Catholicism vs Christianity

[Sower]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

But it always seems to turn into a rant against ROMAN Catholicism.

Your post proves my point, Anne. God is Light (The Light, not man)

What you call rant I call light.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"            One mediator, the man Christ Jesus, and not a sinful man.

My purpose in posting biblical truth vs catholic dogma is NOT to create disunity among believers. But to expose false doctrine as believers are commanded. I was hoping in my post that the light of the gospel, God's good news, would expose any darkness( false data/learning) in the minds of those who faithfully have followed (like lambs to the slaughter) the catholic teachings without ever consulting what the bible really says. Besides yourself, there has been over four thousand viewers/seekers watching-listening-learning what has been posted on this one thread-OP. You must understand that, and consider just how sure of yourself you are, and myself, as we will be held accountable before God someday. I want to post with as much grace as possible towards you that you would allow at least some consideration (light) to what I am trying to show you. But I will not compromise the gospel, the truth, of God.

All believers sin. Believers confess their sins to God, as scripture says.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight"
Psalm 51:4

I was born into the RCC and lived it for thirty years till I heard a faithful old believer say to me one day I must be born again. Never heard that in RCC. This seed (like the ones I try planting here on this forum) fell on good soil, and I welcomed the light,  grew and bloomed, a child(of God) was born. I could have been blinded but the word was sharp enough to penetrate the darkness of my mind.

I know what it is like being a catholic in a world of protestants, trying to defend the Roman catholic beliefs/traditions. The more faithful, the longer within the church dogma, the more difficult for truth to be allowed within the darkness, as they are  blinded, as the scriptures say, by the god of this world. It takes the soil, yourself, myself, anyone, to decide to allow the light, with the holy spirit, to come in, with truth. I love all catholics, as my relatives and friends are catholics, and I love them enough to loose their fellowship in order to share the gospel.
I post this primarily to any viewers or seekers reading, wanting truth.
God would that none perish.

 

 

 

 

[Willa]

5 hours ago, Sower said:

For Catholics, a Door to Absolution Is Reopened

By Paul Vitello

Thank you for taking the time to post this.  I was unaware.  It is heartbreaking that the Roman church has taken one step forward and two steps back into a man made dead religion rather than a Christ centered, Bible centered living faith.

 Some Protestant churches have also rejected the Bible as their sole source of doctrine but include tradition and human reasoning as sources of doctrine.  They also are on their way to becoming dead religions.  Others have made preaching a means of getting rich.  All such errors should be rejected and avoided. 

I have known many Roman Catholics who love Jesus, read and love their Bibles and walk with God in spite of the errors in their denomination.

 

Most people don't read or understand the Bible.  They should pray and ask God to help them to understand it.  I once found a small medal of the descending dove, the Holy Spirit, that had this printed on the back: "Come Holy Spirit, enlighten me".  AMEN!

1Co 2:10  these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.  1Co 2:11  For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:12  Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.  1Co 2:13  And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

1Co 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Greatest divide between Christianity and Catholicism is The Council of Trent where the Bishops Took The Gospel in Scripture and called it Anthema (damnations, damning to hell): 

“SESSION THE SIXTH,

Celebrated on the thirteenth day of the month of January, 1547.

DECREE CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION.

Council of Trent

-Canon XV. If any one shall say, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinated; let him be anathema.

Jesus assures us we are predestined, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”  (John 10:26-30) Paul affirms we are predestined too, “Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,” (Ephesians 1:4-5), “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30). 

-Canon XVI. If any one shall say, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, unless that he have learnt this by a special revelation; let him be anathema.

I again refer to Jesus words and Paul’s that assure us eternal security and perseverance (John 10:26-30, Romans 10:9-10) 

—Canon XXIII. If any one shall say, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, throughout his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial, except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds respecting the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

You can’t lose grace, its unmerited favor of God as decided by Council of Jerusalem by The Apostles Peter, Paul, James and Others (Acts 15:1-11), and “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephensians 2:8-9)

-Canon XXIX. If any one shall say, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice lost, but by faith alone, without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church, instructed by Christ and his apostles, has hitherto professed, observed and taught; let him be anathema.

The Sacrament of Penance is Congreous Merit that a person does for their sins, but Christ died for all sins for all time, “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all,” (Hebrews 10:10), “For then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him,” (Hebrews 9:26-28), “He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption”, (Hebrews 9:12). 

-Canon IX. If any one shall say, that by faith alone the impious is justified; so as to mean that nothing else is required to co-operate in order unto the obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is not in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Scriptural Rebuttal: 

“become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.” (Philippians 3:9) 

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephensians 2:8-9)

“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” (Hebrews 10:12) 

-Canon XI. If any one shall say, that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the righteousness of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Ghost and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, by which we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him he anathema.

“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

“whom God jput forward as propitiation lby his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over nformer sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:25-26)

“But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,” (Hebrews 10:12) 

—Canon XII. If any one shall say, that justifying faith is nought else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified; let him be anathema.

Scriptural Rebuttal: 

“He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13-14) 

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:1-2) 

“whom God jput forward as propitiation lby his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over nformer sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” (Romans 3:25-26)

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8:1) 

“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this Man (Jesus Christ) forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:38-39) 

“In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,” (Ephesians 1:7) 

“Because of Christ and our faith in him, we can now come boldly and confidently into God’s presence,” (Ephensians 3:12) “Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need,” (Hebrews 4:16) 

—Canon XXX. If any one shall say, that, after the grace of justification received, unto every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted, and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out, that there remains not any penalty of temporal punishment, to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be laid open; let him be anathema.

Purgatory doesn’t exist, we live and when we die we are judged, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27), and we are judged solely on this, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:16-18). 

The Council of Trent is still in effect, and laid into official decree Catholic beliefs long held, and still held, thus it cannot be reformed or discarded by the RCC or else call into question their long held doctrines.  Ths Council of Trent condemns the true gospel in Scripture according to apostle’s teaching. Which means the Catholic Church is not Christ’s Church, and is accursed for preaching a different gospel, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8-9)

Trent rends us Protestants and Catholics asunder forever. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Fidei Defensor

[Anne2]

Do the Anglican teach this?

I am attempting to speak to a priesthood as scripture speaks to it. Both in the law for a pattern and shadow, and its operation in the Church. You are bringing all kinds of other things into this. Penance = repentance. Have you repented since you came to Christ?

one sacrifice for all, and all time. So, how does he operate as a priest continually?

Boldly entering the throne of grace? So, you HAVE boldly entered the throne of grace once for all time and just stay there? Or does scripture speak of entering there at TIMES of need?

 Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

These conversations remind me of disputes concerning the doctrine of the trinity. That doctrine was never intended or formulated for our human mind and understanding to completely understand God's nature. Our minds cannot do that. Yet those that reject the doctrine always argue against it by applying human understanding to it's terms.

The same is done in this discussion IMO.

So let's apply that standard to your own priesthood you claim.

Do Christians enter into the throne room and receive God's grace through Christs blood, and stay there? Or do we have times of need to enter there. So it does not appear we merely enter in and stay there. Nor does it appear that once we have gone in to receive mercy and grace, that we never have need for it again. That is not what scripture paints of a priesthood.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Anne2

[Fidei Defensor]

4 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Do the Anglican teach this?

I am attempting to speak to a priesthood as scripture speaks to it. Both in the law for a pattern and shadow, and its operation in the Church. You are bringing all kinds of other things into this. Penance = repentance. Have you repented since you came to Christ?

one sacrifice for all, and all time. So, how does he operate as a priest continually?

Boldly entering the throne of grace? So, you HAVE boldly entered the throne of grace once for all time and just stay there? Or does scripture speak of entering there at TIMES of need?

 Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

These conversations remind me of disputes concerning the doctrine of the trinity. That doctrine was never intended or formulated for our human mind and understanding to completely understand God's nature. Our minds cannot do that. Yet those that reject the doctrine always argue against it by applying human understanding to it's terms.

The same is done in this discussion IMO.

So let's apply that standard to your own priesthood you claim.

Do Christians enter into the throne room and receive God's grace through Christs blood, and stay there? Or do we have times of need to enter there. So it does not appear we merely enter in and stay there. Nor does it appear that once we have gone in to receive mercy and grace, that we never have need for it again. That is not what scripture paints of a priesthood.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory,” (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Yes we are In state of Grace always:

“But he said to me, “And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work,” (2 Corinthians 9:8), 

“And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.” (John 1:16)

“But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.” (1 Corinthians 15:10)

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” (2 Corinthians 12:9)

“But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” (Romans 5:15)

“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.” (Titus 2:11). 
 

We don’t have to keep going to get grace over and over, we got it when we first believed in Jesus. For grace means unmerited favor and is a free gift (Romans 5:15) deposited to us forever. The Apostle Peter said, “But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” (Acts 15:12)

Now to settle it we are in Grace and Christ tells us He will never let us go:

The Words of Jesus Christ:

“My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of my hand, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are One.” (John 10:26-30)

[Marathoner]

There's the matter of the Roman Catholic veneration of "holy relics" to consider, which brings to mind a joke I heard many years ago. I'll employ artistic license to make it brief. 

A fellow stood in front of the huge cathedral downtown. "I wonder what this place is all about? Let's go inside and take a look!"

The guy goes inside and notices a large glass case prominently displayed. Inside are two skulls: a large skull and a much smaller skull. The Monsignor notices the man gazing upon the display and so he approaches.

"Welcome, my son. Might I be of assistance?"

The man looked at the Monsignor with a puzzled expression. "I reckon so. What on earth is that?," pointing at the large skull.

The Monsignor smiled. "That is the skull of John the Baptist."

The man grimaced. Pointing at the small skull, he asked, "Okay... so what is that?"

The Monsignor replied, "That's the skull of John the Baptist when he was a child."

[Sower]

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I am attempting to speak to a priesthood as scripture speaks to it. Both in the law for a pattern and shadow, and its operation in the Church. You are bringing all kinds of other things into this.

Have no idea what that means, or just what you trying to say, Anne, so I can not reply to it.

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Penance = repentance. Have you repented since you came to Christ?

Actually, Anne,  I had to repent=(change my thinking) in order to come to Christ.

Penance, as a catholic understands, is not repentance.

Penance;  voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.
An example of penance is when you say ten Hail Marys to earn forgiveness.

(I have prayed thousands of them, confessed/received the priest's forgiveness, then went out to sin again)  Nothing changed. Wasn't connected to God yet. But I believed I was OK based upon what I was taught in the RCC...

Penance An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing.

“Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams”  1 Sam. 15:22

God does not want us hurting/inflicting pain to ourselves when we commit sin, but we are to confess our sins to God. As believers, all our sins have been forgiven. PERIOD. We don't try to prove to God how serious we are, how "penitent"we are, about our sins. He prefers us to simply obey Him. Agree with Him we have sinned. This acknowledgement to God also is planted within our own minds, as light,to help (remember/program)the next time the temptation comes to mind. Confession of sin restores fellowship with my creator/Savior. Yes.

repentance, a change of thinking leading to a change of action, obedience.
It includes turning away from sin (not just feeling sorry/penitent)and turning to God for forgiveness. Not saying a hail Mary to earn forgiveness. We cannot earn forgiveness. Jesus Christ paid it all with His blood. Saying a hail Mary is a false doctrine, as those who believe in the atonement know it is the blood of Jesus that covers our sins, and not His mother. (Our God is a jealous God) Yes.

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

These conversations remind me of disputes concerning the doctrine of the trinity. That doctrine was never intended or formulated for our human mind and understanding to completely understand God's nature. Our minds cannot do that. Yet those that reject the doctrine always argue against it by applying human understanding to it's terms.

The same is done in this discussion IMO.

Anne, I can see you do not reply to any of what I try to show you in scripture as relates to this discussion. Bringing up the trinity debate shows me you are here to defend only your beliefs. I'm here to learn and encourage others to also, starting with allowing the holy spirit to teach us. I do not understand everything in scriptures, but my many years in the RCC helps me recognize false dogma (doctrine) from the truth I have learned as a born again believer.

8 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Do Christians enter into the throne room and receive God's grace through Christs blood, and stay there? Or do we have times of need to enter there. So it does not appear we merely enter in and stay there. Nor does it appear that once we have gone in to receive mercy and grace, that we never have need for it again. That is not what scripture paints of a priesthood.

Again, I have no idea of what your point is in your statements above. I'm not against you Anne, but for you. Just trying to help you see what the scripture say. I don't think at this time you are willing to consider that man's traditions are flawed within the Vatican/catholic traditions as much as you presently know. I have been there also, but once the holy spirit brought light into my mind, I couldn't get enough of it. I have much empathy for all catholics. Understand that please.

[believeinHim]

The only, {And this is the literal only thing I understand about the differences}, Is that in Orthodox Christianity, It has the least removed of all of the Bible chapters. It contains all of the Apocalyptic, And Apocraphyl texts, 

The Catholic Bible has some more removed,

And the Protestant has them all removed. The Protestant Bibles do not have any of the Apocraphyl texts in them at all. 

I do not know if this, is, {Accurate}, As to why would Theologians and scholars have the {go~ahead}, Or, {Right}, Or, Why would a theologian and printers and writers of the original Bible have the Authority to remove Apocryphal texts that were originally apart of the Bible. Is this not making them Priest~like~to~begin~with ?
 

For a scholar to remove a book from the Bible and claim and call it, {"Contradictory"}, This then puts the writers and publishers of the Bible in a Priest~like~Authority, It would seem to me...............................,,,,,,,,,,,,, I have started to wonder why they were not just left in there for the reader, And the Church~Goer to come to their own conclusion................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I have started to wonder why they were not left in there for the reader, or for the church~goer to come to their own conclusion...............,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 

____________________________________________________________

So, Aside from this making every publishers of the Bible, Priest~Like~in~and~of~Themselves, I KNOW, That there are Several, Differences, Between all of this. And yes, You are correct on a few of these. Blessings................................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Anne2]

18 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

We don’t have to keep going to get grace over and over, we got it when we first believed in Jesus. For grace means unmerited favor and is a free gift (Romans 5:15) deposited to us forever. The Apostle Peter said, “But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” (Acts 15:12)

So When you sin is your forgiveness for that sin by grace or not? IMO, it is not enough to just point out why you don't accept another. I am asking you about how your priesthood is correct. 

So you enter in to the throne room of Grace by the blood of Jesus Christ. It is by his blood you even enter there. What about when you sin? You also describe everyone as their own priest. How is that a priesthood? How does that operate within the body of Christ?  If you remain in a constant state of Grace how or why is there anymore a need to repent?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Anne2

[Fidei Defensor]

A really a good book to read is “Are We Together?” By R.C. Sproul. He lets you read the Catholic texts & Councils and read Scripture beside them.