Resurrection of the Just and the Unjust Happens At The Second Coming

[Shilohsfoal]

5 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The Son of God is in heaven...he ascended up from the Mt. of Olives some 2000 years ago...scripture says the heaven must receive him until the restitution of all things spoken of by the prophets...there are prophecies that have to be fulfilled before he comes back...he is not in Jerusalem right now...he ascended up far above all heavens...

When Gog invades Christ's kingdom on earth, Christ will be in it. 

Revelation shows those who are resurrected in the first resurection, reign WITH CHRIST for 1000 years. Then Gog invades Christ's kingdom. 

I bet Gog has no idea the resurection has even taken place when he does that. I bet he doesn't even know Christ is on earth when he tries to Invade the kingdom of Christ. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I bet Gog has no idea the resurection has even taken place when he does that. I bet he doesn't even know Christ is on earth when he tries to Invade the kingdom of Christ. 

It says the Devil goes out and deceives the nations to gather them together to battle...it doesn't say the devil  deceives them into thinking the saints haven't  been resurrected yet, nor does it say the devil deceives them into thinking Jesus is not on the earth

[Shilohsfoal]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It says the Devil goes out and deceives the nations to gather them together to battle...it doesn't say the devil  deceives them into thinking the saints haven't  been resurrected yet, nor does it say the devil deceives them into thinking Jesus is not on the earth

I said I bet Gog doesn't even know the son of God is living in Jerusalem at that time. I'm sure you believe he does know he is coming against the son of God though because you believe Gogs people had been resurrected also 1000 years before. They just be billions of immortal  people all over the earth who will never die. There's no way Gog couldn't know, right? 

But I've got this one question. Since you believe all Christians who have lived in the last 2000 years will all be resurrected at the same time. How is it that Gog is the chief ruler of Magog? How did someone Satan could enter into end up reigning over a multitude such as that? He would even be reigning over all the Saints of Magog who were resurrected in the first resurection. How did that happen? 

[transmogrified]

30 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

They just be billions of immortal  people all over the earth who will never die. There's no way Gog couldn't know, right? 

It is not a question that was ever brought up. The one thing it does say is 'when my people of Israel are dwelling safely shalt thou not know it?' 

 

33 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

But I've got this one question. Since you believe all Christians who have lived in the last 2000 years will all be resurrected at the same time.

Not only the believers from the past 2000 years, but all saints from the time of Adam to the Second Coming.

 

34 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

How is it that Gog is the chief ruler of Magog?

I'm not sure how something like that would be hard to reconcile. There are rulers over different lands in many places...

 

36 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

How did someone Satan could enter into end up reigning over a multitude such as that?

It doesn't say Satan entered into him, but it says he goes out to deceive the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog. From Ezekiel 39 it says:

"...set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, Thus saith the Lord God; behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal....and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army....handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them all of them with shield and helmet ...Gomer and all his bands ...Togarmah and many people with thee....

Gog is not the only one who gets deceived by the devil..all the people are deceived as well...so the deception is by the power of Satan...just like the beast before the Second Coming...the dragon gave him his power and seat and great authority, and all whose names were not written in the book of life worshipped him. Like Jesus said at his trial...'This is your hour and the power of darkness...' 

51 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

He would even be reigning over all the Saints of Magog who were resurrected in the first resurection.

No he would not reign over the saints in the first resurrection..this group is called 'the camp of the saints.' Those in the first resurrection are in immortal bodies and can never die...the fire comes down out of heaven and destroys those that come against the saints. There are those who are in immortal bodies who are in the first resurrection and they reign over the nations who are still in mortal bodies that will live and die during that time. These are the ones who the devil deceives at the end of the 1000 years...

[Diaste]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

Of course he is not asking the angel when will be the end of things that have no end...when he said they would shine forever and ever the question was already answered as to how long they would shine...

That's why I'm asking, "Which wonders?" So if it's only some then it's not all that are completed in 1335 days. Specifically Dan 12:2-3 seem to be outside the 1335 days since the reference to those who awake is everlasting. At least in part this isn't within 1335 days and so the time of awakening could also be outside that. Especially since the scripture isn't specific as to when the time of awakening is. I don't see, "At that time..." or "Then...", "Next..." etc. I do see "And..." This all falls under the Day of the Lord which is at least 1000 years. 

It will happen. The timing here isn't specific enough for me in light of the other scriptures which speak to the resurrected group in the 1st resurrection and the time of the 2nd death.

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

 

The other events specified do not last forever...Israel is not getting delivered for ever and ever. Michael does not stand for ever and ever...the time of trouble does not last forever...the resurrection does not last forever and ever...all the dead are raised at the 7th trumpet and are judged and rewarded at the Second Coming. The sheep and goat judgement does not last forever and ever... The goats are cast into the fire at the same time the sheep are rewarded. THEN he says to the sheep...enter into the kingdom...THEN he says to the goats....depart from ye cursed into everlasting fire. 

True, except for all the dead are not raised at the 2nd coming. It's no where depicted the wicked dead meet the Lord in the clouds of the air at the 2nd coming. That's only the dead in Christ and the the living.

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

The resurrection of the just and the unjust are not excluded from the list. Even you would agree the righteous are raised on the last day, which is the end of the reign of the beast.

I would not agree to 'on' only 'at'. 'En' is translated 'at' in the 5 times this 'at the last day' is mentioned. 'On' would suggest a date; 'at' is more like 'place' or 'in a time'. 

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

 

The wicked are resurrected at that very same time. It would be like if your mom told you to go the store and get

1) 1 dozen eggs...

2) 2 loaves of bread...and

3) 1 gallon of milk

And you say...'I see you are asking me to get 1 dozen eggs and 2 loaves of bread.' The only reason you only see 2 items instead of 3 is not because the gallon of milk was not on the list, but because you chose to believe there were only 2 things on the list. All three things are on the list...the resurrection of both the good and the bad are just as much on the list as the other 3.

'All these things shall be finished' includes all the things he just mentioned...'All these things' does not mean 'part of these things shall be finished.' 

We know not all are finished nor can be from Dan 12:2-3. That coupled with the lack of a specific date in 1-2 Thess, 1 Cor, Matt 7, Matt 25, John 6 and the specific attributes of those in the 1st resurrection from Rev 7 and 20 leads me to the conclusion the sheep and goats judgement is after Satan is released from prison after the millennium.

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

This is a timing issue between when the daily sacrifices are abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up...it has nothing to do with how long it takes to raise the dead, or when the dead would be resurrected. When the resurrection of the dead would be finished was already answered in verse 7.  The question was not 'how long will it take to raise the dead?' No. It was when the END of these wonders would be. When he said the END of these wonders, he meant when they would be completed. The END of the resurrection of both the good and the bad will be at the Second Coming. If he meant the wicked would be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, the angel would have said 'The righteous will be resurrected at the end of the 3.5 year reign of the beast, but the resurrection of the wicked will be at the end of the 1000 years.' 

A gap cannot be inserted because the wording itself prohibits it. 

A time of trouble does not make the resurrection of the wicked happen 1000 years later, any more than a time of trouble would make the resurrection of the righteous occur at the end of the 1000 years.  Jesus said Immediately after the tribulation he would gather his elect...this is the resurrection of the just...he didn't say, 'Because there was a tribulation the resurrection can not happen until 1000 years later...The time of trouble is one thing and the resurrection is another thing but the resurrection still happens on the last day. 

But I'm not arguing in that vein. I'm saying all the other scripture concerning the resurrections, and who is involved and when, in relation to other events, must be taken into account together, as a whole. All the evidence must merge into the truth.

In isolation Dan 12 certainly seems to point to the conclusion you present. There's much more about the 1st and 2nd resurrection that must be considered.

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

 

The events of Daniel are not repeated twice. Michael stands up once...there is a time of trouble once...Israel is delivered once...

There is no other two. The events stated in Dan. 12:1 happen one time. 

 

Its not only arguing from silence, it is in direct contradiction to what is said...The angel would be absolutely wrong to tell Daniel these things would all be finished at the end of the 3. 5 year reign of the beast if in fact only the resurrection of the righteous would happen at that time. 

The second death does not have power over those in the first resurrection. The problem lies in thinking the first resurrection must mean WE are resurrected before the wicked. If this was the true understanding, then there would be no illustration of the wheat and tares being harvested at the same time. If this was the true understanding, we would not have everyone in the graves hearing his voice and coming forth. Of course anyone can say 'it does not say his voice was not heard twice...' but this is adding to scripture...it does not say 'the righteous shall hear his voice and come forth, and then later the wicked will hear his voice and come forth..' 

I Cor 15

"

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,g then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”h

55“Where, O Death, is your victory?

Where, O Death, is your sting?”i

56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

This speaks to the immortality through victory in Christ. Not the dead resurrected to eternal death. Similarly,

1 Thess 4

"15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Only those in Christ are raised from the dead. We would have to add the wicked dead being raised at the moment of the 2nd coming. 

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

If this was the true understanding, the angel would not have told Daniel all these things would be finished at the end of the reign of the beast.

That's not what the angel said.

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

If this was the true understanding we would not have Jesus say when he comes that he would reward every man according as his works shall be. 

It's an assumption this will be the same day. It's 'in that day' not 'on that day'. L

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

If this was the true understanding we would not have Jesus saying when he comes that every eye would see him, even those who pierced him.

If this was the true understanding we would not have Caiphas seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. 

I will need a direct statement that says the wicked dead are raised before the dead in Christ. I don't see one. And there are other explanations for the above truths. 

On 5/13/2022 at 8:09 AM, transmogrified said:

 

The problem lies in thinking we must be chronologically resurrected before the wicked to be in the first resurrection...No. Jesus was the first to be raised chronologically....It was not that Jesus was resurrected before any wicked or that he was resurrected before any of the righteous...no,

he was resurrected before ANYONE had ever been resurrected.

We are in the first resurrection because we died in him, not because we are resurrected before the wicked. 

 

The bold above is false. The dead were raised in the OT and Jesus Himself raised the dead during His ministry and:

"50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit.

 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

The earth quaked and the rocks were split.

 52The tombs broke open,

and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised."

So upon the death of Jesus the tombs were opened and the saints rose. On His death.

"53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people"

Now was it the leaving of the tombs that came after the resurrection or was it the entering the city and appearing to people that was after the resurrection? 

In any case there were many who were resurrected prior to the Resurrection of Jesus. 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is not a question that was ever brought up. The one thing it does say is 'when my people of Israel are dwelling safely shalt thou not know it?' 

 

Not only the believers from the past 2000 years, but all saints from the time of Adam to the Second Coming.

 

I'm not sure how something like that would be hard to reconcile. There are rulers over different lands in many places...

 

It doesn't say Satan entered into him, but it says he goes out to deceive the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog. From Ezekiel 39 it says:

"...set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him. And say, Thus saith the Lord God; behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal....and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army....handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them all of them with shield and helmet ...Gomer and all his bands ...Togarmah and many people with thee....

Gog is not the only one who gets deceived by the devil..all the people are deceived as well...so the deception is by the power of Satan...just like the beast before the Second Coming...the dragon gave him his power and seat and great authority, and all whose names were not written in the book of life worshipped him. Like Jesus said at his trial...'This is your hour and the power of darkness...' 

No he would not reign over the saints in the first resurrection..this group is called 'the camp of the saints.' Those in the first resurrection are in immortal bodies and can never die...the fire comes down out of heaven and destroys those that come against the saints. There are those who are in immortal bodies who are in the first resurrection and they reign over the nations who are still in mortal bodies that will live and die during that time. These are the ones who the devil deceives at the end of the 1000 years...

The saints which are in the land of Israel are called Israel by God. 

https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/38-14.htm

And that is what I said. The first resurection is Israel, and Israel shall dwell in Israel for that 1000 years. 

Im just not seeing where it says they are Ethiopian, Persians, and Americans anywhere. 

The word goes on to say that God made the people of Israel go into exile for thier sin, then HE GATHERED THEM BACK INTO THIER OWN LAND. He continually calls the people living in Israel at that time Israel. 

https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/39-28.htm

In Ezekiel 37 israel is resurrected. That is the first resurection. Then Gog invades Israel in Ezekiel 38.

And as for the question Does Gog not know Israel is safe? 

Apparently not. Apparently Gog does not know israel is protected by God. Apparently Gog does not even know the people in Israel are immortal beings when he invades thier land. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

11 hours ago, transmogrified said:

It is not a question that was ever brought up. The one thing it does say is 'when my people of Israel are dwelling safely shalt thou not know it?' 

 

 

You know, I bet 1000 years after the first resurection, Gogs history books he's been reading doesn't say there was a resurrection that took place at the time of the great war in israel 1000 years before. I bet Gog does not know about the resurection of Israel. 

Its possible that the war of Armegeddon takes place destroying about all the middle east and no one in Persia of Ethiopia or Magog even realize a resurection happened. 

That would be hilarious. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

And that is what I said. The first resurection is Israel, and Israel shall dwell in Israel for that 1000 years. 

The resurrection in Daniel 12 for both the just and the unjust happens at the Second Coming. Daniel asked, 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders.' The angel answered it would be for a time, times and a half and when the beast has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people 'all these things will be finished.'

So the 3.5 year reign of the beast ends when Jesus returns and destroys him. But when Jesus returns it says he will return and ALL the saints will be with him.

Zech. 14:5

Quote

yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Quote

 1 Thess. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

 

All the saints does not mean just those of Israel...as Paul said

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Here is the description of those who will return with Jesus at the 7th Trumpet which is the time the Second Coming happens:

Rev. 11:18  

"... and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So who does it say?

1) Thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear thy name both small and great...

There were saints in the old testament and there were saints in the New Testament...there were prophets in the Old Testament and in the New Testament...those that feared his name were in both the Old and new Testament.

In other words, ALL the saints that return with Jesus are not just the saints of Israel's physical lineage...it includes both Jew and Gentile...so the saints of Israel are not the only ones in the first resurrection...

Here is another description of those who Jesus will raise on the last day in John 6

1) All those who God has given to Christ...(God gave all the saints to Jesus)

2) Whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood..(New Testament saints)

3) Those who God has drawn to Christ.....(No one comes to Jesus unless the spirit of God draws him)

4) Whoever sees the Son and believes on him...(There were Jews who saw Jesus and believed on him, and there were Gentiles who saw Jesus and believed on him)

Jesus said all these listed would be raised on the last day...not one resurrection for Israel and another resurrection for Jews. This is the first resurrection on whom the second death has no power, and it is these who reign with him 1000 years...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[Shilohsfoal]

4 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The resurrection in Daniel 12 for both the just and the unjust happens at the Second Coming. Daniel asked, 'How long shall it be to the end of these wonders.' The angel answered it would be for a time, times and a half and when the beast has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people 'all these things will be finished.'

So the 3.5 year reign of the beast ends when Jesus returns and destroys him. But when Jesus returns it says he will return and ALL the saints will be with him.

Zech. 14:5

 

All the saints does not mean just those of Israel...as Paul said

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Here is the description of those who will return with Jesus at the 7th Trumpet which is the time the Second Coming happens:

Rev. 11:18  

"... and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So who does it say?

1) Thy servants the prophets...

2) The saints...

3) Them that fear thy name both small and great...

There were saints in the old testament and there were saints in the New Testament...there were prophets in the Old Testament and in the New Testament...those that feared his name were in both the Old and new Testament.

In other words, ALL the saints that return with Jesus are not just the saints of Israel's physical lineage...it includes both Jew and Gentile...so the saints of Israel are not the only ones in the first resurrection...

Here is another description of those who Jesus will raise on the last day in John 6

1) All those who God has given to Christ...(God gave all the saints to Jesus)

2) Whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood..(New Testament saints)

3) Those who God has drawn to Christ.....(No one comes to Jesus unless the spirit of God draws him)

4) Whoever sees the Son and believes on him...(There were Jews who saw Jesus and believed on him, and there were Gentiles who saw Jesus and believed on him)

Jesus said all these listed would be raised on the last day...not one resurrection for Israel and another resurrection for Jews. This is the first resurrection on whom the second death has no power, and it is these who reign with him 1000 years...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

The last day? 

When is the last day? 

Would the last day be at the end of the world when Gog invades Israel or is the last day 1000 years before the end of the world? 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[transmogrified]

13 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Would the last day be at the end of the world when Gog invades Israel or is the last day 1000 years before the end of the world? 

The last day is the last day of this age, not the end of the 1000 years. Jesus resurrects all the saints at the Second Coming...then all these saints returns with Jesus to reign with him  on the earth for the 1000 years.

It is described in Matthew 13 that both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...and the harvest is specifically said to be the end of THIS age...not the end of the next age.

So the wheat are gathered into the barn and the tares are cast into the fire..all at the end of this age. As it shows in the sheep and goat analogy, both groups are before the Lord and both groups are rewarded...The sheep enter into the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world...(the 1000 year reign begins) and the goats are cast into the fire.

The good and bad fish analogy also confirms this...the net is let down one time (at the Second Coming) and it gathers both good and bad fish, then it is drawn to shore and the good are kept and bad are cast away...(sheep and goat judgment)

But in order for the wheat and the sheep and the good fish to be present before the Lord, they must first all be resurrected. This happens on the last day...the last day of this age is the dividing line between the end of this age and the beginning of the age to come.