You Cannot Believe What Jesus Said, And Be Pre-Trib

[Hobie_]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a resurrection or a rapture to heaven, before Jesus Returns. 

We must endure until the end, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10 and when Jesus Returns; He will bring our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27 

Wouldn't it be better to believe the real truth about what God has planned for the end times?   If nothing else: be ready for disappointment and whatever happens, never give up your faith. Always trust in His protection.

You have got to look not just say what someone comes up with or claims...

John 11:24

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 5:28-30

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 1:11

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

John 14:1-3

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hebrews 11:16

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

John 3:3

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Need to read your Bible...

Edited April 8, 2022 by Hobie_

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Keras said:

Nowhere does the Bible say there will be a resurrection or a rapture to heaven, before Jesus Returns. 

Exactly...he comes immediately after the tribulation and that is when the resurrection / rapture takes place..That day is the Day of Christ that Paul was saying would not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed...

I was not saying there would be a resurrection or rapture to heaven before Jesus returns..rather I was meaning the rapture could not take place before the last day, because the resurrection must happen first before the rapture, and if the resurrection does not happen until the last day, then there could be no rapture before the last day...

 

 

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Like everyone else, I have thoughts about the Whore of Babylon, this One World mystery religion, sitting on many waters (nations). Much too long to get into detail.

It seems logical for this “religion” before the kings crush it to be an ecumenical and universal type of religion, politically correct if you will.

Is there a religion passed down from ancient Babylon through the Roman empire, gaining power and becoming the Holy Roman Empire? That is drunk with the blood of the saints (inquisitions, crusades, persecutions)?

Sitting on seven mountains, with a detailed description in Rev. 18:11-14. There’s a lot of debate about the seven hills, but I have some pictures of cathedrals, purple & scarlet, gold & silver, frankincense, and everything else that says it all. I’ll post one for reference and thought.

I am watching this present Pope Francis, the bizarre things coming out of his mouth. His successful ecumenical movement and letters of agreement with Muslim sects. His trip to Abraham’s homeland, Ur, and what was said and done there.

When asked if homosexuality and lesbianism are wrong, he replied, who am I to judge.

The first-ever Jesuit Pope is suspicious, considering the function and history of the Jesuits. To my knowledge, he has never talked about the Gospel and the only way to Salvation. He is an open socialist-communist who favors and supports a One World global government.

The Saint Malachy Pope prophecies are thought-provoking right now.

I am not playing pin the tail on the donkey, but let’s talk about ducks?

If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck… Is it possibly a precursor?

 

Have you ever wondered how it is possible that God designates the four parts of the effigy of Daniel 2 as FOUR consecutive world powers, which we know spanned 500 years (if you don't count Rome's present influence), but when the feet of clay and iron are attacked THE WHOLE EFFIGY COLLAPSES? How is this possible when it was Persia that crushed Babylon, Greece that crushed Persia, and Rome that crushed Greece?

The answer lies in the Name - Mystery Babylon the Great (Whore). The four parts of the effigy are four world powers each with a distinct political system. But the cement that held this effigy to ONE MAN is its RELIGION - the religion that Nimrod developed long before Egypt became the first world power. Mao Zedong called religion, "the opium of the people" - and not without cause. A man might obey if you call his career into question. A man might obey if you call his finances into question. I man might obey for his wife's sake, or his country's sake. But he will do it in a considered way and even refuse. But if you can convince the man that you hold his ETERNAL FUTURE in your power, he most likely to obey you. And this is the power of BOTH God's religion AND Babylon's religion.

The cement that makes ONE EFFIGY out of four different national and political entities, is WHAT THEY BELIEVE THE GODS CAN DO TO THEM. So although Revelation points all evidence to Rome and a Roman Caesar as the Beast, the Name is Babylon. Nimrod's religion permeates and drives the beliefs of all of them. So when Christ, the Stone not cut out with hands, smashes the feet, the whole comes tumbling down. Why?

Any Nation, Association, Sect or Club has three pillars holding it up. (i) It has a political constitution, (ii) it has a financial institution, and these two are driven by (iii) a religious philosophy. When the Beast demands and commands universal worship, he internally (and violently) changes the RELIGION to OCCULT MONOTHEISM, and like many emperors before him, directs ALL worship to himself. In this, he inadvertently plays into God's hands. God, instead of having to deal with ca. 10,000 religions is now left to deal with one - clever.

The same goes for the political landscape. All power is concentrated in one - a head of gold. Nebuchadnezzar was a fearsome sovereign king with all power over life and death, money and politics. Topple him ad a vacuum ensues. God draws the Head to Armageddon and on one crushing blows, ends the power of the Head. The Nations are left rudderless, and powerless. Into this vacuum steps Jesus, King of kings with a rod of iron

The last pillar is the financial system. The dream of every man who loves money (all of us), is ALCHEMY! The ability to change something worthless into something valuable. The National Banks worldwide create money out of nothing - a ledge entry. then they lend this bogus money and demand interest. the interest is real. It is your seat and my sweat as we PRODUCE something real. But it is a powderpuff. It just needs a man, or group to have control of the press for one day to expose it. When every man claims his money he will discover that it is NON-EXISTENT. This is Revelation 18. In Chapter 17 the Beast trashes the world's religions. In Chapter 18, God, Who has a Personal vendetta against a system that trust in mammon and not Him, destroys the financial system, And in Chapter 19, God gathers an elect who have learned battle in their lifetimes, and makes an arm to remove the Beast's politico-military power at Armageddon.

The whole front is The Holy Roman Empire. The Backing is the Roman Empire. The All-permeating religious system is Nimrods Babylon. Our Lord Jesus, by Masterful tactics, deals with the WHOLE world system in one magnificent move.

Who is like our Lord of Hosts?

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Jesus stated all believers are raised at the last day, so there is no believers that can be resurrected at any other time...Paul specifically states that the dead in Christ rise first and then the rapture...it cannot still be maintained that there is a pre trib resurrection going in 1 Thess. 4...Just like all the believers did not get raptured today because the resurrection is not scheduled until the last day...the rapture cannot happen until that resurrection takes place..it would be like standing at the train depot waiting for your train that you thought was supposed to be there on Friday, but it actually wasn't scheduled to be there until next Wednesday...it doesn't matter if I believed it was supposed to be there on Friday. There is no train leaving until the last day.

That has to be first established in our thinking...if there is no pre trib resurrection it cannot still be assumed to be there just because it is presumed the two accounts are so different they cannot be the same event.. 

The snapshot picture of what actually happens at the resurrection is shown in the two witnesses...they are killed and they lay in the street for 3.5 days...after three days it says the spirit of life from God enters them and they stand upon their feet...So the bodies have already begun to decompose but when the spirit of Life from God enters them they are resurrected from the state of death they were in and their bodies were changed...of course this happens at the resurrection...this is when this mortality puts on immortality..they do not ascend up in flesh and blood mortal bodies..they are resurrected and changed, and then they hear a voice from heaven saying 'come up hither,' and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...'

So where did they go? They went up to heaven..the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven...it says they rise first...this rising first means of course they were resurrected before the rapture, but it also means they ascended up first...so we take a step back and say, where did they go? They went up to heaven...so they are now up there with Jesus in the third heaven where God is.

This is where Rev. 19 starts out and says 'I heard a great voice of much people in heaven...saying Alleluia...Salvation and glory...for he hath judged the great whore...so they got there just after the destruction of the great whore which does not happen before the tribulation...it happens at the end of the tribulation when all this great multitude of much people was heard in heaven...

So banking on what Jesus said in John 6 and other places, we know these people that were in heaven had just arrived via the resurrection that just took place on the last day...not a pre trib event at all...the saints were not in heaven before because there was no resurrection of anyone before that would enable them to ascend up to heaven...

So where are we? We are on the last day..God has just judged the great whore, the dead in Christ are now in heaven and getting ready to descend down with Jesus for Armageddon.

So what happens with those who are alive and remain who get raptured? Well, as 1 Thess. 4 states the dead in Christ ascend first...so they are in heaven according to Rev. 19, ready to descend down to earth at Armageddon...This is specified in 1 Thes. 4 that 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him...' This is the army that is coming down in Rev. 19 to Armageddon....but then what does it say about those who are alive and remain? They are caught To MEET THEM in the air...so as those sleeping in Jesus are descending, the raptured saints meet them, but then what happens? Of course they don't go back to heaven...this is non sense...they meet the resurrected saints and continue on downward to Armageddon...

So lets do a little snapshot of those who are alive and remain...it says two shall be in the field, one shall be taken and the other left...ect...So what is going on here? The one who is taken is taken in the rapture, leaving the other one behind...but then the the disciples ask the magic question...they say 'Where Lord?' Where what? Jesus says one is taken and the other left, so they are asking him where the one that was taken was taken to...where was he taken? Jesus said 'Where the carcase is there will the eagles be gathered together...this is Armageddon where the birds eat the flesh of the mighty men and so forth..they are taken THAT VERY DAY to Armageddon with the resurrected saints and ALL the saints come with Jesus as it says...he cometh with ten thousands of his saints...to execute vengeance at Armageddon. But this whole context happened at the end of the tribulation...not a pre trib event at all.

The gathering is dealt with in both settings...the account in 1 Thess. 4 shows the dead in Christ are raised...this is another way of saying what Paul said in 2 Thess. 2 'our gathering together unto him..' Jesus said it this way 'He shall gather together his elect from the uttermost part of the earth, to the uttermost part of heaven..." So  we just saw how the dead in Christ have ascended up to heaven...so they are now there in heaven...Jesus says he now gathers these resurrected saints from the uttermost part of heaven and then gathers those from the uttermost part of the earth, these were those who were raptured from the earth.

But 1 Thess. 4 says something that connects what is going on. Matthew 24 just has the resurrected saints and the raptured saints gathered, but then it kind of leaves you hanging as to what they do next....1 Thess. 4 fills in what happens next..God brings those sleeping in Jesus with him...so Matthew has them up in heaven, 1 Thess. shows God descending down the earth WiTH the dead in Christ, and then 1 Thess. 4 also highlights the detail of the gathering from the earth (the raptured in Matthew 24) are caught up to meet the dead in Christ as then they all form this army that is following Jesus back on his white horse to Armageddon...

You can see that each account fills in date to clarify what is going on that the other account did not mention.

Matthew accounts for something not mentioned in 1 Thess...it does not mean these are two different events.

Agreed

This is God assembling his army to fight at Armageddon...the Jews are converted At the second coming after Jesus descend to the earth...they say 'where did you get these nail prints in your hands...? God fights for them when he returns and it is at that point he pours out his spirit upon them and they are grafted back in...the elect that he is coming down from heaven with are his saints from all time...as it says he comes 'and all the saints with him...' Israel is not converted at the time the saints come down...the elect are his saints from Adam until the Second Coming 

.Israel is not the elect until they get converted...God said he would graft them back in IF they continue not in unbelief...he does this when he returns and fights for them, the 144000 are not part of these coming down from heaven.

The dead in Christ and the elect are the same thing...When it says, 'then shall all the tribes of earth mourn,' it has nothing to do with the 144000 coming down with the saints ...the 'tribes' is also translated 'nations' and it is all those out of every kindred, nation and tongue who come out of great tribulation and wash their robes...these are the nations who convert at the Second Coming...the nations are still on the earth, but the saints are his elect who return with him...God inherits the nations and they come under his rule...the mourning, and wailing spoken here and also in Rev. 1:8 is when the nations repent at the Second Coming.

"...and then shall all the tribes (or nations or people) of the earth mourn.."

"...and all kindreds (or nations, or people) of the earth shall wail because of him..." Rev. 1:7

Both describe the Coming of the Lord...for 1 Thes. 4 to be the coming of the Lord it can not happen until the last day...Matthew 24 describes the coming of the Lord with his saints...his saints can not be gathered until the last day...Paul says that day in which both the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him will not come except there come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed...this, along with no saints resurrected until the last day places 1 Thes. 4 on the last day...there are not two gatherings of the saints on the last day..that would be non sense...there are not two comings of the Lord on the last day...that would also be non sense...both accounts deal with resurrected saints...Paul said we would all be changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...both accounts deal with saints who have put on immortality...Paul says ALL of us will be changed at the same time...its the same event. 

Blessings to you- Gary

You have written much and tried to answer comprehensively. I appreciate this. Thanks.

Instead of rebutting you point for point, I will briefly lay forth my understanding. I am aware that it will not agree with yours, not because we deal with different events, but because your understanding of the "Last Day" is different to mine. So let me start with that.

Adam was created last of the living creatures on the sixth day. That is, his first day was God's Sabbath. Two things are glaringly obvious about this seventh day;

- It was called the Lord's day - for in it He ceased from His work and He had His man in place to subdue and rule

- It was the only day NOT DEFINED by the "evening and the morning". It is defined by the length of Adam's life. The threat was; "IN the day you eat ... you shall surely die". And Adam lived 930 years. Romans 5 gives the "wages" of Adam's transgression (singular) as the cause of PHYSICAL death - which was passed o to all men. Added to this this, Hebrews Chapter 3 and 4 predict that there is a future Sabbath (Rest) and it is based on the failure of Israel to occupy the Good Land. Expositors differ slightly on how long Israel occupied the Good Land from Joshua till the Babylonian deportation, but ALL agree that it was just short of 1,000 years

- The time from Adam to Christ is also disputed, but ALL agree on a period of around 4,000 years. Hosea 6:2 gives the time of Israel's chastisement as TWO DAYS "after which" Israel will be be restored. History, and the heptadic structure of scripture, make the time of Christ's return from Adam as 6,000 years. That is, God will have His Man (Jesus) subduing and ruling he earth from the beginning of the 7,000-year period.

Now, you might reject the conclusion, but the above calculations show that Adam's Sabbath, Israel's Sabbath and the future "Rest" are all a DAY of 1,000 years. And the concept of "The DAY of the Lord" is that this day is His PERSONALLY. It is a "day" in which He gets to do His things and a day in which He enjoys. In ALL THREE examples above, God has His man in position to subdue and rule while He could REST. In the first TWO CASES, Adam and Israel failed. But in the coming future REST, based on the Second Adam - Jesus Christ, GOD HAS HIS SABBATH.

Interpreting scripture with scripture, the only "DAY" that first ALL THIS EVIDENCE is the "day" of 1,000 years.

And around this turns our whole difference of opinion. Your time-table must be forced into 24-hour period. And if it is so, you are correct. My Time-Table has enough time to:
- Raise the firstfruits of the Church
- Raise the slothful of the Church later when they are ripe
- Raise Israel after the Great Tribulation
- Have the Wedding Feast
- Judge the Nations in Matthew 25
- Set up His Kingdom in which we will judge angels and the nations
- Set up the twelve Apostles to judge the twelve Tribes of Israel
- Rule the Nations for 1,000 years with a rod of iron
- Release Satan and combat the rebellion of Magog
- Have the White Throne judgment

And all this STILL "AT" the Last day.

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Have you ever wondered how it is possible that God designates the four parts of the effigy of Daniel 2 as FOUR consecutive world powers, which we know spanned 500 years (if you don't count Rome's present influence), but when the feet of clay and iron are attacked THE WHOLE EFFIGY COLLAPSES? How is this possible when it was Persia that crushed Babylon, Greece that crushed Persia, and Rome that crushed Greece?

The answer lies in the Name - Mystery Babylon the Great (Whore). The four parts of the effigy are four world powers each with a distinct political system. But the cement that held this effigy to ONE MAN is its RELIGION - the religion that Nimrod developed long before Egypt became the first world power. Mao Zedong called religion, "the opium of the people" - and not without cause. A man might obey if you call his career into question. A man might obey if you call his finances into question. I man might obey for his wife's sake, or his country's sake. But he will do it in a considered way and even refuse. But if you can convince the man that you hold his ETERNAL FUTURE in your power, he most likely to obey you. And this is the power of BOTH God's religion AND Babylon's religion.

The cement that makes ONE EFFIGY out of four different national and political entities, is WHAT THEY BELIEVE THE GODS CAN DO TO THEM. So although Revelation points all evidence to Rome and a Roman Caesar as the Beast, the Name is Babylon. Nimrod's religion permeates and drives the beliefs of all of them. So when Christ, the Stone not cut out with hands, smashes the feet, the whole comes tumbling down. Why?

Any Nation, Association, Sect or Club has three pillars holding it up. (i) It has a political constitution, (ii) it has a financial institution, and these two are driven by (iii) a religious philosophy. When the Beast demands and commands universal worship, he internally (and violently) changes the RELIGION to OCCULT MONOTHEISM, and like many emperors before him, directs ALL worship to himself. In this, he inadvertently plays into God's hands. God, instead of having to deal with ca. 10,000 religions is now left to deal with one - clever.

The same goes for the political landscape. All power is concentrated in one - a head of gold. Nebuchadnezzar was a fearsome sovereign king with all power over life and death, money and politics. Topple him ad a vacuum ensues. God draws the Head to Armageddon and on one crushing blows, ends the power of the Head. The Nations are left rudderless, and powerless. Into this vacuum steps Jesus, King of kings with a rod of iron

The last pillar is the financial system. The dream of every man who loves money (all of us), is ALCHEMY! The ability to change something worthless into something valuable. The National Banks worldwide create money out of nothing - a ledge entry. then they lend this bogus money and demand interest. the interest is real. It is your seat and my sweat as we PRODUCE something real. But it is a powderpuff. It just needs a man, or group to have control of the press for one day to expose it. When every man claims his money he will discover that it is NON-EXISTENT. This is Revelation 18. In Chapter 17 the Beast trashes the world's religions. In Chapter 18, God, Who has a Personal vendetta against a system that trust in mammon and not Him, destroys the financial system, And in Chapter 19, God gathers an elect who have learned battle in their lifetimes, and makes an arm to remove the Beast's politico-military power at Armageddon.

The whole front is The Holy Roman Empire. The Backing is the Roman Empire. The All-permeating religious system is Nimrods Babylon. Our Lord Jesus, by Masterful tactics, deals with the WHOLE world system in one magnificent move.

Who is like our Lord of Hosts?

I agree. It all started with Nimrod and was passed down from Nimrod (Babylon), Persia, Greece, Rome I, and the Holy Roman Empire of our day. What is being passed down and shared between all of them and today? False gods are being venerated, worshipped, and prayed to, the abominable religious system, idolatry, and central figures, leaders, and vicars whose edicts are inerrant and infallible—starting to sound familiar?

What goes on in the shadows inside the Vatican is a mystery itself. Have you ever read books and interviews from Catholic priests in the know, spilling the beans about the demonic cult inside the Vatican and the rituals? Child sexual abuse was covered up for decades, which is disproportional to any other religion and denomination.

With Nimrod and the Tower of Babel, what else was passed down through the empires to today? To answer that, we must understand why Nimrod was building a “high place” out in the middle of the flat Shinar desert. I’m sure you know the exact reason, so that I won’t elaborate. As many of us know, it was not for a Trump Tower skyscraper or astrological observatory.

Most likely to get back in touch with the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown, the legionary Titians (Nephilim), and demons. To regain lost pre-flood knowledge, worship, sacrifice to them and ask favors. When taken in the correct context, the iron and clay are noteworthy:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. [emphasis added]

A detailed word study with multiple lexicons clarifies the correct meaning of the noun “seed.” The question is, who are they mixing with the seed of men?

The many commentaries I have by some of the brightest biblical minds seem to conveniently leave out any mention of they and the seed of men in Daniel 2:43. As well as misinterpreting Genesis 3:15 with the Cain-Seth view. I don’t mean to step on any ten toes. 😊

You probably know where I am heading, so I will leave it.

[transmogrified]

13 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And around this turns our whole difference of opinion. Your time-table must be forced into 24-hour period. And if it is so, you are correct. My Time-Table has enough time to:
- Raise the firstfruits of the Church
- Raise the slothful of the Church later when they are ripe
- Raise Israel after the Great Tribulation
- Have the Wedding Feast
- Judge the Nations in Matthew 25
- Set up His Kingdom in which we will judge angels and the nations
- Set up the twelve Apostles to judge the twelve Tribes of Israel
- Rule the Nations for 1,000 years with a rod of iron
- Release Satan and combat the rebellion of Magog
- Have the White Throne judgment

And all this STILL "AT" the Last day.

Yes, I believe there is a 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints on the earth, and I realize some things will not take place on one single say...for example when the nations go up from year to year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem, this is not something that takes place on one single day but occurs throughout the entire 1000 year time span...

But when we are talking about ALL the saints being changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, we realize this is not something that occurs throughout the entire 1000 year time span but would occur on one day only...

If he said something like 'we shall all individually be resurrected over a period that takes 1000 years', then it would be different. But he said all of us, collectively, will be changed in one moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last trump.

So there is no such thing as some being changed at some point during the 1000 years and some others being changed at another time during the 1000 years...No.  All are changed at one time...so as far as the resurrection is concerned it wouldn't matter if it was a million year reign, or a five month reign...the time it takes to resurrect everyone happens on one single day only.

So it says when Jesus comes, he will come with all his saints in these three scriptures: 

1 Thess. 3:13 says '...when he comes with all his saints..'

Zech. 14 :5 "....and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee..'

Jude 14 says ''Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.'

Which scripture below shows Jesus returning with all his saints?...is it:

1) 1 Thess. 4:15-17   

2) Matthew 24:29- 31   

3) Rev. 19:14 

Blessings to you - Gary

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, I believe there is a 1000 year reign of Christ and his saints on the earth, and I realize some things will not take place on one single say...for example when the nations go up from year to year to worship the Lord in Jerusalem, this is not something that takes place on one single day but occurs throughout the entire 1000 year time span...

But when we are talking about ALL the saints being changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump, we realize this is not something that occurs throughout the entire 1000 year time span but would occur on one day only...

If he said something like 'we shall all individually be resurrected over a period that takes 1000 years', then it would be different. But he said all of us, collectively, will be changed in one moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye, at the Last trump.

So there is no such thing as some being changed at some point during the 1000 years and some others being changed at another time during the 1000 years...No.  All are changed at one time...so as far as the resurrection is concerned it wouldn't matter if it was a million year reign, or a five month reign...the time it takes to resurrect everyone happens on one single day only.

So it says when Jesus comes, he will come with all his saints in these three scriptures: 

1 Thess. 3:13 says '...when he comes with all his saints..'

Zech. 14 :5 "....and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee..'

Jude 14 says ''Behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.'

Which scripture below shows Jesus returning with all his saints?...is it:

1) 1 Thess. 4:15-17   

2) Matthew 24:29- 31   

3) Rev. 19:14 

Blessings to you - Gary

We are very close now, and this is great. Just one point (and its probably semantics), we were not discussing our Lord Return. We were discussing whether there were multiple gatherings at the rapture. That our Lord RETURNS with "all" His saints is not disputed. The farmer harvests firstfruits and they go into the first vat on the wagon. Three weeks later he gathers the general harvest. It goes into the second vat on the wagon. The gleanings belong to the weak, fatherless and the widows, but the farmer lets them ride to town on the wagon anyway. The farmer has had multiple gatherings but he COMES to town WITH ALL.

It's been a pleasure to exchange ideas. Go well.

[Keras]

On 4/8/2022 at 11:43 PM, Hobie_ said:

John 5:28-30

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This prophecy will be fulfilled after the Millennium, that 'hour' will come at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 29:11-15

The only people who will be brought back to mortal life when Jesus Returns, will be the GT martyrs. Rev 20:4

[transmogrified]

On 4/7/2022 at 9:38 PM, transmogrified said:

On 4/7/2022 at 1:46 PM, Keras said:

ALL the 'saints'; dead faithful Christian people, do not Return with Jesus,

 

1 Thess. 3:13

Quote

To the end he may establish your hearts un blamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at he coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Zech. 14:5 

Quote

"...and the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with the...'

In order for all the saints to come with Jesus at the Second Coming they must be resurrected or raptured...

All the saints return withe Jesus at the Second Coming...Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years...

ALL his saints coming with Jesus does not mean

PART of his saints coming with Jesus

The tribulation saints are PART of his saints

The tribulation saints are not ALL of his saints..

Saying only the Tribulation saints come back with Jesus is saying PART of the saints will return with Jesus

Scripture does not say 'The Lord my God will come and PART of his saints...

Scripture says 'The Lord my God shall come and ALL his saints with him..

ALL and PART are not the same

Paul said 'At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with ALL his saints...' Paul did not say:

'At the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with PART of his saints...'

If all the saints come back with Jesus, then it is not true that only the tribulation saints are resurrected

When he said the 'dead in Christ will rise first,' it is acknowledged  that the tribulation saints are not the only saints who have died in Christ.

He showed us a mystery: He said 'We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump..'

 ALL being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye does not mean PART of us will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...

There is no category Jesus mentioned that he would raise the tribulation saints on the last day and the other saints at another day...he said ALL that believe on me will be raised at the last day

Combine this with we shall ALL be changed in a moment and you do not have part of the saints changed on the last day and another part of the saint changed at the end of the 1000 years...this is not ALL being changed in a moment...this is PART being changed in a moment, and another PART being changed at another time...

It is also contrary to all being changed at the Last Trump...the trumpet does not sound at the coming of the Lord, and then another trumpet sound at the end of the 1000 years...there is no trumpet at the end of the 1000 years and even if there they both could not be the last one

And who will be like him when he appears? Is it just the tribulation saints that get glorified bodies? No it is not.

John said 'We know not what WE shall be but we know that when he shall appear WE shall be like him, for WE shall see him as he is...'

He did not say 'We know not what WE shall be, but we know that when he shall appear the tribulation saints will be like him, for THEY shall see him as he is...'

No..All the saints will be like him WHEN he appears...not SOME when he appears and then the others will be like him 1000 years after he appears...

Blessings to you

[transmogrified]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

We were discussing whether there were multiple gatherings at the rapture. That our Lord RETURNS with "all" His saints is not disputed. The farmer harvests firstfruits and they go into the first vat on the wagon. Three weeks later he gathers the general harvest. It goes into the second vat on the wagon. The gleanings belong to the weak, fatherless and the widows, but the farmer lets them ride to town on the wagon anyway. The farmer has had multiple gatherings but he COMES to town WITH ALL.

There is not a resurrection for some of the saints at one time and then another resurrection of the saints at another time...Paul said we shall ALL be changed in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump...ALL the saints are COLLECTIVELY gathered at one time..this is the harvest of the wheat at the end of the age..

There are not 3 gatherings of the wheat...it says both the wheat and tares grow together until the (singular) harvest...Both are resurrected, judged and rewarded at the end of this age..There is not a harvest for the wheat before  the end of the age, and then another one before the end of the age, and then another one at the end of the age...NO. ONE harvest at the end of the age...

Same with the good and bad fish..the net is let down ONE time and not drawn to shore until it was full of both good and bad fish...it was not let down for part of the good fish at one time, and then let down at another time for the rest of the good fish, and then let down another time for just the bad fish...NO. The net let down ONE time, drawn to shore when it is full of BOTH Good and bad fish...

I am not talking about the resurrection at the end of the 1000 years, and neither are the above scriptures...the wheat and tares and good and bad fish are both referring to the resurrection at the Second Coming, on the Last day.

Take the scenario that was described in the above quote...

Quote

The farmer harvests firstfruits and they go into the first vat on the wagon. Three weeks later he gathers the general harvest.

This is exactly the scenario...Jesus was the first fruits, resurrected and entered into glory some 2000 years ago...the only other category is 'those that are Christ's at his coming...' 

So this what Paul said 'Christ the first fruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...' There is no 'Christ and some saints are the first fruits...NO. Christ is the first fruits, and then the only other group is ALL the saints at his coming...

I say ALL his saints, for Jesus explicitly stated that ALL that the Father gave to him he would raise on the last day...so all Gods sheep were given to Christ, so when he says 'Afterward, they that are Christ's, he means 'All the saints that God gave Christ will be resurrected at his coming...which is every saint in existence...it is not broken up into 'tribulation saints, church age saints, Old Testament saints..No. All these saints belong to Christ so they are all raised in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump...

Tie this in with he comes with ALL his saints, and they ALL have to be raised on the last day, because remember there is no resurrection for anyone until the last day...so there is no pre trib resurrection, hence no 1 Thess. 4 pre trib scenario, for it has the dead in Christ being raised in that setting which is impossible to occur before the last day...so it is a last day setting...and it is not sometime into the 1000 year last day, for ALL his saints come with him at the Second coming...so it ends up just like Jesus said...All believers will be raised at the last day...

Blessings to you- Gary