The Correct Chronology of Revelation Chapters 6 and 7

[DeighAnn]

19 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Well that's a start...understanding that when John is called into heaven by Christ that he John is seated on the throne of God in Christ.

 I NEVER mentioned John 'seated' on the throne.  

Please don't do that it sets a bad precedent.  
 

[tatwo]

9 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

 I NEVER mentioned John 'seated' on the throne.  

Please don't do that it sets a bad precedent.  
 

No...you did not say that...I did...DeighAnn...I merely asked you if you agreed with what I said?

Do you understand that positionally those who have been born of the water and the Spirit are indeed seated on the throne of God in Christ?

Did you remember that we are hidden with Christ in God?

As I have said before...the throne in heaven is symbolic of the "power and authority" of the King of kings. 

The King of kings is on His throne...

The Father doesn't judge anyone, but he has made his Son the judge of everyone.

Those born again...are Christ's body...and they are filled with Christ who completely fills everything.

How are we doing here?

Tatwo...:)

[DeighAnn]

10 minutes ago, tatwo said:

No...you did not say that...I did...DeighAnn...I merely asked you if you agreed with what I said?

Do you understand that positionally those who have been born of the water and the Spirit are indeed seated on the throne of God in Christ?

Did you remember that we are hidden with Christ in God?

As I have said before...the throne in heaven is symbolic of the "power and authority" of the King of kings. 

The King of kings is on His throne...

The Father doesn't judge anyone, but he has made his Son the judge of everyone.

Those born again...are Christ's body...and they are filled with Christ who completely fills everything.

How are we doing here?

Tatwo...:)

Just looking to find out who you think the living creatures are.  I would sure appreciate it coming in the next post rather than waiting for another 2 or 3, because I am pretty much done for the night and this has been drawn out long enough for me already, if you don't mind.  

[tatwo]

4 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Just looking to find out who you think the living creatures are.  I would sure appreciate it coming in the next post rather than waiting for another 2 or 3, because I am pretty much done for the night and this has been drawn out long enough for me already, if you don't mind.

Christ...Head & Body as one "man"

Tatwo

Edited January 18, 2023 by tatwo
fix

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Just looking to find out who you think the living creatures are.  I would sure appreciate it coming in the next post rather than waiting for another 2 or 3, because I am pretty much done for the night and this has been drawn out long enough for me already, if you don't mind.  

Ezekiel 10:15KJV

15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

Edited January 18, 2023 by truth7t7

[tatwo]

6 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Ezekiel 10:15KJV

15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.

Can you explain cherubims?

Tatwo

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, tatwo said:

Can you explain cherubims?

Tatwo

This is a good short definition:

CHER´UB, n. plu. cherubs, but the Hebrew plural cherubim is also used. [Heb. כרוב kerub. In Ch. and Syr. the corresponding verb signifies to plow; and the word is said to signify properly any image or figure; if so, it may have been named from engraving. But this is uncertain, and the learned are not agreed on the signification.]

A figure composed of various creatures, as a man, an ox, an eagle or a lion. The first mention of cherubs is in Gen. 3:24, where the figure is not described, but their office was, with a flaming sword, to keep or guard the way of the tree of life. The two cherubs which Moses was commanded to make at the ends of the Mercy seat, were to be of beaten work of gold; and their wings were to extend over the Mercy seat, their faces towards each other, and between them was the residence of the Deity. Ex. 25. The cherubs, in Ezekiel’s vision, had each four heads or faces, the hands of a man and wings. The four faces were, the face of a bull, that of a man, that of a lion, and that of an eagle. They had the likeness of a man. Ezek. 4. and 10. In 2 Sam. 22:11. and Psalm 18., Jehovah is represented as riding on a cherub, and flying on the wings of the wind. In the celestial hierarchy, cherubs are represented as spirits next in order to seraphs. The hieroglyphical and emblematical figures embroidered on the vails of the tabernacle are called cherubs of curious or skilful work. Ex. 26.^[1]

What these faces may represent is also very interesting.

 

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^[1] Webster, Noah. Noah Webster’s first edition of An American dictionary of the English language. 2006: n. pag. Print.

[Dennis1209]

@tatwo A longer examination:

cherub, cherubim cher′uhb, cher′uh-bim (כְּרוּב H4131, usually pl., כּרֻבִים [meaning unknown, although “intercessor” has been suggested on the basis of Akk. karābu, “to pray, bless”]; χερούβ G5938 [in the NT, only in the form χερουβίν, Heb. 9:5]). KJV also “cherubims” (superfluous English pl. form). The term refers to a winged angelic creature and is applied mainly to the images made for the tabernacle and the temple.

I. Nature. The nature of the cherub has been a matter of debate. The biblical evidence is basically limited to the OT (Heb. 9:5 is the only direct reference in the NT). Appeal has been made to the ANE milieu, resulting in several views.

A. Identification. The Bible states the existence of spiritual beings created by God that may assume physical form for particular purposes. These creatures may be classified into two categories: (1) those in proper relationship with God are generally called angels or messengers, and (2) those in rebellion against God are referred to as demons. Some passages (e.g., Eph. 6:12; Col. 1:16) give other designations for these creatures. See angel; demon.

There are probably a number of angelic ranks. The Bible mentions the “angel of the Lord,” which may be a Christophany. Chief angels are called “archangels” (1 Thess. 4:16; Jude 9) or chief princes (Dan. 10:13). The names of Gabriel and Michael are associated with these positions. The angelic leader of the demonic hosts is Satan or the devil (associated by some with the morning star [KJV, Lucifer] of Isa. 14:12; cf. the “guardian cherub” of Ezek. 28:14).

The term “living creatures” (Ezek. 1:5–28; 3:13; 10:15, 17; Rev. 4:6–9; 5:6–14; 6:1–8; 7:1–11; 14:3; 15:7; 19:4) probably indicates a classification of specialized angelic beings including cherubim, seraphim (see seraph), and other unnamed ranks of supernatural beings. However, they seem to be distinguished from certain angels (Rev. 5:11; 7:11; 15:7). While the living creatures of Ezek. 1:5–28 are to be equated with the cherubim of 10:15–21, those in Rev. 4:6–9 are similar to cherubim in that they have facial features of the same animals. Each living creature in the book of Revelation had a single face, which differs from the two-faced and four-faced cherubim of Ezekiel (Ezek. 1:6; 10:14; 41:18). The “wheels” associated with the cherubim of Ezekiel’s vision had eyes like the living creatures of Revelation, but not the cherubim themselves (Ezek. 1:18; 10:12). The wheels are considered as another rank of angelic beings in the pseudepigraphical book of 1 Enoch. The living creatures of Revelation have six wings (Rev. 4:8), which is true of the seraphim (Isa. 6:2), but not of the cherubim, who have two (1 Ki. 6:24) or four wings (Ezek. 10:21).

B. Number. The total number of cherubim created by God is unknown. Four are mentioned in Ezek. 1:5; 10:9, 12. Many artistic representations of them were used in the decorations of the tabernacle and Solomon’s temple. The wide decorative use in Israel’s religious edifices, along with the common plural form cherubim, would argue for the possibility of a multiplicity of these creatures.

C. Appearance. The physical appearance of the cherubim is problematic. With prophetic visions and artistic representations being the sole biblical evidence for form, one could question whether they are realistic attempts to picture the actual creature. The composite nature of these beings and differences of description seem enigmatic. The repetition of the terminology “likeness” and “form” in the description of Ezekiel would indicate a definite inability on his part to express in words what he had seen. It is possible that either he had never before seen such creatures or his readers were not expected to be familiar with them in this form. Even in the 1st cent. a.d., Josephus pointed out that no one knew what the cherubim looked like (Ant. 8.3.3).

It is known from the Bible that cherubim had the general appearance of men (Ezek. 1:5), but hardly like the winged boys of the art of later times. Each had two faces (41:18—those of a man and a lion) or four faces (1:6, 10; 10:14, 21–22—of a lion, an ox [replaced by a cherub’s face in 10:14], an eagle, and a man). Each cherub had at least two wings (1 Ki. 6:24) while others had four (Ezek. 1:6, 11). In both cases two wings were extended above and were used to fly. The four winged cherubim used the second pair to cover their bodies (cf. the wings of the seraphim, Isa. 6:2). Under their wings they had human hands (Ezek. 1:8; 10:8, 21, prob. only two). Their legs were straight, not capable of bending. Their feet were like the sole of a calf’s foot (1:7).

In an attempt to solve the problems related to the appearance of the cherubim, scholars have turned to the culture of the ANE for complementary information. The archaeological remains have yielded many hybrid human-animal forms in Assyrian, Babylonian, Hittite, Egyptian, Greek, and Canaanite art from the first two millennia b.c. These include winged sphinxes (cf. ivory box from Megiddo and the sphinx throne of King Ahiram of Byblos in ANEP, plates 128, 456–458 respectively), winged humans (ANEP, plates 609, 614), winged humans with eagle’s heads (ANEP, plates 617, 645), and other combinations of human and animal forms (ANEP, plates 644–66).

W. F. Albright (in The Biblical Archaeologist Reader, ed. G. W. Wright and D. N. Freedman [1961], 95–97) and others believe that the cherubim may be identified with the winged sphinx or winged lion with a human head because of its dominance in the art and religious symbolism of Syro-Palestine. Some would equate the cherubim with the Assyro-Babylonian colossi, Egyptian griffins, and other representations. One must, however, emphasize that none of these proposed identifications accurately depicts the cherubim as described in the Bible.

II. Function. Evidence concerning the function of the cherubim may be summarized under three subpoints.

A. Guardians. After Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden, God placed cherubim and a flaming, revolving sword to guard the road to the tree of life (Gen. 3:24). In this activity they are similar to the colossi of the ANE who watched the entrances of cities, palaces, and temples. The use of the cherubim in the decoration of the tabernacle and Solomon’s temple may indicate a guarding function or reflect the role of divine attendants in the celestial sphere.

B. Associated with fire. Not only were the cherubim found in close relationship with the flaming sword when they protected the Garden of Eden—they are also said to have walked in the midst of stones of fire in the holy mountain of God (Ezek. 28:14, 16), a possible reference to God’s presence. Ezekiel in his vision saw God, the cherubim, and the throne-chariot in terms of a thunder cloud spewing lightning and having a rainbow (1:4, 13–14, 27–28; cf. ANEP, plates 490–91, 500–501 for divine association with lightning). Coals of fire were seen between the cherubim and the wheels of the divine chariot (10:6). Burning coals were taken from there to be spread in judgment over the city of Jerusalem (10:2). While the seraphim utilized hot coals to purify the lips of God’s servant (Isa. 6:6–7), the cherubim dispensed them at God’s command as an act of judgment (Ezek. 10:2, 7).

C. Bearers of God’s throne-chariot. Yahweh was characterized as the one “who is enthroned [lit., sits] between the cherubim” (1 Sam. 4:4; 2 Sam. 6:2; 2 Ki. 19:15; 1 Chr. 13:6; Ps. 80:1; 99:1; Isa. 37:16) because God made himself known to Moses from between the two cherubim mounted at opposite ends of the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant (Exod. 25:22; Num. 7:89). Even as Yahweh is represented by the cloud of glory upon the two cherubim of the ark of the covenant, so in the ANE deities are illustrated by human forms standing on the backs of lions, bulls, or composite animals singly or in pairs (cf. ANEP, plates 470–74, 486, 500–501, 522, 530–31, 534, 537).

Artist’s rendition of one of the cherubim that were placed on opposite ends of the mercy seat.

The place where God sat on the outstretched wings of the cherubim was called the chariot (1 Chr. 28:18). In Ezekiel’s vision Yahweh was visualized as seated on a throne-chariot (Ezek. 1:26; 10:1) having four wheels capable of movement in any direction (1:16–17; 10:11). The wheels were empowered by adjacent cherubim (1:21; 10:17) who used their wings to make the throne-chariot airborne (10:16). See throne.

The throne-chariot with the cherubim in Ezekiel was seen as a storm cloud upon which Yahweh rode (Ezek. 1:4). Other passages (Ps. 104:3; Isa. 19:1) declare that Yahweh uses the clouds as his chariot and rides the swift cloud controlling the weather much like the storm gods in Canaanite stories (C. H. Gordon, Ugaritic Textbook [1965], 484, lists the references in Ugaritic literature to the “rider of the clouds”). In two parallel poetic passages Yahweh is pictured as riding on a flying cherub (2 Sam. 22:11; Ps. 18:10). This does not mean that cherubim are to be equated with clouds. Similarly, Ps. 80 seems to attribute to Yahweh the character of a sun god with shining face as he rides a cherub across the sky. This brings to mind the ubiquitous winged sun disc of the ANE (cf. ANEP, e.g., plate 653) and the solar chariots of pagan sun worship (2 Ki. 23:11). Neither should be identified as cherubim.

III. OT decorative uses. Composite human-animal figures are found in ancient art representing subordinates ministering to deities. In like manner cherubim were used in connection with Israel’s religious architecture having important symbolic meaning. At God’s direction they were incorporated into the design of the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle. Solomon’s temple utilized them in its decoration. Ezekiel’s vision of the millennial temple also exhibited cherubim.

A. Ark of the covenant. On the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant were placed two cherubim facing one another (Exod. 25:18–20; 37:7–9). They were made out of hammered gold and were of one piece with the mercy seat. The cherubim were formed with their wings spread above and overshadowing the mercy seat.

B. Tabernacle. Cherubim were embroidered on ten curtains of white fine-twined linen and material of blue, purple, and scarlet. These curtains, twenty-eight cubits by four cubits each, when coupled together, made up either the outside wall or the undermost covering of the tabernacle tent. A veil of the same materials was hung between the Most Holy Place and the Holy Place. On this were also embroidered cherubim (Exod. 26; 36).

C. Solomon’s temple. In the inner sanctuary of Solomon’s temple were placed two olive-wood cherubim overlaid with gold (1 Ki. 6:23–28; 2 Chr. 3:10–14; 5:7–9). The cherubim were ten cubits high and each had two wings five cubits long. The wingspread of each was ten cubits. They were set up facing the entrance so that one wing of each cherub touched the outside wall of the inner sanctuary on opposite sides, while their other wings touched in the middle of the room. Under the cherubim the ark of the covenant was situated.

On the wood paneled walls of the temple were carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers both in the inner and outer rooms (1 Ki. 6:29; 2 Chr. 3:7). The relationship of cherubim with palm trees is understood by some as a decorative motif with reference to Gen. 3:24. The same decorations were cut into the olive-wood doors of the inner sanctuary and the cyprus doors of the nave. These were overlaid with gold (1 Ki. 6:31–35). In the doorway of the inner sanctuary a veil of linen and blue, purple, and scarlet material was hung and on it were embroidered cherubim (2 Chr. 3:14).

Solomon made ten laver stands cast from bronze after the pattern of a wagon or chariot (1 Ki. 7:27–39). They had four wheels with axles attached to a squared frame on which panels were fixed. Each of these panels was decorated with lions, oxen, cherubim, and wreaths. The same decoration was applied to the stays on the round band at the top of the stand.

D. Ezekiel’s temple. In the temple foreseen by Ezekiel, cherubim were to be part of the decorative scheme (Ezek. 41:17–20). On all the walls around the inner room, the nave, and the whole temple from the floor to above the door were carved cherubim and palm trees. The cherubim had two faces turned in opposite directions: one of a man and the other of a young lion. The design alternated cherubim with palm trees so that there was a palm tree on either side of each cherub and vice versa (cf. ANEP, plates 654, 656). (See also P. Dhorme and L.-H. Vincent in RB 35 [1926]: 328–58, 481–95; M. Haran in IEJ 9 [1959]: 30–38; R. de Vaux, Ancient Israel [1961], 295–302, 304, 319–20; J. B. Payne, The Theology of the Older Testament [1962], 289–95; DDD, 189–92.)

D^[1]

 

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^[1] Silva, Moisés, and Merrill Chapin Tenney. The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, A-C 2009: 821–822. Print.

[tatwo]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

to plow

From your shorter citation Dennis…

“to plow”…”figure composed of various creatures, as a man, an ox, an eagle or a lion”…”The cherubs, in Ezekiel’s vision, had each four heads or faces, the hands of a man and wings. The four faces were, the face of a bull, that of a man, that of a lion, and that of an eagle. They had the likeness of a man.”

It seems acceptable that the “Cherubim” as pictured in Ezekiel can be understood by his characterization of all four of the “Living Creatures” as the “Cherubim”

"Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when a man went in, and the cloud filled the inner court. Then the glory of the Lord went up from the cherub, and paused over the threshold of the temple; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the Lord’s glory. And the sound of the wings of the cherubim was heard even in the outer court, like the voice of Almighty God when He speaks" (Ezekiel 10:3-5).

It continues on.

And when I looked there were four wheels by the cherubim (Ezekiel 10:9a)

Of course, that would be confusing if we did not understand that “cherubim” was the word that described all four creatures, and that word was for the plower or the ox.

“And when I looked there were four wheels by the cherubim, one wheel by one cherub and another wheel by each other cherub; the wheels appeared to have the color of a beryl stone. As for their appearance, all four looked alike –as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went toward any of their four directions; they did not turn aside when they went, but followed in the direction the head was facing. They did not turn aside when they went.”  

Again, you have the whole description exactly as spoken of before in chapter 1, including the following:  

“And their whole body, with their back, their hands, their wings, and the wheels that the four had, were full of eyes all around. As for the wheels, they were called in my hearing, “Wheel.” Each one had four faces: the first face was the face of the cherub [the ox], the second face the face of a man, the third face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle” (Ezekiel 10:9-15, comments added in brackets). 

Here, in verse 14 of Ezekiel 10, he actually describes the cherub as the ox, and names the other three faces. So, there is no issue here. 

Just take a simple look at the description of the “4 Living Creatures” from Revelation 4:6-8 

“And before the throne was something like a sea of glass, like crystal. In the middle of the throne and around it were four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature was like an ox, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes all around and within…” (Rev 4:6-8a) 

It is reasonable to suggest that these “Four Living Creatures” In Ezekiel and Revelation are the same creature…so they been around a while. 

Both Ezekiel and John place these creatures “right on…immediately around…and under the throne of God”…they’re proximity to the center of eternal authority and power (Throne of God) is undeniable…they speak with the voice of the Almighty God…this is due to their position…they move in perfect symmetry and harmony…there is more. 

It would seem that when Ezekiel sees them it is as though they are on earth…when John sees them they are in heaven…thus there are some differences…looks like the “Four Living Creatures” have the ability to move between heaven and earth.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

What these faces may represent is also very interesting.

Agreed…what do you see?

Tatwo...:)