A Mis - Understood Topic: Timing of the Rapture

[iamlamad]

Since this thread is about the timing of the rapture, Paul does give us timing information in 1 Thes. 5. The rapture will come just before God's wrath begins.

John also gives us rapture timing information. According to John in Revelation, the rapture must come after the final church age martyr at the 5th seal, but before the Day of His wrath begins at the 7th seal. The church has been waiting at the 5th seal for that final church age martyr. The rapture will END the church age, and cause some martyr to be that final martyr of the church age, "until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed." (AMP)

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35     until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Chances are very good that they did not look into David's grave to see if His bones were still there.  Perhaps David was one of these:

52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints (God’s people) who had fallen asleep [in death] were raised [to life]; 53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered the holy city (Jerusalem) and appeared to many people. 

I am convinced that this is when God raised up the elders of the Old Testament. Someone who has been to heaven but was allowed to return to his body SAW and talked with Father Abraham, and asked him why he looked different than many other of the saints in heaven. This is what Abraham told him:

 

"The church on earth and in heaven will soon unite in one great jubilee and celebrate the final and great victories of the cross of our Lord, at the resurrection of all the saints, from the days of Abel to the end of the age. The living saints of earth as you know will all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, [at the rapture] and with divine permission and arrangement, we in heaven will all go back to the cradle of our nativity and say good morning to the church on earth. Then the great resurrection shall occur. [The Old Testament saints will rise "on the last day" at the end of the 70th week.] Then will follow the earth’s great Sabbath. [The 1000 year reign.]  Although we have been here for long ages, yet we have looked with great interest towards this event. Tender memories cluster about the scenes of childhood and early youth, and we feel glad to know we shall soon visit the place of our early experience in the world and the scenes that witnessed our salvation from sin. And then we shall receive the fullness and completion of our salvation. The redemption of our bodies. A very few of us have already had our resurrection as you see in my own case."

"I have been waiting for some time to ask," I replied, "what made the great difference between your appearance and those other happy spirits and even my own?"

"All the elders," said he, "received their resurrection at the time our Lord was raised and with Him became the first fruits of those who slept; yet we ourselves shall be freshly arrayed along with you for the marriage of the Lamb, a great event to which we all are looking.""

I am convinced Since this does not disagree in any way with the written scriptures, I choose to believe it. Was David one of these saints? Only God knows at this time. Words in [] added by me. 

 

O.K. Your beliefs are noted. I cannot answer because you claim a source outside the Bible, and I was neither witness to it nor is there such a thing in the Bible.

The question you have to answer, for yourself - not me, is that if Peter said that David has not yet ascended, why do so many Christians, who should love and cherish the Word of God, do all in their power to annul it. And if scripture says, in 1st Corinthians 15:23 that the main resurrection is "when He comes", why do so many say that it is not so and that we have been raised already? And if scripture says in 1st Thessalonians 4 that the living (i) will not precede the dead in rapture, (ii) that the dead RISE FIRST, and (iii) They are raptured "TOGETHER", why do so many refute this with a theory that the dead are already in heaven?

 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your theory of Paradise, a captivity, being taken prisoner to heaven is thus shown to be impossible, OR, David has been left behind. The language is simple and unambiguous and cannot be read "backwards". Every other reader whose mother tongue is English will agree that Acts 2:27-34 shows Christ dead and risen and seated at the right hand of God while David, His father, who died 1,000 years earlier, is still (i) dead, (ii) in Hades, (iii) his rotted body in his sepulcher, and (iv) him NOT ASCENDED.

It was David who saw these heavenly things. Yet he was not ascended yet.  David was a prophet who saw in advance that God would place one of his descendants on the throne.  Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ.

v.34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet said; "The Lord said to my Lord: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"

Now if a believer dies today, will his soul go to Hades or Heaven.  John 13:36 - To Peter; Where I am going, you cannot follow me now, but you will follow later.

Eph 2:6 - God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.  In order that in the coming ages he might show the incompatible riches of his grace.  

Here we see that we are raised up (not down) in order that the coming ages might see the richness of his grace.  So Paul was raised up, so we in the coming ages would see the riches of his grace.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

O.K. Your beliefs are noted. I cannot answer because you claim a source outside the Bible, and I was neither witness to it nor is there such a thing in the Bible.

The question you have to answer, for yourself - not me, is that if Peter said that David has not yet ascended, why do so many Christians, who should love and cherish the Word of God, do all in their power to annul it. And if scripture says, in 1st Corinthians 15:23 that the main resurrection is "when He comes", why do so many say that it is not so and that we have been raised already? And if scripture says in 1st Thessalonians 4 that the living (i) will not precede the dead in rapture, (ii) that the dead RISE FIRST, and (iii) They are raptured "TOGETHER", why do so many refute this with a theory that the dead are already in heaven?

 

My scriptural source was Matthew 27 when "many" were resurrected with Jesus.

WE have to rightly divide the scriptures. One could rightfully say David is still in his grave - but meaning only David's body. Someone else could say "I saw David in heaven" and be speaking of His Spirit with soul.  In other words, neither statement is a lie.

It is generally understood in the church universal that when Jesus ascended back into heaven, He EMPTIED "Abraham's bosom" from the cool side of hell and took them to heaven with Him (led captivity captive).

Paul confirmed this by writing that when a believer is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord. No one could get into heaven until Jesus paid the price for sin by His death. After that there was no need for the righteous to go "down."

I agree with Paul: the dead in Christ rise first. This does not and cannot include Old Testament saints because none of them could be "In Christ." He had not died and rose yet. The New Covenant could not begin until Jesus' death and resurrection.

We are caught up to Jesus (in the air) together. The dead in Christ make it up into the air first, then those who are alive in Christ are caught up to JOIN THEM in the air. There is no contradiction.

It is also written that Christ will bring with Him the dead in Christ. "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

What part of "them" will Christ bring? Their SPIRIT with soul part of "them." Their bodies decayed in the grave. But God will raise up those bodies and in the air they (their spirits) will join with their bodies and they will be whole again: spirit, soul and body."

Quote

says, in 1st Corinthians 15:23 that the main resurrection is "when He comes"

You have to ask yourself, "which coming?" It will be Paul's coming for the rapture events. It will NOT be His coming to Armageddon.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

My scriptural source was Matthew 27 when "many" were resurrected with Jesus.

WE have to rightly divide the scriptures. One could rightfully say David is still in his grave - but meaning only David's body. Someone else could say "I saw David in heaven" and be speaking of His Spirit with soul.  In other words, neither statement is a lie.

It is generally understood in the church universal that when Jesus ascended back into heaven, He EMPTIED "Abraham's bosom" from the cool side of hell and took them to heaven with Him (led captivity captive).

Paul confirmed this by writing that when a believer is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord. No one could get into heaven until Jesus paid the price for sin by His death. After that there was no need for the righteous to go "down."

I agree with Paul: the dead in Christ rise first. This does not and cannot include Old Testament saints because none of them could be "In Christ." He had not died and rose yet. The New Covenant could not begin until Jesus' death and resurrection.

We are caught up to Jesus (in the air) together. The dead in Christ make it up into the air first, then those who are alive in Christ are caught up to JOIN THEM in the air. There is no contradiction.

It is also written that Christ will bring with Him the dead in Christ. "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

What part of "them" will Christ bring? Their SPIRIT with soul part of "them." Their bodies decayed in the grave. But God will raise up those bodies and in the air they (their spirits) will join with their bodies and they will be whole again: spirit, soul and body."

You have to ask yourself, "which coming?" It will be Paul's coming for the rapture events. It will NOT be His coming to Armageddon.

I understand that you hold a popular view. I am familiar with their arguments. In five years time you will have changed your mind. I present you my argument.

At death a man is torn apart. His spirit returns to God Who gave it (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). His body is laid on the surface of the earth to rot back to the elements (Gen.3:18). The man's soul, which is the man, goes to Hades. A dead man is naked and unclean (2nd Cor.5:1-5). In every single case in scripture, a man who went to heaven did so bodily. Enoch, Elijah, Christ,the Raptured etc. Every naked soul up to and including Jesus went to Hades.

Jesus is called the firstfruits of them that slept. When we die we are said to be "planted". Thus, the Bible regards death and resurrection as planting and harvest. God is Lord of the harvest and demands a tithe. The company of saints who were resurrected on the same day (but "after" Jesus), were the firstfruits of the harvest of resurrection. Where they are today presents no problem because they are whole men - body, soul and spirit - like Elijah. If you study the harvest of scripture in Leviticus 23 you will find firstfruit without leaven and firstfruit with leaven. The firstfruit offering was a wave offering and had to be a sheaf, not an ear.

1st Corinthians 15 is THE Chapter on resurrection. In the whole Chapter it speaks about "our BODY". We never get another body. We get a new body and a spiritual body in that it is not developed in the womb and made by the Holy Spirit (see also 2nd Cor.5:1-5). There is no case in the Bible where a person got a newly created body. Our Lord Jesus, Who has preeminence in all things, still had His wounds. 2,000 years later, when our Lord Jesus bursts through the cloud like lightening, the Tribes of the Land will see Who they "pierced".

Resurrection is the process of a body being united with soul and spirit (1st Ki.17:22, Lk.8:55). The resurrection of the Christians occurs "when He comes" (1st Cor.15:23). The resurrection of Israel occurs after the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1-2). The resurrection of "the rest of the dead" is 1,000 years after Christ's return (Rev.20:5). The dead, in every case, "RISE". There is no record whatsoever of a disembodied man being in heaven. Paul and John did not know whether they went to heaven by vision or in the body, but they were alive in their bodies afterwards. The Christians are raised at THEIR last trumpet and the shout of God (1st Cor.15:52, 1st Thess.4:16). They RISE to the surface of the earth and meet the LIVING. "TOGETHER" they are caught up to the air and the clouds. In this way will the Lord bring the saints with Him.

The texts used to say that Paradise was removed to heaven do not say that. That conclusion is a Roman Catholic Myth. To be with the Lord after death is stated in Psalm 139:7–8

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in SHEOL (Hades - Gk.), behold, thou art there.

It is plainly stated that when one is with the Lord, one is "absent from the body". Thus, the statements in Acts 2:27-34 are simple, straightforward and without ambiguity. David died and went to Hades. His body lies rotted in a tomb in Jerusalem. Jesus died and went to Hades. God forbade His body to rot. BOTH were "absent from the body". After three days our Lord Jesus was released from Hades and took up the Body from the tomb. David was not one of the Old Testament saints resurrected in Matthew 27. He was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection. He is still without a body. He has NOT ascended to heaven. In Acts 15:14-16 the Holy Spirit says that David's House will be raised up again AFTER the Church is finished(completed). Since David wrote extensively about the Messiah he can be reckoned a Believer. If so, he will resurrected when Christ comes.

You will notice that I did not have to twist one sentence. I did not have to interpret one verse. They spoke plainly. The only words I overthrew were a long-standing Roman Catholic legend. If you take point for point by themselves, you will find each one correct. Combined, they build a formidable argument. The doctrine that we go to heaven when we die is Roman tradition. It is built on innuendo and half-statements. It represents a religious institute that bases its feasts on the stars. It embraces other pagan feasts. It cannot stand on the Bible alone for it must have tradition to uphold its doctrines

When you have time, consider each point coldly like a detective. If you are honest you will find difficulty making a case for dead men in heaven.

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

It was David who saw these heavenly things. Yet he was not ascended yet.  David was a prophet who saw in advance that God would place one of his descendants on the throne.  Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ.

v.34 - For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet said; "The Lord said to my Lord: sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"

No matter how you read it, David, NOT ASCENDED, saw the ascended Christ at the right hand of the Father. And this vision with David not ascended REMAINS till Christ's enemies are made His footstool.

 

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Now if a believer dies today, will his soul go to Hades or Heaven.  John 13:36 - To Peter; Where I am going, you cannot follow me now, but you will follow later.

But did our Lord not speak here of DEATH? Our Lord would die but Peter would only follow later (2nd Pet.1:12-15)

7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Eph 2:6 - God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.  In order that in the coming ages he might show the incompatible riches of his grace.  

Here we see that we are raised up (not down) in order that the coming ages might see the richness of his grace.  So Paul was raised up, so we in the coming ages would see the riches of his grace.

You have quoted what position we have PRESENTLY IN Christ. You and I both know that we have not been "RAISED UP" yet. You know that we are not physically seated in heavenly realms. You are on earth and so am I. Ephesians 2:6 shows our standing before God because we came from IN Christ.

But now I have a question. In my last posting I produced an argument. You seem reluctant to answer. How come? If I am wrong my arguments are easily crushed.

 

[Marilyn C]

`You have come to Mount Zion.....to the General Assembly.....to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect....` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

So who are these `just, righteous men (& women) made perfect.`?

`And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of DAVID and Samuel and the prophets....` (Heb. 11: 32)

These `just` people are the OT saints who are now in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting their inheritance in the city. (Heb. 11: 16)

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I agree what we will be at the throne. John also agrees.

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and this is what I saw: a vast multitude which no one could count, [gathered] from every nation and from all the tribes and peoples and languages [of the earth], standing before the throne and before the Lamb (Christ), dressed in white robes, with [d]palm branches in their hands;

Hi iamlamad,

Actually the great multitude come out of the tribulation. We are not those people. We are the Body of Christ - called out of the nations, but not delineated by the nations. 

Notice the great multitude have `palm branches` in their hands. That is symbolic of the Feast of Tabernacles. And that reveals that they will be on the new earth when the tabernacle of God comes down over the earth - God dwelling with them by His Holy Spirit. (Rev. 21: 24)

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

`You have come to Mount Zion.....to the General Assembly.....to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect....` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

So who are these `just, righteous men (& women) made perfect.`?

`And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of DAVID and Samuel and the prophets....` (Heb. 11: 32)

These `just` people are the OT saints who are now in the General Assembly in the third heaven awaiting their inheritance in the city. (Heb. 11: 16)

Hi Sister,

I am assuming that you challenge me. I gladly answer. First, the verse is written in the past tense. That anyone "have come" would mean that the readers of Hebrew have also died and gone to heaven. This then begs the question; To whom is this all written if they have ended their race and sit, bodyless, in heaven: Next, the CONTRAST that the Holy Spirit makes creates an absurdity because a question is asked of the present audience about ascending Horeb some 1,600 years before. That is, a company of listeners around 60 AD are said to "have come" to heaven instead being on the burning mount 1,600 years ago.

I'm sure you will agree that this is not the point of the text. Much more the text is about a race. In Chapter 11 we are shown the fruits of faith. A company of men and women WHO WITNESSED FIRSTHAND the rigors involved in this race are mentioned. They are then called "a cloud". Why? Because they were happy to wait until they received the Land under heavenly rule. The connotation is Abraham refusing the spoils of his slaughter of the three kings. He refused anything at the hand of the world.

Then the author introduces Chastisement. We are to be heirs of the world (Rom.4:13). For this we need training in discipline. This chastisement can be painful but the author points out that it is administered in the age of GRACE. That is, as Horeb, where Law was enforced, men were slain for a false move, and with the accompanying judgement, fell in the wilderness and did not inherit. But we are not chastised to destruction. We are chastised to be worthy to inherit.

Israel were under Law and an offense was met with death. But now the ex-Jews of Hebrews have converted to Christ. They no longer face a killing mountain. Their mountain is heavenly. Their inheritance is heavenly. Their reward is stored in heaven. Their birth is heavenly. Their rank is heavenly. The crowd that cheers them on is "a cloud" - heavenly. WHY is it "heavenly"? BECAUSE IT HAD ITS ORIGIN THERE! The text does not say "IN Heaven". It tells where the things originated from. Horeb was of Law for the Good Land. It knew no mercy. Mount Sion in heaven is for "the Kingdom of Heaven" coming to earth and temporal failure is met by GRACE.

Just one last point. From Genesis 2:7, when man "BECAME a living SOUL", man is called "a soul" throughout the Bible. At death this man is ripped apart. His body returns to the earth, his soul goes to Hades and his spirit returns to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Mostly the Bible addresses the man, so we track his SOUL. But here the issue is the heavenly nature of INHERITANCE. The context is the place of ORIGIN - heaven. And in heaven we don't find SOULS. We find "spirits". So even in this point is the Bible consistent.

That is the context of the passage you took. I reveals a race and a crowd of men and women who have run this race. Under Law, failure meant death for justice must prevail. But these ex-Hebrews were now under GRACE. the would be chastised, but not unto death. The prize and inheritance was the world - but a world renewed by heaven - not one polluted by the present kings.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Actually the great multitude come out of the tribulation. We are not those people. We are the Body of Christ - called out of the nations, but not delineated by the nations. 

Notice the great multitude have `palm branches` in their hands. That is symbolic of the Feast of Tabernacles. And that reveals that they will be on the new earth when the tabernacle of God comes down over the earth - God dwelling with them by His Holy Spirit. (Rev. 21: 24)

Many people assume as you do, that John was telling us they came out of the same days of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of. That is impossible. You see, John was very careful in his chronology, and up to chapter 7 in his book, he has not yet started the 70th week or "tribulation," much less arrived at the second half of the week where Jesus said "those days" of "great tribulation" would begin. Therefore, John was not talking about the same thing Jesus was talking about.

John was not told how this huge crowd got from earth to heaven. He was told how each person joined this great group of people: but hearing the gospel and becoming born again. What they came out of is life on earth. Jesus also said that in this life we would have "tribulation." God chose to call the combined "tribulation" of billions of people taken together as "great" tribulation.

As further proof, John tells us at the 5th seal - the church age matyrs - that judgment (as in the start of the Day of His wrath) could not come until the very last church age martyr is killed. That is a strong hint that the rapture will come between the 5th and 6th seals. Paul is clear that the rapture would come before the start of God's wrath which will begin with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal.

Therefore both Paul and John place the rapture between the 5th and 6th seals. As a clincher then, God allowed John to see the just raptured church in the throne room of heaven. Each one came out of this life of tribulation on earth.

In other words, you and I will be IN that great crowd!