You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hello again....

    I have read what was said about how to understand that 'no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven...'

I can not see anything in this explanation that would cause someone to think he really didn't mean that no man has ascended up to heaven...

Jesus said no man has ascended up to heaven except he that came down from heaven...how would the ignorance of Nicodemus about the new birth make that mean that there have been people who have ascended up to heaven? 

How would the ignorance of Nicodemus concerning the tree of life make that mean that there have been other people beside Jesus who have ascended up to heaven?

The scripture is quoted that no man hath ascended up to heaven, yet these reasons are offered to make one understand that he did not really mean no man has ascended up to heaven...I do not see anything in this explanation that would cause anyone to think he really didn't mean what he said....

How does Jesus telling Nicodemus that no man has ascended up to heaven except for him help him understand the new birth, and why would Jesus telling him no man hath ascended up to heaven except for himself cause Nicodemus or anyone to realize there were others beside Jesus who has ascended up to heaven? 

 

I see your point. I cannot say much more than I have said, but here is the text and the attendant difficulties with it;

 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

- Nicodemus did not know something he should have known - what was it?
- Who is the "WE" of verse 11?
- What had the "WE" known and seen?
- How could Jesus, Who came down from heaven, FIRST have ascended to heaven? The Bible has Him first coming down and then ascending long after He said these things to Nicodemus
- How could the Son of man (showing His earthly origin from Mary) be in heaven (present tense) while He spoke to Nicodemus who was on earth?

No need to answer, but you can see that the setting and revelation of these verses is about something else.

[Joulre2abba]

On 4/3/2022 at 8:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Paul said the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the rapture will take place...so even though we do not know the day nor the hour, we know the resurrection of the believers must happen before the rapture.

Jesus said the resurrection of all believers will happen on the last day. So if the resurrection happens on the last day, and this resurrection must take place before the rapture, then there can be no rapture before the last day...

Jesus didn't say 'on the last day', Martha did. But reading Jesus response it's clear that he didn't say 'on the last day'. What Jesus said in Jn.11 is what Paul taught in Thes.4. There is no 'on the last day' in his text.

Oops first you said that there's a resurrection and a rapture then you said there was no rapture.

By honoring the words of Jesus and Paul, the reasonable statement should be that since the resurrection happens first then it logically, theologically follows that there is a rapture that occurs after it.

[transmogrified]

On 4/30/2022 at 4:35 PM, Joulre2abba said:

Jesus didn't say 'on the last day', Martha did. But reading Jesus response it's clear that he didn't say 'on the last day'. What Jesus said in Jn.11 is what Paul taught in Thes.4. There is no 'on the last day' in his text.

Yes, I was connecting the statements made by Jesus in John 6 that all that believe would be resurrected on the last day to 1 Thess. 4.

There is no last day in the specific verse as you said...in other words it does not come out and say 'And it shall come to pass on the last day that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ shall rise first...' But when we read what Paul said that we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, then we know that PART of the saints do not get resurrected at one time, and then the other part of the saints get resurrected at another time...

And this is also in accordance with what Jesus said about him raising all believers on the last day...that is the point...the resurrection of all believers does not take place until the last day, and we know the dead in Christ must be resurrected before the rapture can take place so we know there could be no rapture before the last day as pre trib has put forth.

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And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

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And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Going through this list, there are no saints that would not be included in the resurrection on the last day. It includes Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, Tribulation saints, the two witnesses...in other words ALL SAINTS are resurrected on the last day...there is no category for 'church age saints' or 'tribulation saints' or 'Old Testament saints..' The categories are:

1) All those who God has given to Christ...(God gave all his saints to Christ)

2) Every one who sees the Son and believes on him..(Old and new testament saints) 

3) Those who God has drawn to Christ...(no man can come to me unless the Spirit of God draws him...this includes tribulation saints as well as New Testament saints, and the two witnesses...)

4) Those who eat his flesh and drink his blood...(All new testament saints, including tribulation saints and the two witnesses)

And if there is any question about who may or not be included in the resurrection and judgment and rewards given to the believers we can look at Rev. 11:18 and see who God rewards at the 7th Trumpet...it is:

1) Thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints

3) Those that fear thy name, both small and great...

The saints are rewarded at the 7th trumpet...according to pre trib, there have already been saints resurrected, judged and rewarded before the tribulation, but scripture shows them ALL being rewarded at the 7th trumpet, and ALL being resurrected on the last day, and ALL being changed at the last trump.

On 4/30/2022 at 4:35 PM, Joulre2abba said:

Oops first you said that there's a resurrection and a rapture then you said there was no rapture.

The issue was concerning the CHANGE that happens to both the living and the dead  at the same time..not that there was no rapture. The dead in Christ still ascend up to heaven first before the living are caught up...the point being that the resurrection that Paul spoke of in 1 Thess. 4 happens on the last day, not before the tribulation, which of course places both the resurrection and the rapture on the last day...

On 4/30/2022 at 4:35 PM, Joulre2abba said:

By honoring the words of Jesus and Paul, the reasonable statement should be that since the resurrection happens first then it logically, theologically follows that there is a rapture that occurs after it.

Yes, of course it is logical that a rapture would occur after the resurrection...the point is placing the resurrection on the last day precludes the rapture from happening before the tribulation...

Blessings to you- Gary

Edited May 2, 2022 by transmogrified

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Yes, I was connecting the statements made by Jesus in John 6 that all that believe would be resurrected on the last day to 1 Thess. 4.

There is no last day in the specific verse as you said...in other words it does not come out and say 'And it shall come to pass on the last day that the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and the dead in Christ shall rise first...' But when we read what Paul said that we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, then we know that PART of the saints do not get resurrected at one time, and then the other part of the saints get resurrected at another time...

* "Yes, I was connecting the statements made by Jesus in John 6 that all that believe would be resurrected on the last day to 1 Thess. 4."

A: As previously stated. Jesus nor Paul ever used the phrase "on the last day".

* "But when we read what Paul said that we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, then we know that PART of the saints do not get resurrected at one time, and then the other part of the saints get resurrected at another time."

A: There are no dead that don't get raised up.. and there is no part which doesn't get changed within the event that Paul described in 1 Cor. 15.

"..we shall all be changed.." When reading with understanding of who "we" is.. then we know that he's talking about the dead in Christ which get raised up.. and also about all believers who are alive.

When you said "then we know that PART of the saints do not get resurrected at one time, and then the other part of the saints get resurrected.."

There are any number of times that I don't use verse references when I'm posting on a topic. But in this case it's vitally important to use scripture verses because you are describing two different events each taught by two different apostles, that happen in two different timeframes.

In 1 Cor.15, nor in 1 Thes.4.. Paul teaching both, he doesn't say "part of the saints".

So where has the phrase come from?

I would say that it comes from preachers/teachers who don't meticulously read a text within context so they think that any mention anywhere in the Bible is talking about the exact same thing.

Continuing on.. When the event described in 1 Thes.4 occurs.. there are no words which say that part get resurrected at another time.

However, what is stated by John in Revelations 20, is a separate event of resurrection altogether. This is the only way that the remainder of your paragraph can be theologically correct "and then the other part of the saints get resurrected at another time..."

In order to make it easily understood.. just think of the 1 Thes.4 event happening on one 24hr day (just for fun lets use 'Tuesday').. and the Revel.20:5-6 event happening on another 24hr day (lets use 'Friday').

Eschatologically the two events do happen on different days. The first occurrence happening at the end of the church age. The second occurrence happening at the end of the 7 year Tribulation.

They are not the same event and cannot be occurring both on the same day.

When someone is not specific in separating the events then anyone could wrongly assume that they happen at the same hour,day,week,month,year.

 

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

And this is also in accordance with what Jesus said about him raising all believers on the last day...that is the point...the resurrection of all believers does not take place until the last day, and we know the dead in Christ must be resurrected before the rapture can take place so we know there could be no rapture before the last day as pre trib has put forth.

A: Again.. Jesus did not say that he would raise all believers on the last day. The phrase 'last day' is from Jewish eschatology as Martha understood it. At that time there was no church so they only knew what Daniel wrote of that is for the most part concerning the Jews.

What Paul and John wrote of concerning the church is 'a mystery' that the Jews didn't know about.

The pre-trib rapture is the event that happens to the church, that will end the church age. It does not somehow make impossible the later resurrection of Rev.20:5-6. <- the one that Martha was talking about.

The dead in Christ that Paul speaks of in 1 Thes.4; 1 Cor.15 are saying what will happen to the Christian believers of the church age.

From the fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts 1-2 until today so far, it is the church age.

No Christian living in the church age will go into the 7 year Tribulation because that is not the church age.. it is Daniel's 70th week that is also called the time of Jacob's trouble. It's primarily concerning the Jews. Any Gentile believers are only called 'saints', not 'the church', 'not Christians'.

Any Christian that teaches a tribulation rapture for the church age Christians have an erroneous doctrine.

* "we know the dead in Christ must be resurrected before the rapture can take place so we know there could be no rapture before the last day as pre trib has put forth."

A: Since you put any raising from the dead or resurrection into an occurrence that would happen at one time at one day - - 'the last day'.. it's clear that you are putting all of the eggs into one basket. I do agree with you that there is no rapture immediately before, nor after the Revel. resurrection. That is why you say that there couldn't be any pre-trib rapture. Because you are using the Jewish eschatology, not understanding that theirs is different from that of the Christians of the church age.

To rightly understand what each apostle tells us, we must rightly divide the word of God.. especially in the case of eschatology.

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Going through this list, there are no saints that would not be included in the resurrection on the last day. It includes Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, Tribulation saints, the two witnesses...in other words ALL SAINTS are resurrected on the last day...there is no category for 'church age saints' or 'tribulation saints' or 'Old Testament saints..'

A: What Jesus said was to the Jews because the church didn't exist yet, it only refers to those who would die within the time of Daniel's 70th week because that is when there is only a resurrection that occurs at the last day of Daniel's week/7yr Tribulation.

You're so hung up on the 'last day' term so I'll accommodate you... including verse references to show categories.

When Jesus was resurrected Mat. 27:51-52 was when all of the old testament saints were raised up with him.. it was the last day of his entombment.

The new testament saints are the church age Christians... 1 Thes.4; 1 Cor.15 is for all of us.. the rapture will happen on the last day of the church age.

The tribulation saints will be resurrected as said in Revel.20.. the last day of Daniel's 70th week.

No. All saints are not resurrected on the last day of Daniel's 70th week because each different verse, clearly shows different timeframes that each occurs.

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

The saints are rewarded at the 7th trumpet...according to pre trib, there have already been saints resurrected, judged and rewarded before the tribulation, but scripture shows them ALL being rewarded at the 7th trumpet, and ALL being resurrected on the last day, and ALL being changed at the last trump.

The seventh trumpet vss.15-19 of Chapt.11 is immediately following the two witnesses ministry on the earth during the 7yr. Tribulation.

The twenty-four elders of Rev.11:16 are representative of the old testament and new testament church age believers. They got raised up and raptured before the Tribulation began.. (Mat.27 & 1 Thes.4; 1 Cor.15) {pre-trib rapture}

* "but scripture shows them ALL being rewarded at the 7th trumpet, and ALL being resurrected on the last day, and ALL being changed at the last trump."

A: Scripture does not show the same event for all. However, you try to show that the same thing happens to all in one event by ignoring the different texts in the different new testament books written by different authors, and different timeframes, when each event occurs.

Regarding the Jewish idiom "the last trump".. it is not the same event as "the 7th trumpet" of Revelation. The context of each chapter where both are found makes that obvious.

Every Jewish moed is observed every year. Their Passover coincides with our Easter. Their Pentecost coincides with the birth of the church. So their Rosh Hashanah coincides with the rapture of the church.

The Jews observe the last trump every year. It occurs during the moed of Rosh Hashanah or the Feast of Trumpets. It is celebrated every time of the year coinciding with our autumn. The idiom refers to the blowing of a shofar horn in a series of specific notes, the last note is held the longest. The longest note is called by the apostle Paul and the Jews today- "the last trump". The celebration is at the time of harvest. Also including the dead being raised up at the time of it's fulfillment.

When it's fulfilled before the Tribulation it cannot be fulfilled again at the last day of the Tribulation.

[Joulre2abba]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:19 AM, transmogrified said:

Yes, of course it is logical that a rapture would occur after the resurrection...the point is placing the resurrection on the last day precludes the rapture from happening before the tribulation...

A: The resurrection on the last day is only found in Revelations 20:5-6, which is very much different from the pre-trib raising of the dead and rapture of all the church age saints that yes, does happen before the Tribulation.

The Apostle Paul wrote in 2 Thes.2 that the church is what keeps the lawless one from revealing himself. But, Paul continued, when he (the church- Body of Christ) is taken out of the way by rapture 1 Thes.4, then the lawless one appears.

Daniel writes of the lawless one making a covenant with many for one week., ie., Daniel's 70th week. And the 7yr. Tribulation goes from there.

You can't have a Tribulation without the anti-christ. So the pre-Trib rapture is vital for a continuation of prophecy fulfillment.

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

* "Yes, I was connecting the statements made by Jesus in John 6 that all that believe would be resurrected on the last day to 1 Thess. 4."

A: As previously stated. Jesus nor Paul ever used the phrase "on the last day".

I was quoting scriptures from 4 places in John 6 that uses the phrase 'on the last day.'

Some versions use the phrase 'on' the last day, some use 'at' the last day, and some use 'in' the last day...

I didn't say Paul used the phrase 'on the last day' but the people resurrected on the last day according to Jesus are without exception any and all categories of saints, whether they be Old or New Testament, whether they be tribulation saints, or the alleged church age saints. 

Jesus used the phrase 4 times:

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John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

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 Jhn 6:40

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

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Jhn 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

 

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Jhn 6:54

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Jesus also said the wicked who reject him would be judged on the last day: 

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Jhn 12:48

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Did Jesus use the phrase 'on the last day?'

[transmogrified]

 

 

19 hours ago, Joulre2abba said:

On 5/1/2022 at 10:19 PM, transmogrified said:

Going through this list, there are no saints that would not be included in the resurrection on the last day. It includes Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, Tribulation saints, the two witnesses...in other words ALL SAINTS are resurrected on the last day...there is no category for 'church age saints' or 'tribulation saints' or 'Old Testament saints..'

A: What Jesus said was to the Jews because the church didn't exist yet, it only refers to those who would die within the time of Daniel's 70th week because that is when there is only a resurrection that occurs at the last day of Daniel's week/7yr Tribulation.

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What Jesus said was to the Jews because the church didn't exist yet

And what is the difference between a Jew who gets saved and a Gentile who gets saved? Nothing. This is an artificial distinction.. God is not going to resurrect believing Jews at any other time than believing Gentiles...a believing Jew is in the Church just as much as a believing Gentile is in the Church...Paul said there is no difference... 

If you are going to say the last day resurrection pertains only to those who die within the time of Daniel's 70th week then they cannot be designated only as 'saints', but not as Christians as you said here: 

 

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It's primarily concerning the Jews. Any Gentile believers are only called 'saints', not 'the church', 'not Christians'.

Look at the definition of who is resurrected on the last day...they are believers and part of the congregation just as much as you or I.

Here is the first category:

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And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jesus said ALL those who God has given to him he would raise up at the last day. ALL those who God has given to Christ does not mean PART of those who God has given to Christ...there is no designation of what time frame they lived in. God gave ALL the saints to Jesus. If he gave ALL the saints to Jesus, there is no one who God gave to Christ who would not be included in this resurrection. God did not give just the saints from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture to Christ...No. All the saints were given to Christ...this means Abel, Abraham, Moses, Peter, Paul, the two witnesses, those who lived during the tribulation...they are all his saints and they were all given by God to Jesus...

Nor can it be said that these are 'saints' but not 'the church,' or 'not Christians..' You cannot be a saint living in the tribulation and not be in the church...you cannot be in the church and not be a saint...the new testament does not cease to exist at the beginning of the tribulation...Saints are called the church in the New Testament and they don't cease to be in the church just because they are now living during the tribulation. 

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Any Gentile believers are only called 'saints', not 'the church', 'not Christians'.

The scripture identifies who will be resurrected, judged and rewarded at the 7th Trumpet...They are:

1) The saints...he did not say 'tribulation saints,' he said 'the saints...' Of course this included everyone who followed God whether from the Old Testament or the New..

2) His servants the prophets...it does not say 'Old Testament prophets,' it says 'thy servants the prophets.' Were only Old Testament prophets his servants, while new testament servants were not? Of course not. These are artificial distinctions inserted into the text.

3) Them that fear his name, both small and great....Of course this does not say 'those that fear his name, both small and great but  only the prophets from the Old Testament and just those who fear his name, both small and great  who lived during the tribulation, and the two witnesses who feared his name. No. These are artificial distinctions inserted into the text...Them that fear his name, both small and great includes all those who lived from Pentecost just as much as it would include those who were saints in any other time frame.

Blessings to you...Gary