Paul said concerning the coming of the Lord and our (singular) gathering unto him will take place on one single day, called the Day of Christ...he said THAT DAY (in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him) would not come except there come a falling away first...this is not a pre trib event...there are two things that must take place before that day comes...this is not showing three gatherings...this is showing one gathering on the Day of Christ, and that Day does NOT come except there is a falling away FIRST and the man of sin be revealed...so any coming  or gathering before these two events takes place will never happen.

When you put it like this, you have a good argument. But the student of scripture will ask why you left out crucial details. Like ...
- You brushed off defining the Day of the Lord

- In Luke 21, up to verse 24 the Tribulation of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the subject. Then, suddenly, in verse 25 our Lord turns to the parable of the Fig Tree, the perplexity, not of Israel, bt the Nations, and ends with a tribulation that will come upon "all the earth" in verse 35. The Great Tribulation is the context of verse 35-36. And verse 36 offers an escape IF the Christian is WORTHY. What is more, the escape will be to be able to stand before the Son of Man (v.36). Now, according to Mathew 24:28-30, the Son of Man is in the clouds UNTIL the Great Tribulation is over, and then only does He leave the clouds. So Luke 21:36 places those WORTHY in the clouds with the Son of man - and before the beginning of the Great Tribulation as thy will escape this time.

I have another sch proof, bt will await your answer to this one.

Go well brother

[Keras]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus does not come again at the end of the 1000 years...he comes immediately after the tribulation of those days and sets up his kingdom on the earth and the saints reign with him for the 1000 years...if the resurrection did not come until the end of the 1000 years then all the saints would not be able to reign with him for the entire period. When he comes it says he comes 'And ALL the saints will come with him...how do all the saints come with him if they are not all first resurrected / raptured? 

Blessings to you- Gary

Revelation 20:4-5 is perfectly clear. ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT, will be resurrected and will reign with Him, along with those Christians who remain alive at that time. 

ALL the 'saints'; dead faithful Christian people, do not Return with Jesus, they must wait for the thousand years to end.  Jesus Returns accompanied by His angel army, Revelation 19:14    He only brings the souls of the GT martyrs with Him and they get brought back to life. Mortal life that is: as they can die again, but their second death has no power over them.   Because their names are Written in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

[Keras]

6 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Saying all believers will be resurrected on the last day does not contradict Rev. 20:4-5

Yes it does.  Verse 5  very clearly says that the rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment. 

Which will be the Last Day, of God's decreed time for mortal mankind. The end of the 7000 years.    ALL the scriptures that tell about our resurrection, refer to what happens at the Great White throne Judgment. Proved by how Job, David and Lazarus, all wait for that final Day. Job 14:10-15, Acts 13:36, John 11:24

[Keras]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Again - accuracy. Daniel, prophet, gives the resurrection of Israel after the Great Tribulation, not the White Throne Judgement (Da.12:1-2)

Daniel 12:1-3 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Proved by how it is then that all the dead awake to stand before God.  The Book of Life is opened and those whose names are found in it, become as shining stars. 

As for Israel; if you think ethnic Israel has anything to do with end time events, then you are very confused.