WOMEN PASTORS

[exrockstar]

i said:

the female worship leader, oh wait, scratch that, that was miriam.

i guess you didnt read very carefully.

she was a judge and a prophetess. i did not say she was a high priest. i said she fulfilled roles that were reserved strictly for males, and fulfilled them by God's authority, but did not hold office in that capacity.

please read carefully when i post. context is important.

well...Miriam was a prophetess. So how is this a "worship leader?"

Prophets have guidelines too.

so you think that because there were female prohets that woman can be pastors?

Pastors cannot do certaing things that prophets do.

Prophets cannot do things that pastors do.

the bible has female prophets...so yes i believe in them.

the guidline is in 2 Tim 3.

comments?

[Guest LadyC]

read exodus 15. miriam led in worship. and those women she led in singing and dancing certainly weren't offending God.

i think i'll say this and stop, because you keep asking the same questions i've already given full and complete answers to. obviously you aren't interested in understanding my position (which explains why you won't answer the question of whether or not you will respect mine as i do yours). you seem more intent on trying to have the final word... or trying to argue for the sake of argument, or whatever it is you're doing.

if you'd like to actually read and absorb what i have stated, and then continue the discussion, let me know. but otherwise i'll just agree to disagree and urge you to do the same.

[exrockstar]

read exodus 15. miriam led in worship. and those women she led in singing and dancing certainly weren't offending God.

i think i'll say this and stop, because you keep asking the same questions i've already given full and complete answers to. obviously you aren't interested in understanding my position (which explains why you won't answer the question of whether or not you will respect mine as i do yours). you seem more intent on trying to have the final word... or trying to argue for the sake of argument, or whatever it is you're doing.

if you'd like to actually read and absorb what i have stated, and then continue the discussion, let me know. but otherwise i'll just agree to disagree and urge you to do the same.

not even a problem. i'll read ex 15.

we all are free to do what we want.

we're all shooting for rewards.

edit: Mirium played a drum and women followed her in doing the same.

so how does she fall into being a spiritual leader such as a priest, pastor etc?

[Guest LadyC]

where did i say it did?

[jackie d]

back to 1 timothy 2.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

again.... nothing in this contradicts my position. the woman is to be in submission. a woman is not to have the authority over a man.

a woman is not to teach a man. now therein lies the crux of what i said regarding this could be debated over who she is allowed to teach, preach, or deliver a sermon to. and again, if she is delivering a sermon in lieu of the male pastor's absence, and yet the sermon has been authorized by the male pastor, who is actually in authority over the sermon being delivered? NOT the female pastor.

Hello LadyC,

I have heard this before where people think this scripture is saying that women cannot teach and man and that is wrong. It is not saying the cannot teach a man. It is saying that they cannot usurp the authority of a man. Meaning that women cannot take the same offices that were delegated to man by God in the forms of being pulpit preachers, elders, deacons, or bishops.

I have been around the church for many years and I take instruction, edification, and even rebuking from women teachers as well as preachers. It is just that the woman was never supposed to be in the offices that were given for the man to fulfill.

It is like in the OT the priests could only be male Levites. Now imagine if under the OT you have a female priest that was from the tribe of Reuben. That would never work because scripture gave the duties to the male Levites, but that did not stop female Prophets.

The same is in the NT. Only the men can hold the offices set forth by God, but that does not stop females from having gifts, teaching, sharing, spreading the gospel, etc.

you and i are in agreement cc... that's why i said the debate could focus on who a woman can teach. that seems to be the underlying current of the debate. i see nowhere in scripture that says a woman shall never teach a man, but like you, i see plenty of emphasis on a woman not usurping authority. the Bible has women doing male-only roles, but not ever holding an official office of that capacity.

the only authority I think that would be a problem "usurping" would be Christ's. Man has no more authority over woman than woman has over man. Regardless of what some people would like to think.

There is no authority as all has been made clean. All are equal, again neither male nor female, greek nor jew. In the end those who came last to Christ will receive the very same reward that those who came first did.

[exrockstar]

where did i say it did?

i thought you just said "mirium led in worship."

nevermind....im confused.

[Guest LadyC]

where did i say it did?

i thought you just said "mirium led in worship."

nevermind....im confused.

no problem. it was just a statement of fact. it seems as though i've seen a few posts in this thread that indicated women weren't allowed to serve as worship leaders either. i could be wrong, but i think i recall seeing a couple of comments to that effect.

[jackie d]

The man has been given the charge to be the preachers, bishops, deacons, and elders. A woman is not to usurp that authority given to man by doing the office he was given to. She is also commanded to remain silent in the churches.

if you say so. I say hogwash. I say that the conversations in those epistles were relating to issues around chaos and rudeness for the moment and was not some kind of blanket statement of authority for all time.

And for today, I believe it is used by insecure men and women who have been fed a bunch of malarchy all of their lives in the church or by some overbearing man in their life.

And please don't suggest that I don't like men. I love them a whole lot, I just don't care for chauvinistic attitudes or passive people pleasing attitudes. I stand for the Lord, I will teach, preach, and use authority where ever and when ever I believe the Lord is urging me to do so.....

It does not say "over Christ". It says, "over the man".

and in Christ there is neither male nor female. So who really is the Man being spoken of?

love and blessings

[Guest LadyC]

it is a valid point, it was addressing disorder and chaos that was taking place at that time in the church, and the letter was addressed TO a particular church that was in crisis, and isn't meant as the infrastructure for all churches.

God doesn't expect women to sit in total silence. and God help me (and most of the women here) if He does.

that being said, the heirarchy of authority is clear throughout scripture. yes, man and woman are equals.... in a marriage, and in the kingdom of God. however, just as the family unit has a chain of command, so does the church family unit. Christ is the final authority, followed by MAN, followed by women, followed by children.

[jackie d]

it is a valid point, it was addressing disorder and chaos that was taking place at that time in the church, and the letter was addressed TO a particular church that was in crisis, and isn't meant as the infrastructure for all churches.

God doesn't expect women to sit in total silence. and God help me (and most of the women here) if He does.

that being said, the heirarchy of authority is clear throughout scripture. yes, man and woman are equals.... in a marriage, and in the kingdom of God. however, just as the family unit has a chain of command, so does the church family unit. Christ is the final authority, followed by MAN, followed by women, followed by children.

you are absolutely correct and should I ever find myself in a postition that I had to speak up I would try to do it in a way that did not humiliate the head. I fully understand the roles of marriage and of the church and I even respect them. And whomever is the head of a church, man or woman, I would never attempt to "usurp" them. Still and all the only authority over me, is Christ especially when it comes to a teaching as silly as women not being allowed to lead.