Jayne Posted July 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.29 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, DeighAnn said: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. If you would like to, a couple more questions. Saved from WHAT? How does that effect everything? The Old Covenant 'couldn't justify' and so upon 'death' of the flesh, what exactly happened to them? The New Covenant 'COULD justify' and so upon 'death' of the flesh, what exactly happens to them? DeighAnn, Here is a wonderful link that explains what happened to both godly and ungodly Old Testament people upon death. And what happens now. It has lots of scripture and I find it to be a really good teaching. Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died? | GotQuestions.org Edited July 18, 2022 by Jayne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted July 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.64 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2022 5 hours ago, Selah7 said: Upon the death of the flesh, the flesh returns to dust. The spiritual body returns to the Father who gave it. This happens no matter which covenant a person lived under. I am asking a question or two then adding many details you and I have talked about before, so I know you already know them, but maybe I am not the only one in need of a little review, OR I could have you mixed up with someone else and this isn't what you currently believe, I AM SORRY, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. The problem with the SAME effect no matter the Covenant is the WAGES of sin. Under one covenant the person pays, under the other Christ did. Under the one covenant you were in bondage to sin, under the new one, HE tasted death for you. Under the one death had the power of the grave, under the other one CHRIST Jesus did. Under the one, the body saw corruption, under the other, no corruption until after spirit soul body have gone on living in heaven. The parable of the rich man poor man shows the difference. Was it Luke call it a 'gulf that couldn't be crossed'? WELL couldn't be crossed by those under the OLD UP UNTIL the BLood of the Lamb slain was made available. Death was defeated, the ransom paid (wages of sin went to the DEVIL) they heard the good news, repented of that sin, were washed clean and HE made a show of it all by having some of the graves opened and THOSE having gone on into the spiritual NORMALLY UNSEEN REALM were allowed to be seen by some. They 'appeared' as PROOF that Christ was the Messiah, Christ did defeat death, Christ did taste death for us, the ransom was paid, He had proclaim liberty to the captives in Sheol, opening of the prison to them that were bound by death, and those who had been 'sleeping' up until He descended WERE AWAKENED TO LIFE. (think Elisha and the arm bearer) 2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. Which of course answers all the question of were they risen in flesh (corruption does not inherit) no, did they stay alive on the earth, no, they were for show. They were only seen by some and only some that were raised were seen. BUT you can bet HE LOST NOT ONE except. THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH WAS CHANGED. DEATH could no longer CLAIM any part of a SAVED SOUL. Death and the grave would get the carcass as always, but those souls, DIDN'T DIE, didn't go to the place of the dead, didn't become bound and imprisoned weren't going to be paying the wages, they were set free way before that would happen to them. THEY WOULD NEVER DIE. Before Jesus died, the DEAD had not heard His voice that's why they were DEAD. They were paying the wages of sin, sleeping in the dust of the earth... WHY do you think it was SO BAD to be under the law? Shoot, they didn't even get to talk to GOD themselves and 'break one break them all', so EVEN having the teeniest tiniest little bitty sin, made NOT the least bit of difference, YOU WERE A SINNER. NO DIFFERENT than the WORST most unrepentant sinner. Death feeding on you, while on the other side, Abraham (came to faith WHILE under the law PROVING the law perfect, man not so much, by showing with love the following the law would lead to Faith) BUT IT COULDN'T FORGIVE. It couldn't 'taste', it couldn't pay the ransom. It couldn't help you if you died in sin. It MADE YOU KNOW AND UNDERSTAND but there was no reasoning with it. BUT with the new... BEING made a new creature in Jesus, even if you hadn't yet repented of that rather 'large animal sacrifice type of sin'and found yourself SUDDENLY DEAD, you DID NOT die a SINNER who had to pay the penalty of sin, death, YOU NEVER DIED AT ALL. pRAISE YE THE LORD. being under grace IS LIKE THE BESTEST GIFT THAT COULD EVER BE GIVEN on so many different levels I don't know how many others OFTEN drop to their knees just TO GIVE THANKS for that, but I sure do. OFTEN. John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted July 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.64 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2022 13 hours ago, Selah7 said: No one outside of Christ can, D. For everyone who believes in Christ, sin is condemned and we are made righteous. This is why Christ came—to fulfill the law on our behalf. selah… What about those who died of a heart attack right after the whole ritual? Their sins were forgiven. They had no wages of death to be paid. No sin no death straight to heaven for them. I THINK that GOD didn't always like that. Someone who never did well slides into the ascending state in while someone who was always trying was on their way WITH SACRIFICE in hand, dies of a heart attack and does go down instead of up. I can't think of the Scripture that makes me think this. Something about doing it RIGHT but not FEELING it right?? Or NOT cause I thought I would by now. How do you FULFILL A LAW? Have you ever read the laws? I can't think of how one can be 'fulfilled'. I can understand how they could be followed and I can understand how THE PROPHECIES written of Him in the law and prophets COULD BE FULFILLED but I have not had anyone who says that be able to explain it to me. Thou shalt no wear linen and wool (or how ever that went) How do you fulfill that? Don't eat scavengers. How does one go about 'fulfilling' that? Not eating scavengers is being obedient to it, but fulfilling???? I'm trying, but no, all I get is no. Maybe you have the magic words here. I still have never forgotten Diaste and the explanation of the kingdom of God suffering violence until now...pretty sure that wasn't even on the horizon for me... Anyway, trying to keep it short Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted July 18, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.64 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 18, 2022 6 hours ago, Selah7 said: We might also consider the “gulf” in Paradise mentioned in Luke 16:26. … but when people die, everyone goes to heaven (Paradise)—“the good, the bad, and the ugly.” What if paradise is just the description for the Spiritual unseen world of heaven and hell? Living with God or dying with the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted July 19, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 54 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,667 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 857 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2022 On 7/14/2022 at 3:51 PM, believeinHim said: Christ was not the end of the law, And his people have denounced the New Testament and it's laws in favor for descendant, Abraham bred pre~destination. Neither is of God, and neither is Biblical. Blessings. Following the law and relying on works and denouncing grace is neither of God, either. Blessings. l understand but I do not believe any of my thoughts / comments change because of what the Jews today or then choose to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 19, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,854 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2022 (edited) On 7/17/2022 at 2:49 PM, DeighAnn said: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. If you would like to, a couple more questions. Saved from WHAT? How does that effect everything? The Old Covenant 'couldn't justify' and so upon 'death' of the flesh, what exactly happened to them? The New Covenant 'COULD justify' and so upon 'death' of the flesh, what exactly happens to them? Jesus is the Life, he gives Life to anyone who believes in him... Jesus was and is and always will be in the Life of the Heavenly Father... When we believe in him we will always be in the Life of Jesus because the moment we believe in him, Jesus Christ inputes his righteousness upon us.. For this reason we will always be in his righteousness as long as continue to believe in him and in his Eternal Life with God the HeavenlyFather... He died for all our sins, he paid the price for all our sins. So we can remain in his righteousness and in his Life because we believe in him. We will always be in the need of his righteousness, so we can continue to remain in him forever. We can never be lost, or be taken away from him. The Life we live here on earth as believers in him is a life while we are under his blood... Our unrighteousness while consider it cannot be counted against us...we are free from our unrighteousness and we will always be.... First of all we are Judge according to our faith in him...and when we believe in him we have nothing to fear at the time of our death, when we are separated from our body but at that time we are not separated from him, because nothing can separate us from him. We are in his righteousness, our own disobedience is cover by his obedience... We have our own righteousness but we stand in his righteousness... Edited July 19, 2022 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted July 19, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,854 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,761 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 19, 2022 The people in the Sinai Covenant, under the Law of Moses given to them by God in the Sinai dessert after their exit from Egypt they stand before God according to their obedience..to the Law of God... Example before the Law was given to them (not to the whole world) they were not Judged according to the things written in the Law... (we need to work with examples) *Before the Law in the Covenant of Sinai, the Israelites had one commandment to keep according to the Covenant of Circumcision and this is to Circumcised their children on the eight day... And why on the eight day and not a day earlier? In the Covenant of Circumcision given to Abraham we do not see the reason why the Lord gave them that... But when the Law was given the people learn that Lord consider the newborn unclean and consider the newborn clean after seven days after his birth...they can still Circumcised the baby later on but not before... The iniquity it was upon the Father if he did not Circumcise the newborn... We can see with the Lord seeking to Kill Moses because his son was not Circumcised.. *Another example: a man before the Law was given was working on the Sabbath day...one example is as in this case, going to collect wood for the fire...He was an older man and all his life had collected wood on the Sabbath day...collecting wood is not a sinful act...but after the Law was given to collect wood on the Sabbath was a disobedience of the Law... The man was in his iniquity he had polluted the Sabath day, and his iniquity was upon all the other people in the Covenant of Sinai... They were all under the Judgment of the Law....the man had disobeyed the Sabbath and with him all the congregation stand condemned before the Lord, The congregation stand in comdem together with this man... His iniquity was not only upon him but upon all the congregation... If they did not punish him with the punishment according to the Law, the Lord will punish all the congregation with the punishment in the Law for disobeying the Sabbath, which is death. So the congregation had to kill this man to be free from his iniquity that was upon them. And that's what they did the stone the man to death. ***in the knew Covenant the iniquity of all the people of the world was upon Jesus Christ when he died on the Cross...our iniquity was upon him, he was punished for our sins, we are free from our iniquity and from our sins...because they were upon Jesus Christ when he died on the Cross...and he was punished for the our sins and the sins for the whole world...we only need to believe in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPMartin Posted July 30, 2022 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 186 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 41 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2022 On 7/14/2022 at 9:58 AM, DeighAnn said: What was wrong with being under the law? Why weren't we just given the Holy Spirit to help us follow the law perfectly? Besides the rituals (blood sacrifice), temple and priests being all wrapped up in Christ, what else changed? there's nothing wrong with being under the law. this life in the flesh is always under some law, depending on what nation you are in. in the case of the law by the hand of Moses, it was given by the Lord God of Israel, and not of men, for the soul purpose of a nation that is God's people, serving the accommodation of the coming of the Messiah (God with them). Israel has always been the accommodation of the Presence of their God with them. the change is the service isn't necessary anymore, the Christ has come to fulfill the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzephanyahu Posted August 2, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,625 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 2,033 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/10/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2022 Hi @DeighAnn On 7/18/2022 at 3:36 AM, DeighAnn said: How do you FULFILL A LAW? Have you ever read the laws? I can't think of how one can be 'fulfilled'. I can understand how they could be followed and I can understand how THE PROPHECIES written of Him in the law and prophets COULD BE FULFILLED but I have not had anyone who says that be able to explain it to me. Thou shalt no wear linen and wool (or how ever that went) How do you fulfill that? Don't eat scavengers. How does one go about 'fulfilling' that? Not eating scavengers is being obedient to it, but fulfilling???? I'm trying, but no, all I get is no. You are quite right. You cannot fulfil a law so that it doesn't need to be followed again - with only very few exceptions and technicalities. When the Messiah said He came to fulfil the Law, it seems that He meant to show us how to walk it perfectly and completely. In this way, the Messiah was raising the Law up and making it probe deeper into our hearts and thoughts rather than just outside deeds and ceremonial actions. On 7/18/2022 at 3:22 AM, DeighAnn said: WHY do you think it was SO BAD to be under the law? Shoot, they didn't even get to talk to GOD themselves and 'break one break them all', so EVEN having the teeniest tiniest little bitty sin, made NOT the least bit of difference, YOU WERE A SINNER. NO DIFFERENT than the WORST most unrepentant sinner. I don't think that is necessarily accurate. There definitely seems be degrees of punishment for transgressions and sins in the Law - not "one size fits all". A willing sinner is definitely seen differently than an ignorant sinner, and a heavy sinner from a standard sinner. If you notice the context of the verse you refer to in your quote above, you'll see that the author is alluding to the 10 commandments when he makes this statement. And indeed if you violate one of the 10 commandments, that is as bad a breaking them all. For what good is it if you keep all 9 commandments and yet kill a man? Or keep all 9 and yet hate your mother and father? And yes, the Sabbath is one of those 10 too. The 10 commandments are the royal commandments, written in stone, which have to be kept in their entirety and they are not culturally based or gender based. All must be kept, regardless of situation. But as for the transgression of becoming unclean by eating unclean animals - have you noticed their doesn't seem to be a punishment listed in the Law for this? That's not to say that it is okay to do, as we must be clean. But I'm trying to highlight for you the differences between the Laws and the consequences for breaking them. The Law is a guide on how to walk righteously. That guide doesn't only warn us of severe dangers and mandatory rules but also teaches us both good behaviours and best practices "so that it will be well with us". Therefore, the sin of violating the Sabbath is far worse than the sin of touching a dead body (for example). Both violations are wrong but both have different consequences. However, the word "sin" simply means "missing the target". So violating the former commandment (a weekly occurrence) makes you a "sinner" but violating the the latter (a one time violation) makes you guilty of sin. I think there is a subtle difference in that. Peace. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted August 2, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.64 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2022 11 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said: Hi @DeighAnn You are quite right. You cannot fulfil a law so that it doesn't need to be followed again - with only very few exceptions and technicalities. When the Messiah said He came to fulfil the Law, it seems that He meant to show us how to walk it perfectly and completely. In this way, the Messiah was raising the Law up and making it probe deeper into our hearts and thoughts rather than just outside deeds and ceremonial actions. I don't think that is necessarily accurate. There definitely seems be degrees of punishment for transgressions and sins in the Law - not "one size fits all". A willing sinner is definitely seen differently than an ignorant sinner, and a heavy sinner from a standard sinner. If you notice the context of the verse you refer to in your quote above, you'll see that the author is alluding to the 10 commandments when he makes this statement. And indeed if you violate one of the 10 commandments, that is as bad a breaking them all. For what good is it if you keep all 9 commandments and yet kill a man? Or keep all 9 and yet hate your mother and father? And yes, the Sabbath is one of those 10 too. The 10 commandments are the royal commandments, written in stone, which have to be kept in their entirety and they are not culturally based or gender based. All must be kept, regardless of situation. But as for the transgression of becoming unclean by eating unclean animals - have you noticed their doesn't seem to be a punishment listed in the Law for this? That's not to say that it is okay to do, as we must be clean. But I'm trying to highlight for you the differences between the Laws and the consequences for breaking them. The Law is a guide on how to walk righteously. That guide doesn't only warn us of severe dangers and mandatory rules but also teaches us both good behaviours and best practices "so that it will be well with us". Therefore, the sin of violating the Sabbath is far worse than the sin of touching a dead body (for example). Both violations are wrong but both have different consequences. However, the word "sin" simply means "missing the target". So violating the former commandment (a weekly occurrence) makes you a "sinner" but violating the the latter (a one time violation) makes you guilty of sin. I think there is a subtle difference in that. Peace. Thank you for the response. Well put. Maybe you could answer a couple questions for me, first being, before Christ came and brought in the New Covenant, Gods people when they died under the law of sin and death either died 'perfect' or 'in sin' under the law. (or like Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob 38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him). What happened to the soul/spirit/bodies of those who died 'perfect' as opposed to one who died in sin? How did Jesus defeating death, paying the penalty for sin, and the ransom for souls in prison, change what happened at death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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