You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[AdHoc]

On 4/3/2022 at 2:19 PM, transmogrified said:

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture.

Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day...

The two most important questions in the rapture discussion are 'who is resurrected and when are they resurrected?' Jesus answers both these questions in 4 places in John 6.

Here is the list of those who are resurrected on the last day:

1) Those who God has given to Christ

2) All those who God has drawn

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him

These are varying descriptions of the believers who Jesus will resurrect on the last day...There are no believers left out of these descriptions.. New Testament Believers, Old Testament believers, tribulation saints...all are included in the last day resurrection.

If all are included, then there could not a Pre trib rapture, or a mid trib rapture, or any other variant before the last day. 

 

The above is your first posting. As the exchange of ideas has progressed, we find more and more common ground. That is good. I would just like to post your initial posting. Now, without regurgitating any thing, could you insert all the resurrections you have agreed to in your further postings, in the "Last Day". After all, you rejected the "Last day" as being 1,000 years, and peg it as a 24-hour solar day. But now you include a harvest for the tares, a firstfruits resurrection for Christians, Israel's resurrection, ad a 1,000 years gap till "the rest of the dead" are raised.

I propose the following, based on the information we have almost agreed upon;

- Jesus Christ, because He can add human experience to divinity, is "Firstborn from the dead", "Firstfruits of them that slept" and has "Preeminence" in resurrection - even though he was at least the seventh who was raised in time

- The resurrections of the boy a Elijah's time, the boy at Elisha's time, the man who touched Elisha's bones, the Phonetician woman's boy, the girl and Lazarus whom our Lord Jesus raised, are all valid resurrections that took place NOT on the Last day

- Our Lord Jesus was NOT raised on the Last day

- The Old Testament saints of Matthew 27 were not raised on the Last day

- Moses was not raised on the Last day

- The Beast and the False Prophets are not raised on the Last Day

- The Church's resurrection, being a harvest, cannot be reaped in one day

- Israel's resurrection is done on another day - after the Great Tribulation

- The "rest of the dead" must wait 1,000 years for their resurrection.

HOWEVER ... if the "last day" is taken as 1,000 years, nearly all the people of earth are resurrected at the last day. And if this be the case, the there is ample time within that "DAY" to have multiple gatherings of the Church to the air.

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Good morning AdHoc,

I know we have differing views, but the way I look at it, chapters 11 & 13 are parenthetical chapters. I see chapters 7, 10, 11, 12, 13, and chapter 14 as parenthetical. Some of those chapters are not entirely parenthetical, but they give additional information or detail about a previous or following chapter. 

If I skip over those chapters, I view Revelation as written in chronological order. 

I am not dogmatic with this view, but it appears to me it is written that way. From my experience, and to take a guess, I'd say the book of Revelation is the most glossed over book in the Bible from the church pulpit and Sunday School? 

I can't agree with you more. Let's take another example. Three and a half years into his seven-year reign, the Beast has all worship directed at himself. To do this, he must abolish, destroy and make illegal, any type of religion. In Revelation 17 we have this event - the destruction of the Great (religious) Whore - not by God, but by the ten kings. It is also so in Matthew 13 when the Tares are harvested BEFORE the Wheat. Thus, we have the destruction of the Babylonian religion BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation. That is, the events of Chapter 17 are, in part, before Chapter 4.

All claims to a chronological Revelation must be modified and explained - like you did.

[Hobie_]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture.

Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day...

The two most important questions in the rapture discussion are 'who is resurrected and when are they resurrected?' Jesus answers both these questions in 4 places in John 6.

Here is the list of those who are resurrected on the last day:

1) Those who God has given to Christ

2) All those who God has drawn

3) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood

4) Everyone who sees the Son and believes on him

These are varying descriptions of the believers who Jesus will resurrect on the last day...There are no believers left out of these descriptions.. New Testament Believers, Old Testament believers, tribulation saints...all are included in the last day resurrection.

If all are included, then there could not a Pre trib rapture, or a mid trib rapture, or any other variant before the last day. 

 

You speak the truth, my brother, but many choose not to see or hear what is in Gods Word and follow what comes from mans ideas or deception itself.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

Daniel 12:1-3 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Proved by how it is then that all the dead awake to stand before God.  The Book of Life is opened and those whose names are found in it, become as shining stars. 

As for Israel; if you think ethnic Israel has anything to do with end time events, then you are very confused. 

No. Daniel 12 concerns "Daniel's People" and the Great Tribulation. "The Book" was around at Moses' time already (Ex.32.32). Daniel 12 reads;

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Added to this, "Daniel's People" are owned by Christ. He is their Maker and King. Thus,
- They are resurrected "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). Moreover;
- At the White Throne the "rest of the dead" rise, not "thy people"
- At the White Throne books of WORKS will be opened, not the "wise"
- At the White Throne no one "shines", but the heroes of Israel will

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I can't agree with you more. Let's take another example. Three and a half years into his seven-year reign, the Beast has all worship directed at himself. To do this, he must abolish, destroy and make illegal, any type of religion. In Revelation 17 we have this event - the destruction of the Great (religious) Whore - not by God, but by the ten kings. It is also so in Matthew 13 when the Tares are harvested BEFORE the Wheat. Thus, we have the destruction of the Babylonian religion BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation. That is, the events of Chapter 17 are, in part, before Chapter 4.

All claims to a chronological Revelation must be modified and explained - like you did.

Like everyone else, I have thoughts about the Whore of Babylon, this One World mystery religion, sitting on many waters (nations). Much too long to get into detail.

It seems logical for this “religion” before the kings crush it to be an ecumenical and universal type of religion, politically correct if you will.

Is there a religion passed down from ancient Babylon through the Roman empire, gaining power and becoming the Holy Roman Empire? That is drunk with the blood of the saints (inquisitions, crusades, persecutions)?

Sitting on seven mountains, with a detailed description in Rev. 18:11-14. There’s a lot of debate about the seven hills, but I have some pictures of cathedrals, purple & scarlet, gold & silver, frankincense, and everything else that says it all. I’ll post one for reference and thought.

I am watching this present Pope Francis, the bizarre things coming out of his mouth. His successful ecumenical movement and letters of agreement with Muslim sects. His trip to Abraham’s homeland, Ur, and what was said and done there.

When asked if homosexuality and lesbianism are wrong, he replied, who am I to judge.

The first-ever Jesuit Pope is suspicious, considering the function and history of the Jesuits. To my knowledge, he has never talked about the Gospel and the only way to Salvation. He is an open socialist-communist who favors and supports a One World global government.

The Saint Malachy Pope prophecies are thought-provoking right now.

I am not playing pin the tail on the donkey, but let’s talk about ducks?

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck… Is it possibly a precursor?

 

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, Keras said:

ALL the 'saints'; dead faithful Christian people, do not Return with Jesus,

All the saints return with Jesus at the Second Coming...

1 Thess. 3:13

Quote

To the end he may establish your hearts un blamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at he coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Zech. 14:5 

Quote

"...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with the...'

In order for all the saints to come with Jesus at the Second Coming they must be resurrected or raptured...

He does not say 'And the Lord my God shall come and the saints who died in the tribulation with thee...' No. All the saints come with him...this is what he said about the resurrection:

Christ the first fruits afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' The tribulation saints are not the only saints that belong to Jesus...when he said 'those that are Christ's he is meaning all those who God gave to Christ ...which is all the saints as it says in John 6:39

"And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day..'

Jesus said God's sheep were given to him in John 10:28 "My Father which gave them me (His sheep) is greater than all..'

He said in John 17 "all are thine and thine are mine...' He said in John 17:6

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them me..."

So who are those that 'are Christ's at his coming? ' Everyone that God gave to Christ...which is not just tribulation saints, but all the saints. 

The scripture is true that the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished, but it doesn't mean all those that belong to Christ will not be raised at the Second Coming because it plainly states All his saints will come with him..

There is an explanation for 'the rest of the dead' that does not contradict the fact that all the saints are resurrected at the Second Coming...but it first has to be acknowledged that ALL the saints can not come back with Jesus at the Second Coming and also not be resurrected until the 1000 years is finished...this is non sense.

 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[transmogrified]

14 hours ago, tim_from_pa said:

As for the feast, it then tells me the Lord is under no obligation to make any rapture fit in the scheme of that timing in Leviticus 23.

Hello Tim_from_pa...Good to meet you...:)

People do go to the feast days and types and shadows in the law to try to establish their beliefs...but the clarity is not in the shadow, it is in the very image itself...if you want to see what I look like, you can see my shadow but if you want detail you need to see me.

Paul is not talking in shadows when he says 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...' If this one scripture would actually be believed it would settle almost every issue as to the timing of the rapture...why?

Because of 3 things...it says

#1) WHO will be changed

#2) WHEN will they be changed

#3) HOW long it will take to be changed..

So the who part is when he says we shall ALL be changed..the word ALL of the believers being changed does not mean PART of the believers changed at one time, and another part of the believers changed at another time...which is exactly what Pre trib teaches..

Pre trib would cease to be pre trib if they actually believed what Paul said here...Jesus emphasizes it even more can clarifies it to where there is no question as to who will get resurrected on the Last Day..

He doesn't say 'Tribulation saints, and the Old Testament saints I will raise on the last day, but the other saints from Pentecost until before the tribulation will be resurrected before the last day..' This is all non sense.

And how long does it take to be changed? This is apparent it only takes a moment, a twinkle of an eye...add this to the fact that ALL the believers are being changed in this one moment, this one twinkle of an eye, and it is easy to see it all happens on one day, called the Day of Christ. 

He plainly states 'Everyone that sees the son and believes on him will be resurrected at the last day...he plainly says 'all those that God gave to Christ will be resurrected on the last day...he plainly said those who eat my flesh and drink my blood will be raised on the last day...he plainly says ' all those who God has drawn to Christ will be raised on the last day..

Yet Pre trib will insist on other criteria..like 'are they old testament saints or new testament saints? Doesn't matter. These are not the distinctions Jesus used to describe who would be resurrected on the last day...in other words, these other distinctions are smokescreens to distract peoples attention from the distinctions he really is making and when they will be resurrected...

The importance is huge...the resurrection plainly must take place first before the rapture...if the resurrection does not happen until the last day, then there could be no rapture before the last day...

Blessings to you 

[transmogrified]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

You are forced to make them the same to fit your thesis.

Jesus stated all believers are raised at the last day, so there is no believers that can be resurrected at any other time...Paul specifically states that the dead in Christ rise first and then the rapture...it cannot still be maintained that there is a pre trib resurrection going in 1 Thess. 4...Just like all the believers did not get raptured today because the resurrection is not scheduled until the last day...the rapture cannot happen until that resurrection takes place..it would be like standing at the train depot waiting for your train that you thought was supposed to be there on Friday, but it actually wasn't scheduled to be there until next Wednesday...it doesn't matter if I believed it was supposed to be there on Friday. There is no train leaving until the last day.

That has to be first established in our thinking...if there is no pre trib resurrection it cannot still be assumed to be there just because it is presumed the two accounts are so different they cannot be the same event.. 

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- 1st Thessalonians 4:13 sets the context - How saints who were dead and in Hades are physically able to accompany Jesus when He comes to earth (Jude 14).

The snapshot picture of what actually happens at the resurrection is shown in the two witnesses...they are killed and they lay in the street for 3.5 days...after three days it says the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...So the bodies have already begun to decompose but when the spirit of Life from God enters them they are resurrected from the state of death they were in and their bodies were changed...of course this happens at the resurrection...this is when this mortality puts on immortality..they do not ascend up in flesh and blood mortal bodies..they are resurrected and changed, and then they hear a voice from heaven saying 'come up hither,' and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...'

So where did they go? They went up to heaven..the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven...it says they rise first...this rising first means of course they were resurrected before the rapture, but it also means they ascended up first...so we take a step back and say, where did they go? They went up to heaven...so they are now up there with Jesus in the third heaven where God is.

This is where Rev. 19 starts out and says 'I heard a great voice of much people in heaven...saying Alleluia...Salvation and glory...for he hath judged the great whore...so they got there just after the destruction of the great whore which does not happen before the tribulation...it happens at the end of the tribulation when all this great multitude of much people was heard in heaven...

So banking on what Jesus said in John 6 and other places, we know these people that were in heaven had just arrived via the resurrection that just took place on the last day...not a pre trib event at all...the saints were not in heaven before because there was no resurrection of anyone before that would enable them to ascend up to heaven...

So where are we? We are on the last day..God has just judged the great whore, the dead in Christ are now in heaven and getting ready to descend down with Jesus for Armageddon.

So what happens with those who are alive and remain who get raptured? Well, as 1 Thess. 4 states the dead in Christ ascend first...so they are in heaven according to Rev. 19, ready to descend down to earth at Armageddon...This is specified in 1 Thes. 4 that 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him...' This is the army that is coming down in Rev. 19 to Armageddon....but then what does it say about those who are alive and remain? They are caught To MEET THEM in the air...so as those sleeping in Jesus are descending, the raptured saints meet them, but then what happens? Of course they don't go back to heaven...this is non sense...they meet the resurrected saints and continue on downward to Armageddon...

So lets do a little snapshot of those who are alive and remain...it says two shall be in the field, one shall be taken and the other left...ect...So what is going on here? The one who is taken is taken in the rapture, leaving the other one behind...but then the the disciples ask the magic question...they say 'Where Lord?' Where what? Jesus says one is taken and the other left, so they are asking him where the one that was taken was taken to...where was he taken? Jesus said 'Where the carcase is there will the eagles be gathered together...this is Armageddon where the birds eat the flesh of the mighty men and so forth..they are taken THAT VERY DAY to Armageddon with the resurrected saints and ALL the saints come with Jesus as it says...he cometh with ten thousands of his saints...to execute vengeance at Armageddon. But this whole context happened at the end of the tribulation...not a pre trib event at all.

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

No such thing in Matthew 24.

The gathering is dealt with in both settings...the account in 1 Thess. 4 shows the dead in Christ are raised...this is another way of saying what Paul said in 2 Thess. 2 'our gathering together unto him..' Jesus said it this way 'He shall gather together his elect from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of heaven..." So  we just saw how the dead in Christ have ascended up to heaven...so they are now there in heaven...Jesus says he now gathers these resurrected saints from the uttermost part of heaven and then gathers those from the uttermost part of the earth, these were those who were raptured from the earth.

But 1 Thess. 4 says something that connects what is going on. Matthew 24 just has the resurrected saints and the raptured saints gathered, but then it kind of leaves you hanging as to what they do next....1 Thess. 4 fills in what happens next..God brings those sleeping in Jesus with him...so Matthew has them up in heaven, 1 Thess. shows God descending down the earth WiTH the dead in Christ, and then 1 Thess. 4 also highlights the detail of the gathering from the earth (the raptured in Matthew 24) are caught up to meet the dead in Christ as then they all form this army that is following Jesus back on his white horse to Armageddon...

You can see that each account fills in date to clarify what is going on that the other account did not mention.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1st Thessalonians addresses how the dead saints get to the clouds. Matthew 24 addresses how Jesus gets to be seen by men on the ground - like lightening

Matthew accounts for something not mentioned in 1 Thess...it does not mean these are two different events.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- 1st Thessalonians gathers the saints from the earth to the clouds

Agreed

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Matthew 24 addresses how scattered Jews are moved back to Canaan because that is where they were scattered from

This is God assembling his army to fight at Armageddon...the Jews are converted At the second coming after Jesus descend to the earth...they say 'where did you get these nail prints in your hands...? God fights for them when he returns and it is at that point he pours out his spirit upon them and they are grafted back in...the elect that he is coming down from heaven with are his saints from all time...as it says he comes 'and all the saints with him...' Israel is not converted at the time the saints come down...the elect are his saints from Adam until the Second Coming 

.Israel is not the elect until they get converted...God said he would graft them back in IF they continue not in unbelief...he does this when he returns and fights for them, the 144000 are not part of these coming down from heaven.

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

- 1st Thessalonians addresses a CHURCH. Matthew 24 addresses "the Tribes of the Land"

The dead in Christ and the elect are the same thing...When it says, 'then shall all the tribes of earth mourn,' it has nothing to do with the 144000 coming down with the saints ...the 'tribes' is also translated 'nations' and it is all those out of every kindred, nation and tongue who come out of great tribulation and wash their robes...these are the nations who convert at the Second Coming...the nations are still on the earth, but the saints are his elect who return with him...God inherits the nations and they come under his rule...the mourning, and wailing spoken here and also in Rev. 1:8 is when the nations repent at the Second Coming.

"...and then shall all the tribes (or nations or people) of the earth mourn.."

"...and all kindreds (or nations, or people) of the earth shall wail because of him..." Rev. 1:7

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The evidence is overwhelming that these are two different events.

Both describe the Coming of the Lord...for 1 Thes. 4 to be the coming of the Lord it can not happen until the last day...Matthew 24 describes the coming of the Lord with his saints...his saints can not be gathered until the last day...Paul says that day in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him will not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed...this, along with no saints resurrected until the last day places 1 Thes. 4 on the last day...there are not two gatherings of the saints on the last day..that would be non sense...there are not two comings of the Lord on the last day...that would also be non sense...both accounts deal with resurrected saints...Paul said we would all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...both accounts deal with saints who have put on immortality...Paul says ALL of us will be changed at the same time...its the same event. 

Blessings to you- Gary

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, Hobie_ said:

You speak the truth, my brother, but many choose not to see or hear what is in Gods Word and follow what comes from mans ideas or deception itself.

Yes, the sequence of events is easy to understand...first the resurrection, then the rapture...if there is no resurrection until the last day, there could be no rapture before the last day...

Blessings to you 

[Keras]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

there is no resurrection until the last day, there could be no rapture before the last day...

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a resurrection or a rapture to heaven, before Jesus Returns. 

We must endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10 and when Jesus Returns; He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 

Wouldn't it be better to believe the real truth about what God has planned for the end times?   If nothing else: be ready for disappointment and whatever happens, never give up your faith. Always trust in His protection.