Faith and Works

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh wrote:

Well so far, I have proven that I am not misunderstanding anything.

[EricH]

Shiloh wrote:

Well so far, I have proven that I am not misunderstanding anything.

[Guest shiloh357]

Justification and rightousness to come from the same root. Justification does not mean that the person is made righteous. It means they are declared righteous or acquitted.

He who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Romans 4:25 NASB

Jesus was delivered to death because of our sin. He was raised up not because we are righteous, but as proof that God has declared us righteouse as a result of what Christ did

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Rom 5:18 NASB

Throough the sin of onee person all were condemned (declared guilty by God), through the one act of rigteousness (dikaiomatos) justification (dikaiosin) resulted (declared righteous or innocent by God)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you EricH!! Right on!!

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote to Erich:

Thank you EricH!! Right on!

My Response:

Sorry, no offense, ERich, but you are both in error.

You guys need to get you a good Theological dictionary!

Of course, dictionaries are great tools.

However, Theological dictionaries are even better tools!

The following I had taken from "Christian Research & Apologetic Ministries" Theological dictionary today:

Justify, Justification means to be made righteous.

It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins.

It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless.

This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus.

". . . having now been justified by His blood . . ." (Rom. 5:9)

When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrfice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin.

This declaration of innocent is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's law.

". . . without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb.9:22).

The justification, the justice of God fell upon Himself -- Jesus.

We receive mercy -- we are not judged according to our sins.

And grace is shed upon us -- we receive eternal life.

This justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24), by faith (Rom, 3:28) because Jesus bore our guilt (Isaiah 53:12).

By the way, I found it interesting that the theological dictionary opens even by first stating just exactly what I have been saying you which we said read above '' to be justified is to be made righteous."

Edited September 30, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[EricH]

I can't really speak to the dictionary you are using as it is not one that is well known to me. Nor was it one that was in any of the bibliographies in my MDiv or MA programs.

I consulted Louw and Nida as well as Strongs. In additon I consulted several evangelical theologies (Grudem for example)

All of them indicate that justification means to declare righteous. In addition all of the Greek tools I use indicate the same thing. For example Bauer's Greek English lexicon also defines it as such.

So with all due respect to your dictionary, it doesn't really line up with the standard Greel lexicons or the standard theologies are saying. Is there a place on line that I could look up the ministry that produced your dictionary, or see the dictionary itself?

In addition, I think you have misunderstood the quote you provided:

Justify, Justification means to be made righteous.

It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins.

It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless.

This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus.

". . . having now been justified by His blood . . ." (Rom. 5:9)

When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrfice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin.

This declaration of innocent is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's law.

". . . without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb.9:22).

The justification, the justice of God fell upon Himself -- Jesus.

We receive mercy -- we are not judged according to our sins.

And grace is shed upon us -- we receive eternal life.

This justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24), by faith (Rom, 3:28) because Jesus bore our guilt (Isaiah 53:12).

Your dictionary does not say we are made to be righteous. It says we are declared righteous based on the work that Jesus did on the cross. Your quote "it is a divine act where the sinner is declared innocent of their sins."

In other words it is a legal transaction by which God now looks at the shed blood of Christ rather than the sins of the individual. They are declared righteous by God, not based on their own sinlessness, but on the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Your quote also says "it is not that the sinner is now sinless", but "is declared righteous"

So on further inspection your dictionary is right. Your interpretation of the dictionary is wrong. The only part I disagree with is the first line. But after that they clarify what they mean. I think the first line was simply a lack of clarity, that was later clarified in the rest of the verbage

Thanks,

Eric

[Fiosh]

I can't really speak to the dictionary you are using as it is not one that is well known to me. Nor was it one that was in any of the bibliographies in my MDiv or MA programs.

I consulted Louw and Nida as well as Strongs. In additon I consulted several evangelical theologies (Grudem for example)

All of them indicate that justification means to declare righteous. In addition all of the Greek tools I use indicate the same thing. For example Bauer's Greek English lexicon also defines it as such.

So with all due respect to your dictionary, it doesn't really line up with the standard Greel lexicons or the standard theologies are saying. Is there a place on line that I could look up the ministry that produced your dictionary, or see the dictionary itself?

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got curious, eric.

It's a dictionary compiled by the "Cristian Research and Apologetic Ministries" org. and is available on their website. The "organization" is basically a guy in Idaho with a degree and a computer.

[Guest shiloh357]

C.A.R.M. is one guy. Unlike most dictionaries, and encyclopdedias that reflect the work of a team of scholars, C.A.R.M. is basically ONE man's take on things. It is purely subjective, and is not necessarily an objective understanding. The initial statement was merely a misstatement on his part. It was an unfortunate miswording, but if you examine the content of what is said on down in his article, he goes on to show that justification is declarative and forensic, and does not reflect the inner condition of a believer, but rather the external relationship between the believer and God. For example, he says:

It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus.". . . having now been justified by His blood . . ." (Rom. 5:9) When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrfice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin. This declaration of innocent is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's law.

Even your source is talking about declarative righteousness. It is true that God sees as sinless, but that does not mean we are indeed sinless. He sees us through Christ's blood. It is a declaration of innocent based upon faith, but is not infusion of righteousness nor the actual eradication of sin.

If you want to deal with dictionaries and other resources, fine. Here are few source for your reading pleasure:

From the Internationa Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

Justification

jus-ti-fi-kā

[EricH]

I can't really speak to the dictionary you are using as it is not one that is well known to me. Nor was it one that was in any of the bibliographies in my MDiv or MA programs.

I consulted Louw and Nida as well as Strongs. In additon I consulted several evangelical theologies (Grudem for example)

All of them indicate that justification means to declare righteous. In addition all of the Greek tools I use indicate the same thing. For example Bauer's Greek English lexicon also defines it as such.

So with all due respect to your dictionary, it doesn't really line up with the standard Greel lexicons or the standard theologies are saying. Is there a place on line that I could look up the ministry that produced your dictionary, or see the dictionary itself?

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I got curious, eric.

It's a dictionary compiled by the "Cristian Research and Apologetic Ministries" org. and is available on their website. The "organization" is basically a guy in Idaho with a degree and a computer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually as I read the quote, the dictionary appears to be saying what Shiloh and I are saying (other than the fist line that indicates that justification means the sinner is now righteous). Namely that justification is an act of God whereby He declares the sinner acquitted based on the work of Jesus. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but rather that God now sees the sinner based on Jesus righteousness. It is a legal transaction, for lack of a better term.

I think the dictionary was right (other than lack of clarity in the first line), the interpretation of the dictionary was lacking.

[Jake for Jesus]

EricH --- go to www.carm.org

And do a search! You will find it!

By the way, my spiritual father, and the person who helped me most in my early walk with God, was Greek Scholar and quailfied to teach Greek on the university level. He was a Bible expositor engaged in unfolding primary doctrine, and this I how I first came to know this. But that was a good many years ago.

Now that you have some real interest in searching this out. I don't believe you will have much problem doing so on the net. Any way, I am glad your attitude is such that you would want to seek it out. You are apparently more interested in what is true, not in just wanting to be right.

I wished more of us could be like you!

Edited September 30, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

EricH --- go to www.carm.org

And do a search! You will find it!

By the way, my spiritual father, and the person who helped me most in my early walk with God, was Greek Scholar and quailfied to teach Greek on the university level. He was a Bible expositor engaged in unfolding primary doctrine, and this I how I first came to know this. But that was a good many years ago.

Now that you have some real interest in searching this out. I don't believe you will have much problem doing so on the net. Any way, I am glad your attitude is such that you would want to seek it out. You are apparently more interested in what is true, not in just wanting to be right.

I wished more of us could be like you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only one bent upon being right, is you. You can't defend your position and even the quotes you use say you are mistaken about justification. Even a simple examination of Strong's demonstrates that you are mistaken. Your pride won't let you admit it. Your "spiritual father" may have been a Greek scholar, but you are not.

but here is another Greek Scholar for you:

dikaiōsis

Thayer Definition:

1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer