The "Great Multitude" and "Great Tribulation" of Revelation 7:9-17

[not an echo]

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

 

The well known phrase, "The Seven Year Tribulation Period" is also commonly referred to as "The Great Tribulation."  Some use this phrase in reference to the whole seven years of this period, some, in reference to only the last 3-1/2 years.  Note that the "the" preceding the words "great tribulation" is not found in the King James Version (KJV ) of Revelation 7:14 as it is in the later translations.  We will be looking at all of this further, but for now, it just needs to be acknowledged that there is a lot of difference between "great tribulation" and what has come to be called "THE Great Tribulation."

It's neither 7 years nor 3.5 years. It's a time immediately following the A of D truncated by the return of Jesus to mete out long awaited wrath, prior to the end of the last 7 years. This glaring mistake by nearly everyone has thrown long shadows across the truth of the end of the age, the final 7 years, GT and the return of Jesus.

Hello Diaste,

I don't know where you are coming from with your opening sentence---I don't think I've ever heard you say this.  I mean, in your next sentence, you acknowledge "the last 7 years" and in your last sentence, "the final 7 years".  Am I missing something, maybe relating to your take on "those days" being "shortened"?  Of your second sentence, if I am understanding you correctly, it seems that you are indicating that Daniel's 70th Week will continue beyond Christ's Second Advent.  Is this what you are saying?

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

While my position is that the Church will not be subjected to any of the great tribulation of Daniel's 70th Week, is there any evidence in Scripture that it will not be subjected to great tribulation?  To the contrary, the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did, and the evidence of history is that such has been the case throughout the era of the Church.  How much greater would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be regarded as great tribulation?  In our country, the Church may not presently be subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), but such is and has been the case with the Church from a worldwide perspective since the days of the apostles.

The mistake here is that this particular GT only occurs after the A of D. As Jesus said, "

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

Not only is this GT after the A of D it is also a never before and never again. It will outstrip the horrors of the Inquisition where thousands of believers in Jesus Christ were tortured and murdered, enslaved, imprisoned, sold and humiliated. The GT will surpass the Islamic conquests from 700-1400 AD; a time where estimates of upwards of 275 million were also killed, enslaved and/or imprisoned; many millions of which were Christians. 

One could say the Islamic conquest was GT. But then came the Inquisition in the 12th century, which didn't end until the 19th century. If you weren't Catholic you could be humiliated, imprisoned, tortured or executed. One could say the Islamic conquests that targeted infidels[any non Muslim] was the GT. But there was no A of D as no Temple existed from 700-1400 AD for there to be an A of D.

So even if these dark times could be likened to GT there was no A of D to signal the GT's beginning, and there must be one per Jesus words,

"when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation...at that time there will be great tribulation"

GT is not 2000 years long.

To clarify, a difference in our positions is what you highlight, versus what I would highlight.  Concerning the great tribulation Jesus is speaking of, my position is established by simply highlighting the portion where He says this:  "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

Of course, there is coming a time when things are going to get much worse, especially with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then, even more so, when the A of D---the Jew's supposed Messiah---bears his fangs.  In strict accord with Jesus words, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).

Your last statement is, "GT is not 2000 years long."  Perhaps this will help you to better understand my position.  Christians the world over have experienced great tribulation!  They always have and they are even now!  I would venture that you and every single member of the Worthy Forum family has experienced great tribulation!  But, there is coming a time when it will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to [that] time, no, nor ever shall be."  When you understand my position, you will understand that your last statement misses my point.  It seems to me that for you, "GT" is synonymous with Daniel's 70th Week.  For me, this understanding clouds the understanding of our discussions.  For me, what you are saying is like, "Daniel's 70th Week is not 2000 years long."  We both know that this is not what you are saying.  I'm just saying. 

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:  From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of those who are a part of Christ's Church when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while the Church has experienced great tribulation, it will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.  If the great multitude in Revelation 7:14 is indeed the Church, this is why it is seen in Heaven, just before the opening of the 7th Seal.  It is not until this last seal is opened (which can happen the same day) that things will begin to come together for Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, what is up ahead will be the time of Israel's trouble, referred to in Jeremiah 30:7 as "Jacob's Trouble."  This was never intended to be the time of the Church's trouble.  The Church will escape, or be delivered from this time.

To expand on the truths above what kind of GT should the Church escape? The Church didn't escape the Inquisition. That was pretty terrible. What about the 700 years of Islamic conquest? The Church was right in the middle of that. In fact if any time in the ancient past was deemed worthy for the Church to avoid it would have been 700 years of persecution where anyone who was not of the Islamic faith was executed, enslaved or taxed. But there was no rapture then. No A of D either. An A of D must occur immediately prior to the ensuing GT.

So unless there is an A of D there is no GT as described by Jesus at the Olivet Discourse.

So why didn't the Church escape what arguably was the very worst time in the last 2000 years for religious believers not of the Muslim/Islamic faith? 

We are so often focused through ethnocentrism and egocentrism that we in the white, western church seem to forget there is a whole world out there peopled with sincere, faithful, Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ. And it's a world where many of them died for their faith in the Savior and no rapture was there to save them. We just turn a blind eye to that because, hey, it's not us.

What do we say to the millions of followers of Jesus Christ who were tortured, killed, enslaved, had families destroyed, went to prison and died slow deaths? Where was their escape? It doesn't matter really. It won't keep pews shined, congregants enthralled at the latest fictional masterpiece, nor the local church organization flush with coin. 

It simply must be the rapture is only for mostly white American and European believers and we'll just ignore the rest.

What the Church will escape is the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment, which begins the day that the 6th Seal is opened.  The period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment includes Daniel's 70th Week, as I show on the following  chart:

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

In no way is this factual. No GT can occur before the A of D. Jesus said so.

Though I just spoke to this some, I thought of my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/), where I speak to it more.  Hope you will consider it afresh.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

While the preceding might cover the question before us to the satisfaction of some, for a fair treatment, we must focus further on that little "the" mentioned earlier.  This definite article is found preceding the words "great tribulation" in most of the translations published since the KJV.  A difference such as this is sometimes the result of the use of a different manuscript by the translators.  In the case of the "the" in question here, the manuscripts upon which other translations are based show this article, as does the Textus Receptus, upon which the KJV is based.  Just why this "the" is not found in the KJV would be difficult to ascertain.  The work of interpretation and translation of languages is a very complex undertaking.  Whatever the reason, this might appear to be something that would affect the interpretation I put forth.  But, there is more to this passage than the "the".

In an effort to more fully address the above concerns, let's just concede the definite article for a moment.  Let's turn our attention to another portion of the verse in question as rendered by the translations that do include it.  For example, at least three modern day translations read thus:  "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation" (New International, Amplified, and Revised Standard versions).  Noting the words in bold, and using the reader as an example, what criteria would have to be met for it to be said that you have "come out of" something?  The most natural response might be that you would have to be in it to come out of it, but there are other factors.  Like, how long would you have to be in something before it could be truthfully said that you have come out of it?  Also, realize that you can come out of something in the sense of having gone through it, or you can come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  I'm really not trying to split hairs here.  I'm really just trying to get down to the nitty-gritty of what this passage can mean.  Will you help me?

When did the A of D happen? No A of D, no GT. 

Of your last statement, more correctly and more in tune with my position would be this:  No A of D, no Daniel's 70th Week.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

With this in mind, notice afresh the following two verses, which reflect your state:

The first is from what John gives an account of in Revelation chapter seven, just after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal:

  9   After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, AND BEFORE THE LAMB, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The second is from Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, in Luke 21:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

And, what is it that Jesus is saying can be escaped? 

If you did the due diligence you'd know. The above reference is to a personal flight, not harpazo.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are not factoring in the parallel portions of the other accounts of Jesus' discourse relating to the above and the truth(s) they help to establish.  I focus upon this more in the opening post of my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/).

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

 

This is reflected in the same chapter (and context) of Luke's account, beginning 11 verses prior:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

What Luke here records of Jesus' words is like a paraphrase of what John writes concerning the 6th Seal.  With all the foregoing in mind, I now invite you to turn in your Bible and read again John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and of the great multitude he beheld in the very next chapter (Rev. 7:9-17).  Then, conclude for yourself how the Spirit and these scriptures speak to you.

I hope I have demonstrated fairly that there is more than one way to interpret the words "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14. 

Do you mean like the following example of more than one way to interpret?

The Woman speaks the truth below,

The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You must not eat of it or touch it, or you will die.’ ”

Satan has a 'more than one way to interpret' idea.

4“You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

I know...shocking, isn't it?

I'm not sure if you are really agreeing with me, or just trying to get a little dig in on me (friendly of course!) because my position is different than yours.  When it comes to prophecy and differences in what is being believed, there is much, much that factors in.  In the garden, there was the one sentence that God spoke (Gen. 2:16-17/two verses) and then there was the one sentence that Satan spoke (Gen. 3:4-5/two verses).  It is evident, it is glaring, that the bottom line of Satan's words were just the opposite of God's Word.  God had said, "thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17).  Satan said, "Ye shall not surely die" (Gen. 3:4)---and then he added his spin on things.  Eve, if she had any question marks going off in her head, should have checked in with God further.  That's what we should do too.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

My experience has been that every Scripture upon which a belief or doctrine might turn can be interpreted at least two ways---one right, one wrong.  Satan will see to that. 

How interesting!

Yes it is.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

 

  Concerning the question before us, an interpretation has been submitted with regard to the words "great tribulation" and also with regard to the words "the great tribulation."  In consideration of other scriptural evidences, this means the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation 7:14 is either what the Church has so long been through or what the Church will have just escaped from.  Interestingly, either of these interpretations will support that the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is the just resurrected and raptured Church.  Also, either harmonizes with the rest of the body of the scriptures.  Paul spoke against striving about words "to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  It is hoped that our having here strived about some words will be found to be of great profit.

A false interpretation. But sure, an interpretation. Like the one in Gen 3:4

Now I'm sure of it!!!  You were trying to get a little dig in on me (friendly of course!) because my position is different than yours.

Like I've said fairly recently somewhere else, such is an easy thing to say, but I don't know where it really gets us.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:38 PM, Diaste said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

Finally, while we have considered some very important things concerning the opening of the 6th Seal, to this point in our discussion, that mysterious Seven Sealed Book remains unopened.  The last seal is still intact.  But the resurrection and the rapture of the Church has occurred.  To those who believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week gathering of the Church, just know this:  We who are a part of Christ's Church will be safely with Him on yonder shore before He opens the 7th Seal.  Further, within the bounds that Scripture affords, this last, or 7th Seal can be opened the same day the rapture occurs.  This helps to show that every seal on the outside of THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK relates entirely to the era of the Church---all seven seals.  And, every page on the inside of this book relates entirely to the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week  and everything else this side of eternity---every single page.

Sooo....the seals are opened, the book is read...but the book remains unopened? Is this some metaphysical thing like the sound of one hand clapping?

I don't know where you are coming from here---it seems bizarre.  My position has always been that when the seals are opened, then the book will be opened---but only then.  Are you meaning what you say in the sense that each time a seal is opened, a portion of the book can be read?  We have had discussions about this relating to a scroll, but I don't know if we've had such a discussion relating to a book.  If you are meaning like, the 1st Seal is removed and a portion of the book is read, that is fine with me---as long as it is accepted that what is read is limited to what is there to read (Rev. 6:1-2).  Same with the 2nd Seal (Rev. 6:3-4).  Same with the 3rd through the 5th.  Now, we have more to read with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17)!  And, when the 7th Seal is opened (Rev. 8:1), we have the remainder of what is contained in the Seven Sealed Book (Rev. 8:2-20:15)!  Of Revelation 21-22, I would put this as that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved.  Are you meaning like this?  Whatever the case, there's nothing about this that will affect my position either.

[Revelation Man]

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your reply as a whole, do you believe (as I do) that what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 concerns the time of the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal?  Said another way, do you see Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 as being like prophetic puzzle pieces that fit with the prophetic puzzle pieces of the 6th Seal?  My position concerning the rapture is pre-Daniel's 70th Week as well---just not in accord with the common understanding.

No sir, Matt. 24:29-31 is the Second Coming, all of he Trumpet Judgments, even the 7th Trumpet Judgment which is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials, have all passed, except maybe the 7th Vial which is Jesus slaying the Beast, his Armies and all of those who have gathered at the 6th Vial to come against God's people Israel at Armageddon.

The 6th Seal is not even an ACTIONABLE Judgment, its a Prophetic Foretelling of what is just around the corner, you see the Judgment starts at the 1260 middle of the week it is God's Wrath (the Apophis Asteroid is when it begins IMHO), but Seal #6 is Jesus Prophesying that it is about to fall upon mankind, he is doing this in Heaven, amongst the Raptured Church in Rev. 5 and 6. Then in Rev. 7 we see the Jews who have repented Fleeing Judea at the 1290 event (AoD) which happens 30 days BEFORE the 1260 Wrath, which is when the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth conquering. Only at the 7th Seal do we see Judgment, that's why its over in Rev. 8 with the Trumpets, that's why it comes AFTER Rev. 7 the Jews have 30 days to flee Judea !! Remember this Rev. 7 passage, Hurt not the Earth, Sea nor Trees UNTIL I have sealed the 144, 000 (or 3-5 million Jews have repented). And what hurts the Earth, Sea and Trees? The Rev. 8 Asteroid/Judgments burns 1/3 of the Trees, Impacts into the Ocean killing the Sea Creatures and of course it also hurts the Earth.

So, Seal #6 AND Joel 2:31 BOTH Prophesy about the same coming Event, the Sun and Moon going dark !! Yes, the Rapture is Pre Trib indeed, indeed.

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Consider again the opening three verses of The Revelation...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

I do DEEP DIVES on anything that seems contradictory, because God showed me a few years back that He is never contradictory ands that He never confuses us, so if it seems like a confounding verse, I need to DIG OUT His truths, this has led me to amazing revelations. So, what does the verse above mean? Well, Language changes, gay used to be happy etc. If you notice via my Greek study bible online, there are TWO WORDS behind the word SHORTLY. It is interpreted wrongly (not really......in 1600 Shortly meant a different thing in this context) in that it means in a SHORT TIME SPAN, Jesus will return, WATCH:

The Original 1611 KJV with links to Strong's.

Revuelation 1:1 ¶ The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

So, NOTICE the two words in the Greek that became one word, it is literally written by God, who never "Contradicts Himself".

1722 = Shortly

#1722 ἐν en {en} a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state),

5034 = Tachos

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os} from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) quickness, speed

—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.

—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

The word we get our English word Tachometer from is the Greek word "Tachos" thus it literally means Zoom, Zoom, Zoom, or Speedily, Quickly, IN HASTE, or in a short burst of time as in shortly they way the word was used in 1611;

So, as we see, in the Greek this is God saying at a FUTURE POINT IN TIME (EN), a time that even Jesus is not privy unto, God is saying He will send Jesus back and he will return pronto, in a flash, speedily,  in haste or (SMILE) Zoom, Zoom, Zoom.......or as the 1611 English used the word, shortly, which means in a short brief time as in hastily, or ZOOM.

It NEVER MEANT Jesus was returning SHORTLY, this is how people go down strange paths, we can not allow single verses to take us down wrong paths brother. (Here a little, there a little is the way to study, we then put it all together, Amen.) So, the word was TACHOS, and we are thinking SHORTLY. Look up the Greek words and do DEEP DIVES when it sems contradictory. 

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

2 Who bare record of the Word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

That simply means John was given the task of writing the book of Revelation, which God gave unto Jesus, thus Jesus gave it unto John in a set of revelations via Visions and Words. Thus he bared witness unto these things.

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

On the basis of the way The Revelation opens, which is foundational, Christians, even in John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for at least some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  What are your thoughts concerning what was "at hand" to begin to take place?

The TIME IS ALWAYS AT HAND, Jesus told his disciples to always be ready. We have had three periods of time, IMHO, from Adam to Noah, from Noah to Jesus Death/Resurrection and from that death 2000 some odd years ago unto now and Jesus' Second Coming soon to happen, Amen. So, we are living in that LAST PERIOD of time, the Church Age. God/Jesus also wants to keep the Church enthused, go win souls, change the world, I will return soon, God is eternal, the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, 2000 years is not a whole lot of generations to be honest. 

The Church Age which would change the world was at hand.

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

When John was given his invite to "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:10), with everything else that he saw, it should not be surprising to find that he also saw all those who had gone on before him---from Adam to whoever was the last to enter the Portals of Glory just before he got his invite. 

That is not how it goes down brother, that's a huge misnomer. John was being shown THE FUTURE, and of course he was also going to "marry the Lamb", so of course he's there like we will all be. 1 Cor. 15 tells us the Dead will not be raised until THE VERY END, just like those who are changed while living (which simply means they are changed from LIVING SOULS with human sin flesh unto Spirit Men........psstt........They/We Die, no sin flesh can enter heaven). The very verses tells us this, WATCH:

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Sin Flesh); it is raised in incorruption(Spirit Man):

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You would be surprised how much PUSH BACK I get on this when it tells us right here we are raised as SPIRIT BODIES, thus the whole "We are CHANGED" simply means WE SHED (Die) our Sin Flesh Bodies in order to go to heaven and marry the Lamb Jesus.

On down it states the Dead are raised at the SAME TIME as the Living are CHANGED, so that means no one is in heaven until God Judges everyone save maybe Elijah and Moses the Two-witnesses. All of these visions people see f loved ones are people seeing the Future like John was shown the future events in a vision.

The Jews were placed in Paradise (a holding place for souls), that's why Jesus told the thief he would be with him in Paradise that very day, Jesus was in the earth three days !! Not up in Heaven. Daniel was told he would stand in his lot at the very end, the Jews will be resurrected after the Second Coming, save for those marrying the Lamb like Paul, Peter or messianic Jews. The Jews married God long ago. Jacob had two brides. 

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

I'm taking it that you see the 24 elders as representing the Church---something that I know has long been put forth by the scholars holding to the common pre-trib view.  Also, I certainly agree with you that the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9 is the Church---something that has long been denied by the scholars holding to the common pre-trib view.  For now, how are you coming to your latter conclusion (which we share), with the evidence we have that John's seeing of this "great multitude" connects hard with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal?

They allow the word GREAT to take them down a wrong path, kind of like shortly does some. The evidence doesn't match up however, no one is taken to Heaven during the 70th week. If we miss the wedding call that door is SHUT unto us. We can still be saved, but most likely we will become Martyrs as Rev. 20:4 and the 5th Seal states.

As per the 6th Seal, that's a Prophesy, we see the Church in Rev. 4 and 5, then Jesus opens the Seals in their presence just before the Jews flee Judea at the 1290 AoD, just before God's Wrath falls at the 1260 Day of the Lord event. So, we see the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews fleeing Judea) then we get a FLASH LOOK up to Heaven where we see the Church in verses 7:9-17. Its that simple really. The 6th Seal is God's COMING WRATH, which falls with the Rev. 8 Judgment Trumpets.

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Scripturally, where do you get that the seals are opened "DURING the 70th week, not before"?  According to The Revelation, the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun are not seen until Revelation 11:1-3, during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  Just to clarify my position, it is the first 3-1/2 years that Revelation 11:3-14 concern.  This leaves the last 3-1/2 years, which 11:15-19:21 concern and happen during the period of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 12:6;  12:14;  13:5).

The book of Revelation is definitely not in Chronological Order, this throws many people off. Rev. 11 is merely the Two-witnesses chapter, Rev. 14 is merely The Harvest chapter, Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ chapter, Rev. 12 is merely the Israel fleeing chapter. 

EVERYTHING...........EVERYTHING is centered around the 1260 middle of the week event. Everything BEFORE this event and after the Rapture is the first half of the 70th week, thus Rev. 1 is merely Jesus speaking with John about the things he HAS SEEN (Jesus on earth, then Jesus on all of his resurrected glory) 

Now we move on to the "THINGS WHICH ARE", which of course was "The Church Age" in chapters 2 and 3. The number 10 means completion and 7 means "Divine Completion" so the 7 Churches represents the complete Church Age and the 10 days of tribulation Smyrna had means the Church would always have TROUBLES for the complete church age period. So, Rev. 2 and 3 are the Church Age Period, or the THINGS WHICH ARE.

Notice in Rev. 4:1 when John is called up he is SPECIFICALLY TOLD these are the things which "WILL BE HEREAFTER"

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me(LAST TRUMP = Jesus ENDS the Harvest); which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Notice, the things YOU HAVE SEEN (Jesus death and Resurrection) the things WHICH ARE (Church Age events on earth at THAT TIME) and the things which will be HEREAFTER (after the Church Age or Rapture, of course).

Rev. 11 actually starts BEFORE any Trumpets, because the coming Two-witnesses are THE BLESSING in Daniel ch. 12, the 1335. They show up 1335 days before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS Daniel was shown in Daniel. 11:36-45. In Dan. 12:8 Daniel asks the exact same question the angel does in  verse 6, HOW LONG until all these wonders end, thus Jesus (Man in Linen) answer as pertaining unto the 1290 and 1335 are the same as the answer to the 1260, EACH EVENT, is a specific number of days until Jesus' Second Coming ENDS ALL OF THESE WONDERS !!

1.) The Two-witnesses come first at the 1335 or 1335 days before the Jesus returns at the 2nd Coming.

2.) The False Prophet STOPS Jesus Worship and thus TAKES AWAY the Sacrifice, and then places an Image of the Beast or E.U. President in the temple and thus Jason's life under Antiochus comes to memory, he was a Jewish High Priest who bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest having his Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed, he then welcomed Antiochus into the temple of God to sacrifice a pig on the altar of God unto Zeus, he then MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, leading unto the famous Maccabean Revolt. So, 30 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem, the AoD is placed in the temple giving the Jews who repented a 30 day window to Flee Judea (Rev. 7) just begore God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 thus in Rev. 18:4 the Come out of her my children is God calling Israel to flee Judea. In Rev. 18:2 we see Babylon (Whole World) has become overrun by Demons, OF COURSE, Satan has been cast down and Apollyon and his hordes of demons released from the bottomless pit !! (Rev. is NOT IN ORDER) Its a series of events told in a certain order, then a series of events retold which happen at the exact same time as the other events

For example, Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age, then Rev. 4, 5, 6, and 7 are all in order,  they all happen BEFORE God's Wrath falls. The Seals are PROPHESIES of the coming 42 months of God's Wrath which we see in Seal # 6 and the Anti-Christs coming 42 month rule of terror on this earth as seen in Seal 1-5. Then we see the Jews fleeing Judea in Rev. 7.

Now comes the fun part, separating the REAL TIME EVENTS, vs. the Parenthetical Citation Chapters. 

Chapters 8, 9 15&16 are God's Judgment Chapters, Rev. 11 IS NOT a Judgment chapter, we see Woe #2 spoken of in passing BUT w see Woe # 2 and the judgments in Rev. 9, AND we are told the 3rd Woe comes quickly, but just like via Woe #2 the description is given elsewhere, as seen in Rev. 16, the 7 Vial ARE the 3rd Woe. Rev. 11 is simply the Two-witnesses Chapter, they show up 1335 dats before the Second Coming, thus if they live for 1260 days they MUST DIE BEFORE the Beast dies if I am correct (I am) and they do, they die at the 2nd Woe and the Beasts 1260 days comes to an end at the 7th Vial !! The first three verses simply gives us the Two-witnesses job description, they are to go unto the Jews ONLY, thus MEASURE only the Temple and THOSE (Jews) that are therein, do NOT MEASURE the Outer Court (Gentiles). 

So, we see the Judgment Chapters, then we get the Parenthetical Citation Chapters. Rev. 8, 12, 13, 17 and 18 ALL START at the exact same time, the 1260 Middle of the week. Rev. chapters 14 and 19 both cover the full 7 years because the Church is Raptured in a FLASHBACK in Rev. 14:14 (The Harvest Chapter that also shows the Wheat/Israel abs the Wicked in the Wine-press of Gods Wrath) Rev. 19 sees the Bride Marrying Jesus so that covers 7 years also, Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the 1260 middle of the week because the Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing.

The Woman is CHASED fir 1260 Days in Rev. 12. In Rev. 13 we know the Beast RULES for 126 days, see my point? In Rev. 12 we know the Harlot (ALL FLASE RELIGION) will be wiped out by this Anti-Christ who demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! So that happens also at the 1260 when he comes to power. Rev. 18 is God's 42 months of Wrath on the Whole World (Babylon). So, each chapter is a Parenthetical Citation chapter of events that happen  at the exact same time as Judgments of God. 

God Bless, I know its a complex book, but if I know one thing in all of life, this is it. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Revelation Man

[not an echo]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:52 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your reply as a whole, do you believe (as I do) that what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 concerns the time of the Lamb's opening of the 6th Seal?  Said another way, do you see Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31 as being like prophetic puzzle pieces that fit with the prophetic puzzle pieces of the 6th Seal?  My position concerning the rapture is pre-Daniel's 70th Week as well---just not in accord with the common understanding.

No sir, Matt. 24:29-41 is the Second Coming, all of he Trumpet Judgments, even the 7th Trumpet Judgment which is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials, have all passed, except maybe the 7th Vial which is Jesus slaying the Beast, his Armies and all of those who have gathered at the 6th Vial to come against God's people Israel at Armageddon.

Hello Revelation Man,

I've read your reply a couple of times.  I appreciate you taking the time you took to share your thoughts.

Concerning your opening sentence, I'm wondering if you differentiate any between the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) and Christ's Second Advent?

On 9/30/2022 at 12:52 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Consider again the opening three verses of The Revelation...

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

I do DEEP DIVES on anything that seems contradictory, because God showed me a few years back that He is never contradictory ands that He never confuses us, so if it seems like a confounding verse, I need to DIG OUT His truths, this has led me to amazing revelations. So, what does the verse above mean? Well, Language changes, gay used to be happy etc. If you notice via my Greek study bible online, there are TWO WORDS behind the word SHORTLY. It is interpreted wrongly (not really......in 1600 Shortly meant a different thing in this context) in that it means in a SHORT TIME SPAN, Jesus will return, WATCH:

What is it that you feel "seems contradictory" or "confounding" about the opening three verses of The Revelation?

On 9/30/2022 at 12:52 PM, Revelation Man said:

On 9/29/2022 at 5:37 PM, not an echo said:

Scripturally, where do you get that the seals are opened "DURING the 70th week, not before"?  According to The Revelation, the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun are not seen until Revelation 11:1-3, during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  Just to clarify my position, it is the first 3-1/2 years that Revelation 11:3-14 concern.  This leaves the last 3-1/2 years, which 11:15-19:21 concern and happen during the period of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 12:6;  12:14;  13:5).

The book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order, this throws many people off. Rev. 11 is merely the Two-witnesses chapter, Rev. 14 is merely The Harvest chapter, Rev. 13 the Anti-Christ chapter, Rev. 12 Israel fleeing chapter. 

EVERYTHING...........EVERYTHING is centered around the 1260 middle of the week event. Everything BEFORE this event and after the Rapture is the first half of the 70s week, thus Rev. 1 is merely Jesus speaking with John about the things he HAS SEEN (Jesus on earth, then Jesus on all of his resurrected glory) 

Now we more on to the "THINGS WHICH ARE", which of course was "The Church Age" in chapters 2 and 3. The number 10 is completion and 7 is "Divine Completion" so the 7 Churches represents the complete Church Age and the 10 days of tribulation Smyrna had means the Church would always have TROUBLES for the complete church age period. So, Rev. 2 and 3 are the Church Age Period, or the things which are.

Notice in Rev. 4:1 when John is called up he is SPECIFICALLY TOLD these are the things which "WILL BE HEREAFTER"

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me(LAST TRUMP = Jesus ENDS the Harvest); which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Notice, the things YOU HAVE SEEN (Jesus death and Resurrection) the things WHICH ARE (Church Age events on earth at THAT TIME) and the things which will be HEREAFTER (after the Church Age or Rapture, of course).

Rev. 11 actually starts BEFORE any Trumpets, because the coming Two-witnesses are THE BLESSING in Daniel ch. 12, the 1335. They show up 1335 dats before the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS Daniel was shown in Rev. 11:36-45. In Dan. 12:8 Daniel asks the exact same question the angel does in  verse 6, HOW LONG until all these wonders end, thus Jesus (Man in Linen) answer as pertaining unto the 1290 and 1335 are the same as the answer to the 1260, EACH EVENT, is a specific number of days until Jesus' Second Coming ENDS ALL OF TESE WONDERS !!

1.) The Two-witnesses come first at the 1335 or 1335 dats before the Jesus returns at the 2nd Coming.

2.) The False Prophet STOPS Jesus Worship and thus TAKES AWAY the Sacrifice, and then places an Image of the Beast or E.U. President in the temple and thus Jason's life under Antiochus comes to memory, he was a Jewish High Priest who bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest having his Pious High Priest brother Onias III killed, he then welcomed Antiochus into the temple of God to sacrifice a pig on the altar of God unto Zeus, he then MANDATED that all Jews become Hellenized, leading unto the famous Maccabean Revolt. So, 30 days before the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem, the AoD is placed in the temple giving the Jews who repented a 30 day window to Flee Judea (Rev. 7) just begore God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8 thus in Rev. 18:4 the Come out of her my children is God calling Israel to flee Judea. In Rev. 18:2 we see Babylon (Whole World) has become overrun by Demons, OF COURSE, Satan has been cast down and Apollyon and his hordes of demons released from the bottomless pit !! (Rev. is NOT IN ORDER) Its a series of events told in a certain order, then a series of events retold which happen at the exact same time as the other events

For example, Rev. 1 and 2 is the Church Age, then Rev. 4, 5, 6, and 7 are all in order,  they all happen BEFORE God's Wrath falls. The Seals are PROPHESIES of the coming 42 months of God's Wrath which we see in Seal # 6 and the Anti-Christs coming 42 month rule of terror on this earth as seen in Seal 1-5. Then we see the Jews fleeing Judea in Rev. 7.

Now comes the fun part, separating the REAL TIME EVENTS, vs. the Parenthetical Citation Chapters. 

Chapters 8, 9 15&16 are God's Judgment Chapters, Rev. 11 IS NOT a Judgment chapter, we see Woe #2 spoken of in passing BUT w see Woe # 2 and the judgments in Rev. 9, AND we are told the 3rd Woe comes quickly, but just like via Woe #2 the description is given elsewhere, as seen in Rev. 16, the 7 Vial ARE the 3rd Woe. Rev. 11 is simply the Two-witnesses Chapter, they show up 1335 dats before the Second Coming, thus if they live for 1260 days they MUST DIE BEFORE the Beast dies if I am correct (I am) and they do, they die at the 2nd Woe and the Beasts 1260 days comes to an end at the 7th Vial !! The first three verses simply gives us the Two-witnesses job description, they are to go unto the Jews ONLY, thus MEASURE only the Temple and THOSE (Jews) that are therein, do NOT MEASURE the Outer Court (Gentiles). 

So, we see the Judgment Chapters, then we get the Parenthetical Citation Chapters. Rev. 8, 12, 13, 17 and 18 ALL START at the exact same time, the 1260 Middle of the week. Rev. chapters 14 and 19 both cover the full 7 years because the Church is Raptured in a FLASHBACK in Rev. 14:14 (The Harvest Chapter that also shows the Wheat/Israel abs the Wicked in the Wine-press of Gods Wrath) Rev. 19 sees the Bride Marrying Jesus so that covers 7 years also, Rev. 11 starts 75 days before the 1260 middle of the week because the Two-witnesses are the 1335 Blessing.

The Woman is CHASED fir 1260 Days in Rev. 12. In Rev. 13 we know the Beast RULES for 126 days, see my point? In Rev. 12 we know the Harlot (ALL FLASE RELIGION) will be wiped out by this Anti-Christ who demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! So that happens also at the 1260 when he comes to power. Rev. 18 is God's 42 months of Wrath on the Whole World (Babylon). So, each chapter is a Parenthetical Citation chapter of events that happen  at the exact same time as Judgments of God. 

God Bless, I know its a complex book, but if I know one thing in all of life, this is it. 

Your understanding goes in some directions that I had a difficult time staying on track with.  Hey, you said it yourself, "I know its a complex book..."   But, I'll be mindful of what you've put forth.

At one point, you say of The Revelation, "Its a series of events told in a certain order, then a series of events retold which happen at the exact same time as the other events."  This is similar to my position on chapters 11-20.  I'm not for sure where some of our positions may converge, but the understanding I have come to of The Revelation is that it is chronological, and this can be seen when it is understood concerning the overlapping, yet progressive, nature of chapters 11-20.  I speak to this in my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

The following overview (which can be much expanded) shows some of the understandings I have come to on The Revelation and its chronology, keeping with the layout of the chapters...

In the opening verses of The Revelation, John was shown things concerning the future that were "at hand" to begin to take place.  The Revelation is his record of what he saw and of his being told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he tells of his invitation to come up to Heaven, of his suddenly being there "in the spirit",  and of his seeing God on His throne (Rev. 4).  He then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand that was sealed with seven seals, and of the ceremony he witnessed, in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) was given charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what John was told was "at hand" related to the Lamb's opening of the seals of this mysterious book.  The seals of this book pertain to the era of the NT Church and what is slated to take place before the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin (Rev. 6-7).  Christ opened the first four seals late in the first century, granting to Satan the spiritual realm liberties that he (Satan) was given (he wouldn't have any otherwise) to continue the plying of his craft into and throughout the Christian era.  These liberties have ever since been exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen, and they have been riding down through the corridors of Church history, even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, things that have characterized every century of history since.  The 5th Seal reveals the cry of Church era martyrs for justice.  Arguably, it has also already been opened, and my position would be that it has.  Whereas the 6th Seal is yet to be opened, Christ may open it at any time.  When He does, the signs concerning the sun and the moon, connected scripturally with the beginning of the Day of the Lord, will be fulfilled.  Just preceding, but concurrent with this, Christ will return for the resurrection and the gathering of the Church and make a powerful and glorious "sign" appearance, high in the sky over Israel---all in preparation for the upcoming fulfilling of the last, or 70th week of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy.  Staying within the bounds afforded by Scripture, on the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, Christ can also open the 7th Seal (Rev. 8).  This obviously suggests that He will then open the cover of the Seven Sealed Book, which could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD---as the period of the Day of the Lord begins this same day.  Said another way, the day that the 6th and 7th seals are opened is going to be a very huge day!  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, evidences support that what is in our Western Hemisphere will be taken out of the picture in further preparation---like a stage reset---for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  In the time frame of the 5th and 6th trumpets (Rev. 9), the remainder of the world's stage will be readied for this last seven years to take place.  Very fittingly, when everything is readied, John sees "a little book open" that Scripture supports as being the little book of Daniel (Rev. 10).  We then see the first evidences that the Antichrist has confirmed his infamous seven year covenant with Israel, meaning the period of Daniel's 70th Week has begun indeed.  The sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week and herald the time in which Christ's complete reign over this world will occur (Rev. 11).  Daniel's 70th Week will continue (Rev. 12-18) until Christ's return as the King of kings and Lord of lords, at which time "every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him:  and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him" (Rev. 19).  The period of the 7th Trumpet will continue through Christ's Millennial Reign, the passing away of this world, and the Last Judgment, which will also complete the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment---resulting in complete closure for this world (Rev. 20).  At this time, time as we know it will give way to eternity and what God has for all of His saved in the Happily Ever After (Rev. 21-22).

Following is a link to a complete outline of The Revelation I have developed.  I hope it will be found to be helpful concerning all the foregoing as well (https://www.sevensealedbook.com/copy-of-appendix-iv).

Edited November 20, 2022 by not an echo

[seeking the lost]

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

You have done a lot of work on the subject but there must be a distinction between tribulation, which Jesus said we would have in this world, and the great tribulation.  Looking at the context in chapter 6 there is a conversation with those who have been slain.  

Consider Revelation 6: 9-11;

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I believe that these in chapter 7 are those spoken of in chapter 6, their fellow servants that should be killed.  These are those killed in the great tribulation.

[not an echo]

On 10/24/2022 at 2:51 PM, seeking the lost said:

On 6/6/2022 at 12:16 PM, not an echo said:

To sum things up so far, when the words "great tribulation" from Revelation 7:14 (as they occur in the KJV) are understood to be in reference to what the Church as a whole has experienced since the time that Christ founded it, it is much easier to recognize this great multitude that John saw as being the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through.

You have done a lot of work on the subject but there must be a distinction between tribulation, which Jesus said we would have in this world, and the great tribulation.  Looking at the context in chapter 6 there is a conversation with those who have been slain.  

Consider Revelation 6: 9-11;

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I believe that these in chapter 7 are those spoken of in chapter 6, their fellow servants that should be killed.  These are those killed in the great tribulation.

Hello seeking the lost,

Concerning your opening paragraph, I would like to encourage you to look further at my thoughts on this in the opening post of my thread, Tribulation, Great Tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/269079-tribulation-great-tribulation-and-daniels-70th-week/).

Concerning your belief "that these in chapter 7" (the great multitude of 7:9-17) "are those spoken of in chapter 6" (the martyrs of 6:11b), the following represents some of my position on this...

With the opening of the 5th Seal, John sees the souls of those who have been martyred and hears a statement made to them concerning more that are to be martyred at some future time.  Immediately noteworthy is how what J0hn here sees relates to the previous seal.  This helps to show us that the 4th Seal concerns martyrdom.  Of this, consider the opening post of my thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).  This, with other evidences, reinforces that these seals belong to the era of the Church and are something other than judgments of God upon the wicked.  History abundantly testifies to the martyrdom that has occurred since the time of Christ.  And, with the nature of martyrdom and its attending persecution, it is certainly not difficult to imagine such a longing for justice.

But, there is also a very telling clue here as to when in the Christian era this cry for justice will occur.  The wording of the martyr's question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood" reflects that a significant period of time has transpired leading up to the opening of this seal---time that can certainly be accounted for now.  When the 5th Seal is opened and the martyrs cry out, they are assured that it will be "yet for a little season," and this because that more are to be killed "as they were."  This fits a 5th Seal opening closer to the time of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture, especially in light of the martyrdom that will occur during those seven years ("a little season"), which will begin not long afterwards.  This supports that as the rapture draws nearer, so will the fulfillment of what John here sees, meaning this cry for justice may have already occurred---and my position would be that it has.  Meaning, the opening of the 6th Seal (at which time the Church will be gathered/Matt. 24:29-31;  I Thess. 4:16-5:3) is imminent.

As far as those who will actually be martyred during the little season of Daniel's 70th Week, John is later shown concerning these also:  Of the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:12;  of the 144,000, in Revelation 14:1-5;  and of those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist, in Revelation 15:1-4.

Interestingly, in The Revelation, John is shown all of the household of God ultimately safe in glory with God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:  Those of the Old Testament days (and up until John's invite/Rev. 4:1) in Revelation 5:8-10, those of the New Testament days (up until the rapture of the Church) in Revelation 7:9-17, and then the gleanings, or those shown in the prior paragraph above.  Of course, all of God's children together (which would also include the "sheep" of Matt. 25:31-40) will be considered a part of the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6).

With a little better understanding of my position on the above, I hope you will look again at my opening post (and even all my posts) of this thread.

[seeking the lost]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:06 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your belief "that these in chapter 7" (the great multitude of 7:9-17) "are those spoken of in chapter 6" (the martyrs of 6:11b), the following represents some of my position on this...

Chapter 6 is a picture of those already slain for their testimony.  They ask the question how long?  The answer is that many more have to be killed.  The many more are the multitude of chapter 7.  This multitude came out of the great tribulation by way of death.

[not an echo]

On 10/31/2022 at 4:24 PM, seeking the lost said:

On 10/29/2022 at 12:06 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your belief "that these in chapter 7" (the great multitude of 7:9-17) "are those spoken of in chapter 6" (the martyrs of 6:11b), the following represents some of my position on this...

Chapter 6 is a picture of those already slain for their testimony.  They ask the question how long?  The answer is that many more have to be killed.  The many more are the multitude of chapter 7.  This multitude came out of the great tribulation by way of death.

Hello seeking the lost,

I would like to begin by clarifying something that I'm not sure you picked up on concerning my position.  By "Chapter 6" I am understanding you to mean Revelation 6:9-11.  And, if I am understanding you correctly, I agree with what you say in your opening sentence, as I believe that the martyrs of whom John said "cried with a loud voice" are those who have been martyred during the era of the NT Church---which began at Pentecost.  And then, those of whom they are told "should be killed as they were..." are unmistakably shown in Revelation 15:2-4.

Concerning your statements that, "The many more are the multitude of chapter 7" and "This multitude came out of the great tribulation by way of death",  I'm taking it that you believe the "great tribulation" spoken of in 7:14 is Daniel's 70th Week.  Is this your position?  If so, I guess a first question of mine would be this:  Where do you see Daniel's 70th Week actually beginning, and how do you reconcile this with the chronology of The Revelation, especially concerning the seals and the trumpets?

To clarify my position a little further, because I see the rapture taking place pre-Daniel's 70th Week and the opening of the 5th Seal to occur shortly before the rapture (which I see as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal), this would mean that with the rapture, the "little season" the martyrs are spoken to of would be on the horizon to begin.  For example, if the 6th Seal is opened and the rapture occurs today, I can see Daniel's 70th Week beginning as soon as a few months afterward, and Daniel's 70th Week being the "little season" that the martyrs are spoken to of.  Because I believe that the rapture and the opening of the 6th Seal is imminent, this would require that I believe the 5th Seal is possibly open now---which I do.

Just one more thing (I bet you remember Columbo ).  Of what the martyrs are told in Revelation 6:5, you state that they are told "that many more have to be killed."  And, you connect this with the "great multitude, which no man could number..." of Revelation 7:9.  Where do you see evidences in Scripture that there is going to be such a number ready to be martyred during the time of Daniel's 70th Week?  When it is considered what Jesus said concerning "as it was in the days of Noe..." (Lk. 17:26) and "as it was in the days of Lot..." (Lk. 17:28), this would suggest that those willing to be martyred during Daniel's 70th Week will be relatively few---like gleanings.  Consider from Revelation 13...

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And then this, just a little further...

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

By the evidence of this (and more), rather than a great multitude ready to be martyred for their faith during that time, I would submit that it will be a great multitude that will be ready to worship the beast!  Again, according to the evidence of Scripture, it would seem that those willing to be martyred during that time will be relatively few---like hundreds (if even that many), instead of thousands or millions.

Something Paul says also relates to this.  Consider from II Thessalonians 2...

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is where the world was at in Noah's day, in Lot's day, and where the world is at in our day---even now.  As Paul told Timothy in II Timothy 3...

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Moreover, rather than a great revival taking place during the time of Daniel's 70th Week, we see mankind's unwillingness to repent.  Consider from Revelation 9...

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

And from chapter 16...

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of Heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

I think of what Jesus said in Luke 18...

7 And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?

8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Even the tenor of Scripture does not support that there will be a "great multitude, which no man [can] number" that will be ready to be martyred for their faith during Daniel's 70th Week.

[seeking the lost]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Just one more thing (I bet you remember Columbo ).  Of what the martyrs are told in Revelation 6:5, you state that they are told "that many more have to be killed."  And, you connect this with the "great multitude, which no man could number..." of Revelation 7:9.  Where do you see evidences in Scripture that there is going to be such a number ready to be martyred during the time of Daniel's 70th Week?  When it is considered what Jesus said concerning "as it was in the days of Noe..." (Lk. 17:26) and "as it was in the days of Lot..." (Lk. 17:28), this would suggest that those willing to be martyred during Daniel's 70th Week will be relatively few---like gleanings.  Consider from Revelation 13...

You have a way of complicating things that are straightforward and simple.  I am focused on the words these are they that have come out of great tribulation Rev. 7:14.  That is contrary to your position but it is what the text does say.

Psalms 116:15, Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.

[not an echo]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:31 PM, seeking the lost said:

On 11/11/2022 at 1:19 PM, not an echo said:

Just one more thing (I bet you remember Columbo ).  Of what the martyrs are told in Revelation 6:5, you state that they are told "that many more have to be killed."  And, you connect this with the "great multitude, which no man could number..." of Revelation 7:9.  Where do you see evidences in Scripture that there is going to be such a number ready to be martyred during the time of Daniel's 70th Week?  When it is considered what Jesus said concerning "as it was in the days of Noe..." (Lk. 17:26) and "as it was in the days of Lot..." (Lk. 17:28), this would suggest that those willing to be martyred during Daniel's 70th Week will be relatively few---like gleanings.  Consider from Revelation 13...

You have a way of complicating things that are straightforward and simple.  I am focused on the words these are they that have come out of great tribulation Rev. 7:14.  That is contrary to your position but it is what the text does say.

Hello seeking the lost,

I can kinda see why you might think that I "have a way of complicating things that are straightforward and simple."  Sometimes I may go further than is really necessary to show the "why" for my positions.  But, whatever we are believing, it is essential that our understandings align with all that God has revealed to us in Scripture.  And, this is the goal of all I put forth.

More simply put, I see two possibilities concerning the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9 and the "great tribulation" these are said to have "came out of" (vs. 14)---either of which support a more solid position concerning the timing of the rapture than what has commonly been put forth, IMHO.  I show these two possibilities in the opening post of my thread titled, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  In my opening post there, I show the A,B,C's and 1,2,3's of my different position and the two possibilities I am speaking of are shown there with my proposition Z, as shown below...     

Z.  The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church has so long been through,

     OR,

     The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church will have just escaped from.

I go into detail concerning both of these possibilities in my opening post of this present thread.  My experience and observation has been that the complicated thing is trying to make the other views hold up under careful Bible scrutiny.  The understandings I have come to are really quite simple and defendable and bring to light some very interesting truths that have not been arrived at by those holding to the common views.

[Keras]

21 hours ago, not an echo said:

   The "great tribulation" spoken of in Rev. 7:14 is what the Church will have just escaped from.

Plainly, logically and simply, great tribulation, or great ordeal, as my REBible puts it; refers to the just happened Sixth Seal.  Revelation 7 is a chapter between Rev 6 and 8, the Seventh Seal. 

We are told to not mess with the Book of Revelation.  The vast multitude in Rev 7:9 are obviously the living people who kept strong in their faith during the sudden and devastating Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.  THEY receive white robes and go to live in the holy Land, being God's holy people, sending out 144,000 missionaries in pairs, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.  Isaiah 66:18b-21

The actual Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, will take place in the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.   We know that God's holy Christian people, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are present in Jerusalem and the holy Land by; Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8.