Faith and Works

[Jake for Jesus]

Fiosh wrote:

I have a suggestion.

To be sure we are all understanding one another, could you define these terms?

faith

works

fruits

justification

righteousness

salvation

saved

It seems to me that at times you have taken a verse that addresses justification or righteousness and applied it to salvation. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

My Response:

Please forgive my slow response, however. In having again read posts since you had posted it would appear someone has already answered your question.

What this discussion was intended to be about is the relationship between faith and works. I think you may not had understood what the discussion is about.

Fruits, justification, or whatever are themes of the Bible, but is not this discussion. I think some others may have misunderstood what this discussion is about also based on some posts I have read.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

Nebula wrote:

. . . . looking back at the debate which started this whole thing -

I am wondering if this is the issue we keep bumping heads over:

It all started with disagreement over the purpose/ observance of "the law."

My Response:

Yes, but this is a difference topic. It's not about the purpose of the law.

Nor, about law and grace.

What I had intended in starting this discussion was to be about the relationship between faith and works. However, I can see how you may would think that for reasons of my posts on the last thread.

Perhaps after the next post it may be more clear.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FAITH AND WORKS

What does it profit, my brethen, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and desitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe --- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see faith was working togather with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fullfiled which says, "Abraham belived God, and he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent then out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

----- JAMES 2:14-26

In this passage James gives several examples to illustrate the connection between faith and works. He speaks of a Christian who sends away a fellow believer, hungry and naked, with empty words of comfort but without food or clothing.

He speaks also of the demons who believe in the existence of the one true God but find no comfort, only fear, in their belief.

He speaks also of the harlot Rabab in Jericho who received and protected Joshua's messengers.

However, it is in the last verse 26, that James sums up his teaching about tbe connection between the body and the spirit. He says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith, provides the key to understanding how faith without works is dead also.

Thus reference to the spirit, in connection with faith, provides the key to understanding how faith operates in the life of the believer.

Let's look at 2 Corinthians 4:13 and see what Paul said about the nature of faith:

But since we have the same Spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke,: we also believe and therefore speak.

Here Paul states that true, scriptural faith is something spiritual --- it is the spirit of faith. Through this we are able to understand James's example of the body and spirit.

In the natural order, so long as a man is alive, his spirit dwells within his body. Every action of the man's body is an expression of his spirit within the man, though invisible, are cleary revealed through the behavior and the actions of the man's body. When the spirit finally leaves the man's body, the body ceases from all its actions and becomes lifeless. The lifeless inactivity of the body indicates that the spirit no longer dwells within.

So it is the spirit of faith within the true Christain. This spirit of faith is alive and active. It brings down the very life of God Himself, in Christ, to dwell within the believers heart. This life of God within the believer takes control of his whole nature --- his desires, his thoughts, his words, his actions. The believer begins to think, speak and act in an entirely new way ---- a way that is totally different from what he would have done previously. He says and does things which he neither could nor would have done before the life of God came in, through faith, to take control of him. His new way of living ---- his new "works," as James calls it ------ is the evidence and the expression of the faith in his heart.

But outward actions are not manifested in the man's life --- his works do not correspond to the faith he professes --- this proves there is no real faith in him. Without this living faith, expressed in corresponding actions, his profession of Christianitry is no better than a dead body after the spirit has left it.

We may briefly consider, in order, each of the four examples which James gives and see how each illustrates this principle.

First, James speaks of the Christian who see a fellow Christian naked and hungry and says to him, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but nevertheless does not offer him either food or clothing.

Obviously, this man's words were not sincere. If he had really desired to see the other person warmed and fed, he would have given him food and clothing. The fact that he did not do it indicates that he did not really care. His words were an empty professioin without any inward reality.

So it is when a Christian professes faith but does not act according to that faith. Such faith is insincere, worthless, dead.

Second, James speaks of demons, who believe in the one true God but tremble. Those demons have no doubt whatever about the existence of God, but they know also that they are the unrepentant enemies of God, under His sentence of wrath and judgment. Therefore, their faith brings them no comfort, but only fear.

This shows that true, scripture faith is always expressed in submission and obedience to God. Faith that continues stubborn and disobedient is dead faith that cannot save one from God's wrath and judgment.

Third, James gives us the example of faith as that given Paul in ROMANS 4 ------ the example of Abraham. Abraham believed God, and it was "accounted . . . to him for righteousness" in GENESIS 15:6.

Living faith in God's Word came into Abraham's heart. Thereafter, this faith was expressed outwordly in continal walk of submission and obedience to God. Each act of obedience that Abraham performed developed and strengthen his faith and prepared him for the next act.

The final test of Abraham's faith came in GENESIS 22, when God askeed him to offer up his son, Isaac, in sacrifice (see also Hebrews 11).

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaace . . . accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead

----- HEBREWS 17-19

By this time, through continual exercise in obedience, Abraham's faith had been developed and strengthened even to the place where he really believed that God could raise up and restore his son to him from the dead. This faith in Abraham;s heart found its outward expression in his perfect willingness to offer up Isaac, and it was only the direct intervention of God that kept him from actually slaying his son.

Concerning this James says:

Faith was working togather with his works, and by works faith was made perfect.

----- JAMES 2:22

We may therefore sum up Abraham's experience as follows: His walk with God began with faith in his heart in God's Word. This faith expressed itself outwardly in life of submission and obedience. Each act of obedience strengthened and developed his faith and made him ready for the next test. Finally, this interworking of faith and works in his life brought him to the climax of his faith --- to the point where he was willing even to offer up Isaac.

Do you see a lesson in this for us as Christian believers?

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

Re: Replying to Faith and Works~

I believe that as a Christian we must find Balance between the two of them.

My salvation depends on the balance of both of them. Not only Faith but works too.

Snow4JC

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I should know better then to add my two cents to other's topics.

I understand the fact that my salvation is Free and from Yeshua. However, I do believe one must find a balance between Faith and Works.

There are already too many christians who sit back and do nothing when it comes to helping others.

There is so much more to Yeshua's Ministry.

Snow

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sorry Snow, but your remarks were simply incorrect. Salvation does not depend on both faith and works. Works definitely have their proper place in the life of a believer, but there is simply no Scripture that says that salvation is dependant on both faith and works.

[Fiosh]

Fiosh wrote:

I have a suggestion. 

To be sure we are all understanding one another, could you define these terms?

faith

works

fruits

justification

righteousness

salvation

saved

It seems to me that at times you have taken a verse that addresses justification or righteousness and applied it to salvation.  But perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

My Response:

Please forgive my slow response, however. In having again read posts since you had posted it would appear someone has already answered your question.

What this discussion was intended to be about is the relationship between faith and works. I think you may not had understood what the discussion is about.

Fruits, justification, or whatever are themes of the Bible, but is not this discussion. I think some others may have misunderstood what this discussion is about also based on some posts I have read.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Jake,

I say this in a loving way, but do you know that you have a way of sounding very condescending?

Anyway, I do understand the intent of this discussion, believe me. We've driven this one around the block many times.

The reason I asked for your definitions, is that on several occasions, you have taken passages that addressed "justification" or "righteousness" and applied them to "salvation".

I was wondering if you saw them all to be synonymous.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi Jake,

I say this in a loving way, but do you know that you have a way of sounding very condescending?

He thinks he is teaching us all something that we don't know.

[Jake for Jesus]

Fiosh wrote:

I have a suggestion.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Jake for Jesus]

Shiloh wrote:

He thinks he is teaching us all something that we don't know.

My Response:

I am sorry, that you have that kind of attitude.

On the other hand, upon first coming to this bulletion board. Someone here had privately told me that you have set yourself up as a teacher here, and that you tend to not to be able to tolerate the views of others, that may be different from your own. Therefore this comes as no surprise to me.

Finally, I want to say, that this is the last time I will respond to a post or posts of this nature. If you want to discuss the Bible. I have interest in that. But not in discussions of a personal nature that leads to strife.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Jake for Jesus

[Guest shiloh357]

The reason I asked for your definitions, is that on several occasions, you have taken passages that addressed "justification" or "righteousness" and applied them to "salvation".

Both apply directly to salvation. To be "justified" is to be declared "righteous." It means to be declared in "rightstanding." That is what righteousness is. The moment we are saved, we are declared by God to be in rightstanding with Him.

We are not "made" righteous at that time. Righteousness is imputed to us by faith, just as it was to Abraham. (Read Romans 4) Justification is the first step in the process of salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Someone here had privately told me that you have set yourself up as a teacher here, and that you tend to not to be able to tolerate the views of others, that may be different from your own.

No, its just that I know the Bible well enough to distinguish between truth and snake oil. We have a lot of people who come to this board, thinking they are going to straighten us out, and set us aright. They are the ones who are usually the most offended at me. When someone knows the Bible and knows what they believe, they won't be led about by the nose, and suck up whatever this or that person says. The "intolerance" accusation is just an immature rant by those get offended when they are challenged.